Swordsage / Warblade Min maxing progression (3.5)

[zOrKeR]

Before we start:

We met a new DM for  a D&D campaign, he told us EVERYTHING that is 3.5 material is allowed( except evil characters).
Recently i came a cross descriptions of the Warblade and the swordsage classes as some kind of wuxia heroes, that intrigued me.

In the end i came here for help in building... the PC.

The general idea is :

1) TWF Swordsage/Warblade
2) 2 handed warblade

Ps: i know next to nothing about the TOB, so i need all the help i can get.

[phaedrusxy]

This is exactly what you need to read first. Don't be insulted by the name. It's a great guide.

What you want to do is alternate levels so that you maximize your high level manuevers known, then probably go into a martial adept prestige class (PrC) because they'll progress both of your base classes' initiator levels with each PrC level.

Edit: Now you've really got me thinking about how to build a SS/WB/Eternal Blade

Here is what I think I'd do, if you think the game will progress to higher levels:

Snow Elf (Frostburn) Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1/Warblade 3/SS +1/WB +3/Eternal Blade 9 (SB3/SS2/WB6/EB9)

Feats: Weapon Finesse (bonus), Discipline Focus (SS1), TWF (1), Knowledge Devotion (3), ? (6), Craven (9), ?
Benefits: You start out with Weapon Finesse, so you can focus on Dex as your primary stat. You get Int to damage at 3rd, so you can also focus on Int. You also get a small boost to attack/damage from Knowledge checks starting at 3rd. So your main stats are going to be Dex, Int, and Con. At 9th, you pick up a couple of Sneak Attack dice which you get to add your character level to. You get a penalty to fear checks, but if you pick up the Diamond Mind Will save counter this will almost never matter.

WB IL is 18 at 20th. SS IL is 15 at 20th.

The main Con for this build is that you don't get Island in Time pre-epic, but... I think planning on an ability you only get to use at 20th level for any "normal" D&D game is insane, anyway. Most games never make it there. Better off to plan for maximum playability at all levels.

With this build, you'll be the knowledgeable and graceful elf warrior who is a blender in combat, and exploits the weaknesses of his enemies' defenses to great effect.

[DaCraw]

While ToB prestige classes do advance both Swordsage and Warblade simultaneously, it's worth noting that Swordsage and Warblade levels only stack for the purposes of Initiator Level at a rate of 2 levels / IL (the same as any other multiclass IL progression). So Warblade 6 / Swordsage 8 has a Warblade IL of 6+(8/2) = 10 (max 5th level maneuvers) and a Swordsage IL of 8+(6/2) = 11 (max 6th level maneuvers). Since you need IL17 to get 9th level maneuvers for a given initiator class, you can only take 6 levels of any other class or prestige class (not counting ToB maneuver granting prestige classes). This means a maximum of Warblade 6 / Swordsage 6 / PrC 8.

I would be hesitant more than 4 in Swordsage (it's only a 3/4 BAB class, 5th gives you 1 maneuver known and +1 initiative but loses a BAB). Note that due to rounding, you should typically go for an even number of multiclass levels. That said, Swordsage 6 only gives you 1 (swordsage) maneuver known and +1 to all saves over Swordsage 5, so it may be that the benefit you'd get from a particular level of a PrC outweighs this. Warblade 5 offers a bonus feat (which can help with PrC Prereqs)

As for which PrCs are worth looking into, for a TWFer Bloodclaw Master is hard to overlook. You'll only want 2 or 3 levels, but BcM2 negates the penalty for TWFing, while 3 is the best cutoff in terms of maneuvers/stances known. Master of Nine gives an obscene amount of maneuvers known and readied, but it requires maneuvers from a wide range of schools (no problem) and has 5 feat prereqs. 2 of these are useful, one is situational, and 2 are feat taxes. Thankfully, one of them is on the Warblade bonus feat list.

One interesting option, if you have a wizard or sorcerer in the group, is to go with unarmed strikes. Superior Unarmed Strike gives you monk progression -4. Taking a 1 level dip in Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) upgrades this to monk progression (except for level 20, where you're still 2d8). Get your wizard to cast Greater Mighty Wallop on you (1 hour/level, increases weapon size by 1 category/4 levels, giving you 8d8 damage at level 16). Greater Two weapon Fighting gives you 7 attacks, Raging Mongoose (Tiger Claw 8) increases this to 11, haste to 12, and Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind 9) doubles this to 24 attacks, each dealing 8d8 + whatever damage. Note that you have to spend a round not using any maneuvers between each use of this (although you can still full attack normally).

The build for this requires you to be human and take 2 flaws.

Swordsage 4-5 / Warblade 5 / Fist of the Forest 1 / Bloodclaw Master 4-5 / Master of Nine 5;
Alternatively, Swordsage 4 / Warblade 5 / Barbarian 1 / Fist of the Forest 1 / Bloodclaw Master 4 / Master of Nine 5 (gains pounce, but incurs Multiclass XP penalties).

Feats: Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Attack, Improved / Greater / TWF, Adaptive Style, Dodge, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Superior Unarmed Strike.

I leave the exact ordering of the levels, maneuvers, and feats taken as an exercise for the reader. It can be done, I'm just not sure my approach is optimal.

This will get you level 9 maneuvers (using Warblade mechanics for maneuvers granted by PrCs), penalty free TWF with the ability to add 4 attacks to a full attack as a swift action, the to make two full attacks in a round, Wis and Con to AC, Int to Ref saves, and a few other things. That said, you're rather MAD, so those ability-to-defence features aren't as good as they sound. You'll need at least int 12 to make the skill prereqs, and you need at least 19 dex for GTWF. You'll want high Str/Dex/Con, mid Wis/Int, dump Cha. Also note that this build is EXTREMELY feat starved. You'll need a reasonably high point buy or stat roll just to make up for the loss of Weapon Finesse. Alternatively, you may need to consider giving up Greater TWF for Weapon Finesse...

Another interesting option is to go with a BardBlade Build. A basic rundown can be found Here. Begin by taking the Bard Inspire Courage ability, buff it with items and the Dragonfire Inspiration line of feats (Dragon Magic) and Word of Creation (exalted; Book of Exalted Deeds), possibly also taking the feat Song of the White Raven to stack your Bard and Warblade levels for the purpose of IC (although this is not necessary, as I will soon show). You end up with +8-12d6 sonic damage per attack. Then add on the Warblade ability to put out a LOT of attacks per round. Add a one-level Barbarian dip for pounce (unless your DM is using the multiclass xp penalty rules) and blend everything in sight. This can also be combined with Sublime Chord and Jade Pheonix Mage to create a build with slightly lower inspire courage bonuses but with respectable spellcasting. IIRC you need to choose between 9th level spells or maneuvers; you can't get both pre-epic.

[Jackinthegreen]

TWF tends to have problems due to the feat requirements to get it even started, plus there's the issue of having to pay for two weapons instead of one.  2h works pretty well from the start and can be made even better through Power Attack and Shock Trooper.

The question here is: Do you want a more graceful character with better Dexterity, or a powerhouse with more Strength?  What kinds of allowances is your DM okay making? (such as letting the drow fighter ACF work for other races because technically it doesn't require being a drow and is very nice for a dex-focused fighter).

When he says "everything" is he including Dragon Magazine in there?  I would hope he's not including shitty homebrew and such, or at least has enough sense to verify any hombrew and if it's actually any good.

[zOrKeR]

Thanks for everyone's imput.

@Jack:

is he including Dragon Magazine in there

  I don't think dragon is allowed(Simply because almost no one uses it where i live)

 Three other things:

1) Except using the wayback machine, how do i see the other pages linke into the tome  of battle for dummies?
2) Is also an unarmed character possible either Swordsage or warblade?
3)  A full support Char is doable using white raven?

[Jackinthegreen]

There is an unarmed variant of swordsage.  Take a look in the Adaptation heading under it which is on page 20 in Tome of Battle.

Also, if you think being able to throw melee weapons around as a full attack is fun, you'll want to look at the Bloodstorm Blade class.

Tome of Battle for Dummies, V2.  That might have updated links.

[DaCraw]

Thanks for everyone's imput.

@Jack:

is he including Dragon Magazine in there

  I don't think dragon is allowed(Simply because almost no one uses it where i live)

 Three other things:

1) Except using the wayback machine, how do i see the other pages linke into the tome  of battle for dummies?
2) Is also an unarmed character possible either Swordsage or warblade?
3)  A full support Char is doable using white raven?

1) Unfortunately a lot of useful pages were lost when the Gleemax forums were emigrated to WotC. Wayback machine may well be your best bet.
2) Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw all list unarmed strike as a favoured weapon. Mechanically, this has little impact other that the fact that you can choose unarmed strike for your free Weapon Focus from Swordsage1.

[DaCraw]

There is an unarmed variant of swordsage.  Take a look in the Adaptation heading under it which is on page 20 in Tome of Battle.

Also, if you think being able to throw melee weapons around as a full attack is fun, you'll want to look at the Bloodstorm Blade class.

Tome of Battle for Dummies, V2.  That might have updated links.

The problem with Bloodstorm Blade is that it does not grant maneuvers nor advance initiator level. It is functionally the same as a PrC found in any other splat book.

[phaedrusxy]

You can just manually scroll through the rest of the Tome of Battle for Dummies thread by clicking on the different page links at the bottom of the first page. The hyperlinks in the first post most often link to some other post/page within the same thread.

[zOrKeR]

Welli think that i forgot the most important part: The  Motley cr.......Group

1 Warrior (1st time player)
1 Barbarian
1 Megalomaniac Priest/Mage
1 Me.

Since the group is mostly melee i think i'll try a dip into white raven, because with my party composition it has great potential.

Argh always torn between Warblade/Swordsage T.T

A Warblade/Swordsage combination is feasible or it will be gimped?

[Jackinthegreen]

I would hope the "warrior" player is actually using fighter and not the NPC warrior class.  If he is using warrior, smack him over the head and point to fighter!

There are no classes named simply "priest" or "mage."  Do you mean cleric/sorcerer or something?  You must be specific because we won't know what you're talking about if you use terms the game itself doesn't use.

White Raven has plenty of good things with it.  The feat Song of the White Raven is great if you want to buff others while having more durability than regular bards.  You won't get that with swordsage though.

Do note that swordsages are generally thought of as the weakest of the martial adepts, mostly due to their crappy maneuver recovery mechanic.  The Adaptive Style feat is pretty much necessary for them.

[zOrKeR]

@Jack: Ops that a case of mistranslation where i came from fighter/warrior Mean the same thing XD, anyways he uses the PH handbook core class.

Well  i got the general idea of what i want to do, any other  feat suggestion for a warblade/swordsage ?

I think with both classes TWF is much cooler.

[Jackinthegreen]

In that case, you might want to look at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585 to really get into the nuts and bolts of TWF and such.

[zOrKeR]

Thanks a lot jack, that link was what i needed

[phaedrusxy]

Another feat I forgot, but which you'll definitely want: Shadow Blade

That plus Knowledge Devotion plus the bit of SA dice from Assassin's Stance + Craven adds up to quite a bit of bonus damage, which is exactly what you need to be an effective TWFer. You can also boost this with some of your maneuvers (mostly boosts).

You'll also want some way to make a full attack after moving (or gain extra move actions). There are a few items and feats to help you out with this. The Belt of Battle and Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker are two items. A dip into (cloistered) cleric for Travel Devotion is another possibility. You can also get Knowledge Devotion as a bonus feat with this dip, but it will delay entry into Eternal Blade even more (if you even go for that PrC).

[Nezkrul]

Time Stands Still does not double your attacks, it only gives you two full attack actions

[DaCraw]

Time Stands Still does not double your attacks, it only gives you two full attack actions

You are right about that. I misread Raging Mongoose to apply the attacks to a full attack action (which you get two of under Time Stands Still). Instead it just grants you them when you activate the boost. This gives it less synergy with Time Stands Still, but lets you add the extra attacks to a standard action (say, a charge or a strike)

A GTWFer with Haste, Raging Mongoose, and Time Stands Still would get 20 attacks, not 24. Still enough to turn most enemies into chunky salsa if you have a decent source of bonus damage (Sneak Attack, Dragonfire Inspiration + Words of Creation, Superior Unarmed Strike + Greater Mighty Wallop, etc).

[RobbyPants]

What kinds of allowances is your DM okay making? (such as letting the drow fighter ACF work for other races because technically it doesn't require being a drow and is very nice for a dex-focused fighter).

I'm assuming this is in DotU, which I don't have, but what does this ACF do, and what do you swap out?

[Jackinthegreen]

What kinds of allowances is your DM okay making? (such as letting the drow fighter ACF work for other races because technically it doesn't require being a drow and is very nice for a dex-focused fighter).

I'm assuming this is in DotU, which I don't have, but what does this ACF do, and what do you swap out?

Does no one have the ACF thread bookmarked?  http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8732.0

Basically it trades heavy armor and tower shield profs for +2 initiative and Dex to weapon damage against flat-footed foes.

[zOrKeR]

I'm going to post again in this tread because i'm indecisive as a hyperactive hamster.  So don't kill me .

Between swordsage and warblabe for two handed fighting stile who's the most suitable?( i think warblade because of the iron mountain school), is there among the handbooks/guides one for two handed fighting?