Author Topic: Help me make this encounter challenging.  (Read 13924 times)

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Help me make this encounter challenging.
« on: November 13, 2013, 12:49:00 PM »
My PC's are overly good at infiltrating an enemy's base, ambushing, and eliminating the foes.  They are in the middle of such a mission against some advanced fire giants, and they are wading through everything with little difficulty.

I modeled this series of encounters off the suggested Heroic encounter schedule from the front of Lords of Madness:
(click to show/hide)

They have waded through the blue encounters, and as far as I can recall, one of the PC's got damaged once.

Two of them are under the effects of greater invisibility, and two of them (one visible, one only if he is made visible) can spam Greater Mirror Image whenever I get any chance of damaging them.  It's getting to the point that I have little to no chance of putting them in danger.

Most of the Fire Giant Clerics' spells are based around buffing themselves, and some fantastic caster level checks on a greater dispel magic stripped the 10th level cleric (w/ practiced spellcaster) of his best buffs.

We ended the session with the EL 17 encounter wrapped up, except for one Fire Giant Clr 6/Ftr 2, who has about 150 hit points left.

The upcoming final encounter is composed of the following:

EL +3:   EL 19:   One CR 17 Fire Giant Wizard 15, one CR 16 Legendary Fire Giant (Titan),
               one CR 15 Fire Giant Clr 10, two CR 9 Greater Fire Elementals,
                  (plus two CR 6 advanced Magma Hurlers)

The Legendary Fire Giant is basically a MM1 Titan with the Fire Subtype, and stripped of all its SLA's.  See it here.
The BBEG Fire Giant Wizard is actually a Wizard 10/Geometer 5, so one of his spellglyphed spells has a CL of 20th.
He has had 6 rounds to buff himself up since he was made aware of the PC intruders.

(click to show/hide)

The small cavern and tunnels where this encounter is happening has hundreds of human prisoners chained to the walls, so area affects will be very difficult for the PC's to use without killing those they are meant to save.  My plan is for the wizard to use Limited Wish to cast Consumptive Field, then cast Blackfire on one of the chained humans (they are packed tightly enough that it will just spread down the line of prisoners), and thus bump his CL up.  Against first and second level "commoners," the Con damage will knock them into negative hit points after three rounds or so, especially if he hits five of them with a magic missile.  If it happens to catch a PC with the Blackfire, all the better.

The one big issue he and the Titan will run into are the Greater Mirror Image spells.  I'm tempted to change the intended CR 15 Cleric 10 into three ~CR 12 Primordial Giant 4th level Sorcerers.  They'll basically just spam magic missiles and emit Invisibility Purge fields to counter the invisibility and mirror images.  If they concentrate their efforts, my PC's could get caught being attacked by the BBEG or the Titan with no immediate actions left to cast GMI again.

The treasure rewards of this adventure will be quite good (several Belts of Giant Strength +4, a headband of intellect +4, various rings and amulets, and no less than five Large +2 flaming adamantine longswords, plus some Large magical suits of full and half plate.  So far it has felt way too easy for them.

Thoughts or advice?

Offline Leopard

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2013, 03:35:07 PM »
Hmm, you could give the Legendary Giant and the Greater Elementals Great Cleave, so they can just cleave through all the mirror images.

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2013, 03:36:02 PM »
What's the party look like?  If the BSF can be turned into a capering idiot right from the word go, the Titan can likely do some damage to the softer members of the party.  Not to mention Disintegrating the main caster can do wonders for shaking up the party and breaking confidence.  Grease in the midst, despite being a level 1 spell, does nasty things to non-fliers, especially if the giants' brutes are prepared for it.  TK can turn really nasty if you've got even mundane things like acid lying around, and if the giants don't care about collateral damage to the slaves, can really put the good guys on a two-front battle quickly (and odds are, be more likely to hurt them as well than the favorite of lighting everything on fire, which I would think as fire giants they have a means of doing anyhow).

Did the giantess prepare a nice soggy mud bog near the door, per chance?  With a glamer on it (Silent Image comes to mind)?  Sets up nicely to trap the first sot to stumble onto it and sink like a stone into what will soon be stone floor.  Finally, between Dim. Door and Gaseous Form, this giantess should have an escape route planned, and it shouldn't be easy to get to in a normal body (pinholes leading 300' down to a room barely big enough to resume normal body, and then Dim. Door to another room sealed totally off from the rest of the place but with an escape tunnel that's trapped that only she knows about, with a small cache to grab on the go).  Prepare that bug out bag!

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2013, 03:41:49 PM »
What's the point of giving three fighter levels? Two fighter levels and one barbarian level would be drastically more effective. Add in lion barbarian for some easy pounce.

Or a warblade dip instead of the third fighter level for some sweet medium-level maneuvers.

Offline Risada

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 04:35:35 PM »
If the PCs like to cast a lot of stuff, get an Energy Transformation Field tied to Invisibility Purge or something...

Get some kind of Fire Giant with levels in War Weaver and go with the mass buffing tactic... Or make the clerics spam dispel magic while making use of Divine Defiance (from FCII) in order to counterspell without needing to ready actions.

Get one or more Velrocs and/or Spell Eaters, from Dragon Magic to help your big dudes. Spell disruption at its finest (although it can backfire your casters)

If possible, get Eye of the Oracle on your Wizard.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2013, 04:40:32 PM »
Presumably a Fire Giant community has an Adept or two.
Anyone of them could also take Leadership, opening up
that standard batch of goodies. 
So how much Divination Info do they get ?
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2013, 04:48:02 PM »
Hmm, you could give the Legendary Giant and the Greater Elementals Great Cleave, so they can just cleave through all the mirror images.
Does that actually work?  Hmm.... might need to do that...  It feels dirty, though.

What's the party look like?
Gestalt party, 16th level.
Half Elf Barbarian 13/Duskblade 3//Beguiler 15/Mindbender 1 (has Mindsight).
Human Wizard 6/3.0 Incantatrix 3/Iot7FV 7//Rogue 15/Fighter 1.
Human Saint Druid 14/Arcane Hierophant 1/LA 1//Sorcerer 11/Arc Hier/Stormcaster 3/LA +1 (Arcane Hierophant shares both "sides" for its level; Saint's LA is split between the two sides; Stormcaster was altered to get full casting).

Quote
If the BSF can be turned into a capering idiot right from the word go, the Titan can likely do some damage to the softer members of the party.  Not to mention Disintegrating the main caster can do wonders for shaking up the party and breaking confidence.
As a party of all casters, they all have good Will saves.  Ray spells are virtually useless unless I can short-circuit Greater Mirror Image.  The wizard won't have as many copies available, but is usually flying and invisible.

Quote
Grease in the midst, despite being a level 1 spell, does nasty things to non-fliers, especially if the giants' brutes are prepared for it.  TK can turn really nasty if you've got even mundane things like acid lying around, and if the giants don't care about collateral damage to the slaves, can really put the good guys on a two-front battle quickly (and odds are, be more likely to hurt them as well than the favorite of lighting everything on fire, which I would think as fire giants they have a means of doing anyhow).
The encounter is actually inside a semi-active volcano, with the lair in former magma tunnels that are no longer (very) active.  Grease may be alright against the Barb//Beguiler, as he currently has no means of flying. The other two are flying.  The telekinesis idea is decent.  The Druid just cast an 8th level spell that makes him immune to thrown weapons (Stormcloud or something, SpC), but the other two could be targeted.  Maybe the fire/acid weapon from Eberron...

Quote
Did the giantess prepare a nice soggy mud bog near the door, per chance?  With a glamer on it (Silent Image comes to mind)?  Sets up nicely to trap the first sot to stumble onto it and sink like a stone into what will soon be stone floor.
Again, two of three are flying, and the Wizard pretty much always has Arcane Sight up and running during encounters, so they'll see any trap like that.

Quote
Finally, between Dim. Door and Gaseous Form, this giantess should have an escape route planned, and it shouldn't be easy to get to in a normal body (pinholes leading 300' down to a room barely big enough to resume normal body, and then Dim. Door to another room sealed totally off from the rest of the place but with an escape tunnel that's trapped that only she knows about, with a small cache to grab on the go).  Prepare that bug out bag!
Not a bad plan.

I may give her a scroll of Limited Wish to get her a second time to use it.  The goal for the Fire Giant was to get back to Muspelheim; they accidentally got transported to Midgard.  The planes are remote (ala Eberron) with an added caster level check.  The goal was to use Limited Wish to cast Consumptive Field (to up his caster level), and then use another Limited Wish to cast Plane Shift.  But, while they happened to be here in Midgard, they were checking things out before heading home.  All that to say, she might just escape by heading back home, once the Consumptive Field has killed at least 9 people.

What's the point of giving three fighter levels? Two fighter levels and one barbarian level would be drastically more effective. Add in lion barbarian for some easy pounce.
The Fire Giants are Lawful Evil, and I used an on-line creature advancer to do it quickly.
Quote
Or a warblade dip instead of the third fighter level for some sweet medium-level maneuvers.
No ToB in this game.

If the PCs like to cast a lot of stuff, get an Energy Transformation Field tied to Invisibility Purge or something...

Get some kind of Fire Giant with levels in War Weaver and go with the mass buffing tactic... Or make the clerics spam dispel magic while making use of Divine Defiance (from FCII) in order to counterspell without needing to ready actions.

Get one or more Velrocs and/or Spell Eaters, from Dragon Magic to help your big dudes. Spell disruption at its finest (although it can backfire your casters)

If possible, get Eye of the Oracle on your Wizard.

I've already introduced my players to ETF.  I might pull that sucker out...  Maybe have that sucker go off the first round (he's had 6 rounds to buff up, so four of them could have been casting that).  It would be tight, given the cave layout, but I'll think about it.

Divine Defiance isn't a terrible idea.  I'm not sure how counterspelling would work if you can't see the caster (have to ID the spell as it's being cast).  But that's why some Primordial Giants with Invisibility Purge may be the way to go.

I don't have Dragon Magic, and have not really used things from it (with the exception of DFI in the PbP game).

Offline Risada

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2013, 05:02:33 PM »
Divine Defiance isn't a terrible idea.  I'm not sure how counterspelling would work if you can't see the caster (have to ID the spell as it's being cast).  But that's why some Primordial Giants with Invisibility Purge may be the way to go.

Battlemagic Perception or Spellcaster's Bane could help... Depending on the circumstances...

Offline Leopard

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2013, 05:17:17 PM »
Hmm, you could give the Legendary Giant and the Greater Elementals Great Cleave, so they can just cleave through all the mirror images.
Does that actually work?  Hmm.... might need to do that...  It feels dirty, though.
Don't see why it shouldn't work. Maybe keep the Giant the same and replace the Greater Fire Elementals with Earth Elementals, they have it stock and can come out of the walls or floor, might surprise them, don't know if Mindsight would still spot them there.

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2013, 06:10:51 PM »
Usually I post this video when people ask for help with dragons specifically but its good to keep in mind for every encounter.


In this case, Fire Giants are immune to fire. I would spam sooo many fireballs. Just, fireballs EVERYWHERE. The floor would be fire. Vents would be shooting fire at random intervals. There'd be a magic field that turns Cold Magic into Fire Magic.  There'd be "safe paths" for non-fire immune slaves but it'd cross the vents flames shoot out.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 07:24:35 PM »
Hmm, you could give the Legendary Giant and the Greater Elementals Great Cleave, so they can just cleave through all the mirror images.
Does that actually work?  Hmm.... might need to do that...  It feels dirty, though.
Don't see why it shouldn't work. Maybe keep the Giant the same and replace the Greater Fire Elementals with Earth Elementals, they have it stock and can come out of the walls or floor, might surprise them, don't know if Mindsight would still spot them there.

Turns out this is covered in the FAQ (for whatever that's worth).  It does indeed trigger great cleave.  Note to self...

Usually I post this video when people ask for help with dragons specifically but its good to keep in mind for every encounter.


In this case, Fire Giants are immune to fire. I would spam sooo many fireballs. Just, fireballs EVERYWHERE. The floor would be fire. Vents would be shooting fire at random intervals. There'd be a magic field that turns Cold Magic into Fire Magic.  There'd be "safe paths" for non-fire immune slaves but it'd cross the vents flames shoot out.
Fireballs which do an average of 35 damage, against PC's with Energy Resistance 30 up and running...

If the BBEG is lucky enough to catch the energy resistance with a targeted dispel magic, sure, I guess.  My luck hasn't been running that well of late.

But it would be thematic to tie a Fireball to an Energy Transformation Field.  Maybe the BBEG has a Rapid Spell version of ETF on a scroll; he's short one feat anyhow.  He'd keep it around for emergencies...

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2013, 07:30:39 PM »
A simple Antimagic Field would give that party setup a hellish time, especially if they came in flying or reliant on buffs. This goes double if the floor is hot enough to cause significant damage (even a simple 3d6/round will add up with the everloving QUICKNESS against enemies that take that long to kill).

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2013, 07:44:22 PM »
A simple Antimagic Field would give that party setup a hellish time, especially if they came in flying or reliant on buffs. This goes double if the floor is hot enough to cause significant damage (even a simple 3d6/round will add up with the everloving QUICKNESS against enemies that take that long to kill).

I think that's saved for the most evil dragon ever. :lmao

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2013, 07:46:16 PM »
I suppose it's too much to ask to have the EFT linked to a Summon Elemental Monolith...

Have the EFT linked to a Summon Monster VIII, getting another Greater Fire Elemental each time? They're only mooks compared to this party, but more mooks to deal with is probably better than fireballs dealing an average of 5 damage?

Offline CaptRory

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2013, 07:53:16 PM »
My thought for all the fire was as a way to get around the Invisibility/Mirror Image thing. Plus it is thematic for Fire Giants. Stick to the "Safe Path" or you risk being set on fire where billowing smoke an shooting flames risk giving your position away. Get hit by fireballs and crap and there goes the mirror images. The "safe path" greatly limits maneuverability which is one of the big benefits of Invisibility.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2013, 10:06:48 PM »
First, some questions.  Why doesn't the wizard have permanent see invisiblity or an extended version up?  A dispel might take it down, but at least it will eat a PC action to do it.  I see the wizard has true seeing prepared.  I assume the cleric does too.  Do you expect those will also get taken down by dispels?

For the non-casters, Pierce Magical Concealment (CAr 81-82) will solve the mirror image problems and some of the invisibility problems, though they'll still need a way to target the right square.  Casters are a bit trickier, they'll probably have to rely on self-buffs.  The Illusion bane (MIC 36-37) property lets you ignore the concealment from invisibility if you can hit the right square and dispel mirror images.  Hitting the party with a sculpted faerie fire or glitterdust would force them to dispel the effect on themselves rather than simply recasting the invisibility or dispelling the giants' buffs.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2013, 11:08:54 PM »
A simple Antimagic Field would give that party setup a hellish time, especially if they came in flying or reliant on buffs. This goes double if the floor is hot enough to cause significant damage (even a simple 3d6/round will add up with the everloving QUICKNESS against enemies that take that long to kill).

I think that's saved for the most evil dragon ever. :lmao
Hehe... yeah.

I suppose it's too much to ask to have the EFT linked to a Summon Elemental Monolith...

Have the EFT linked to a Summon Monster VIII, getting another Greater Fire Elemental each time? They're only mooks compared to this party, but more mooks to deal with is probably better than fireballs dealing an average of 5 damage?
I could make it all sorts of things.  The BBEG was largely based on a stat block from Exemplars of Evil.  I kept a lot of the same spells simply due to time constraints.  Now that I've got this extra week before the wizard makes his grant entrance, I'm certainly open to revising his spellbook and prepared spells.  If nothing else the Greater Fire Elementals would be able to set the captured humans on fire, thus more likely to put them between -9 and 0, and fuel more into the Consumptive Field.  It's not a bad plan.  But maybe there are better spells to have cast by the ETF.  I'm open to suggestions, but would prefer something that won't outright slay all the captive humans.  A fireball, at best, would kill a handful of them.  Anything larger than a 20-foot burst, and a lot more will die.

My thought for all the fire was as a way to get around the Invisibility/Mirror Image thing. Plus it is thematic for Fire Giants. Stick to the "Safe Path" or you risk being set on fire where billowing smoke an shooting flames risk giving your position away. Get hit by fireballs and crap and there goes the mirror images. The "safe path" greatly limits maneuverability which is one of the big benefits of Invisibility.
No, the spell even specifically says that getting fireballed has the images appear burned. Thus, area spells can't destroy images.  (See here for more.)

First, some questions.  Why doesn't the wizard have permanent see invisiblity or an extended version up?  A dispel might take it down, but at least it will eat a PC action to do it.  I see the wizard has true seeing prepared.  I assume the cleric does too.  Do you expect those will also get taken down by dispels?
They certainly could have permanent see invisibility up.  That would be appropriate for the final encounter.  The wizard would have done so previously with use of Consumptive Field, so the chances of it getting dispelled on him would be slim.  Good idea, thanks.

Quote
For the non-casters, Pierce Magical Concealment (CAr 81-82) will solve the mirror image problems and some of the invisibility problems, though they'll still need a way to target the right square.  Casters are a bit trickier, they'll probably have to rely on self-buffs.  The Illusion bane (MIC 36-37) property lets you ignore the concealment from invisibility if you can hit the right square and dispel mirror images.  Hitting the party with a sculpted faerie fire or glitterdust would force them to dispel the effect on themselves rather than simply recasting the invisibility or dispelling the giants' buffs.
Dang, how did I not know about that feat!  I'll be making more use of Pierce Magical Concealment from now on...  The legendary fire giant will have it, and he will tear into the PC's...

That, plus a nigh-undispelable permanent see invisibility on the Wizard will help (and a glitterdust or two, and maybe a primordial giant with Invisibility Purge).  Add in an Energy Transformation Field, and that will make this a much more challenging encounter.

Thanks a bunch for the ideas.  Though I may have personally liked some ideas better than others, thanks to all who gave suggestions!

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2013, 11:24:37 PM »
Legendary Fire Giant
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Offline CaptRory

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2013, 05:33:37 AM »
The fireball doesn't really care if there's a dozen of them though right? So the wizard would still take damage from the fireball. Even if buffs reduce it to scratch damage, wizards don't have tons of HP to begin with.

Offline KellKheraptis

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Re: Help me make this encounter challenging.
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2013, 08:06:05 AM »
The fireball doesn't really care if there's a dozen of them though right? So the wizard would still take damage from the fireball. Even if buffs reduce it to scratch damage, wizards don't have tons of HP to begin with.

Not to mention if they lead off with Greater Dispel from the giantess and used something like that to clear out the GMI's, that legendary fire giant is going to seriously fuck up whatever it hits with Leap Attack :)  Like the now exposed wizard.

EDIT : Let's not forget that giantess also has Polymorph (Self)...
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 08:09:26 AM by KellKheraptis »