Niche Rating For Classes

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Niche Rating For Classes

Or, what PCs actually do in D&D

Disclamers: 1)This is way more specific than tiers. 2) This is blatantly stolen from Person_Man from GitP. He's a good guy; I just specifically wanted this community's input. He and Curmudgeon are really the only two useful minmaxers left over there anyway. Given time they be banned like everyone else, of course.

Rubric: (lower scores are better)

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1 - The best for the role at most all times and circumstances. Druids have some of the best summons at the drop of a hat. Immunities and normal defenses don't matter.

2 - High efficiency for most cases or acceptable under all circumstances. Psions with minor creation have many things easy at their disposal for a fairly long time. It doesn't cover everything, but its still very good.

3 - Normal efficiency occasionally. Mass staredown samurai are nice but completely ineffective against something with mind-affect immunity. Class skills often matter here, so monks would reach this level for perceptiveness but a fighter would not.

4 - Low efficiency most of the time or rarely very useful. Most very suboptimal focused builds, like spring attack fighters can be this or a Sorcerer with all useful but obscure utility spells known.

5 - Useless most of the time but low efficiency occasionally. For example a recaster trying to keep mundanes alive via healing spells.

6 - No contest. A sorcerer with a Charisma of 1.

Categories:

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1) Melee Damage: Deal meaningful damage to enemies in reach. Hurting close things is the bread and butter of DnD.

2) Ranged Damage: Deal meaningful damage to enemies within range. What if things you need to hurt aren't close?

3) Mobility: Can quickly meet or retreat from enemies. Circumventing barriers and battlefield control. What if you can't get there quickly?

4) Meat Shield: Can stand in the front line of combat with a reasonable chance of not getting killed. What if you can't tank long enough?

5) Scout: Locates enemies, threats, and other useful things while remaining hidden. What if you aren't fighting creatures?

6) Trapfinder: Detect and disarm or knowingly bypass traps. What if you can't detect the trap?

7) Buffer: Increase the abilities of allies. What if the buffs aren't enough?

8) Healer: Can restore hit points and remove harmful status effects for allies around encounters. What if its too much to heal?

9) Battlefield Control: Prevent enemies from taking their normal actions and/or movement. What if you can't stop the encounter from continuing?

10) Utility: Rarely used but helpful in some meaningful way. (Examples: Forgery, Tongues, Slow Fall, etc). What if specialized interaction isn't enough?

11) Intel: Knows or can find useful information. What if you know all you can know?

12) Party Face: Interacts with NPCs in a way that gets desirable results. What if the NPCs won't cooperate?

13) Dominator: Take functional command of enemies. What if you can't control you antagonists?

14) Debuffer: Reduce the abilities of enemies, usually by inflicting status effects. What if you can't drag them down enough?

15) Thief: Can take things from an enemy and enemy locations without being discovered. What if you need a diversion?

16) Summoner: Can summon allies (or make them) that fills other niches without putting the character directly in harms way. What if all else fails?

17) Game Changing Panic: Can proactively reshape the game (or realty) to suit your goals. (Examples: Wish, Miracle, Gate, Psychic Reformation, anything that completely breaks the action economy, etc). If this fails, your DM isn't letting you reasonably win.

Class	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	SoD	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	Average
Archivist	3	1	1	3	2	2	1	2	2	2	2	3	2	1	2	3	2	1	1.94
Ardent	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	SoD	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Artificer	3	2	2	2	3	1	1	1	2	3	2	1	3	4	2	3	2	2	2.17
Barbarian	1	3	3	2	4	3	5	6	5	4	6	4	5	5	3	6	6	4	4.17
Bard	2	3	2	4	2	3	2	3	3	2	1	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	2.56
Beguiler	3	4	4	4	3	3	2	4	3	4	4	3	2	3	3	3	5	4	3.39
Binder	2	4	3	3	3	4	4	4	3	3	4	3	5	4	4	2	3	3	3.39
Cleric	2	2	1	2	2	3	1	1	2	2	3	3	3	1	2	4	2	1	2.06
Crusader	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Dargonfire Adept	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Divine Mind	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Dragon Shaman	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Dread Necromancer	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Druid	1	2	2	1	1	3	1	2	1	2	2	2	3	2	2	3	1	2	1.83
Duskblade	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Factotoum	2	4	3	4	2	2	3	4	3	2	4	2	3	3	3	2	4	3	2.94
Favored Soul	2	2	2	3	3	4	2	3	2	3	3	3	4	2	3	4	3	1	2.72
Fighter	2	3	4	3	5	6	5	6	4	5	6	5	5	6	4	6	6	5	4.78
Healer	4	4	3	3	3	4	2	2	3	4	5	3	6	6	5	6	5	3	3.94
Hexblade	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Incarnate	3	4	3	3	3	3	3	3	3	4	5	4	5	4	3	5	5	4	3.72
Knight	3	5	5	3	4	6	6	6	4	6	6	4	5	6	4	5	6	5	4.94
Marshall	3	4	4	4	3	4	2	4	4	4	5	3	5	6	6	4	6	4	4.17
Monk	3	4	4	4	4	6	6	5	6	4	6	4	5	4	4	5	6	5	4.72
Ninja	3	5	3	5	3	2	6	6	5	4	5	4	6	5	5	2	6	5	4.44
Paladin	2	4	3	3	4	6	3	3	4	4	5	4	5	4	4	6	4	5	4.06
Psion	4	2	2	3	3	4	2	3	2	3	3	3	1	2	3	5	3	1	2.72
Psychic Warrior	2	3	3	3	3	4	3	3	3	4	5	4	4	3	4	4	4	5	3.56
Ranger	3	2	3	3	3	4	4	4	4	4	5	4	4	5	4	4	4	5	3.83
Rogue	2	3	4	5	2	2	5	6	6	4	5	3	6	6	4	1	6	5	4.17
Samurai	3	5	5	4	4	6	6	6	5	6	6	5	5	6	5	6	6	6	5.28
Scout	3	3	3	4	2	3	6	6	5	5	6	4	6	6	4	5	6	5	4.56
Shadowcaster	4	5	2	5	3	5	4	5	4	3	4	3	4	4	3	4	4	3	3.83
Shaman	3	3	3	3	2	3	2	2	2	3	2	3	3	2	3	5	2	2	2.67
Shugenja	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Sohei	3	4	5	4	3	3	4	5	5	6	5	3	5	6	4	3	5	5	4.33
Sorcerer	3	2	2	3	3	4	2	4	2	3	4	3	2	2	2	4	3	1	2.72
Soulborn	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Soulknife	4	4	5	5	3	6	5	6	5	5	6	4	5	6	4	5	6	5	4.94
Spelltheif	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Spirit Shaman	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Swashbuckler	3	4	4	4	3	5	6	6	4	5	6	4	6	6	4	4	6	5	4.72
Swordsage	3	3	2	4	3	5	4	6	3	4	4	3	6	4	4	3	6	2	3.83
Totemist	2	4	3	3	4	3	4	5	4	4	5	4	4	5	3	4	5	4	3.89
Truenamer	4	3	3	4	4	3	4	3	3	3	4	5	6	4	4	6	4	5	4
Warblade	1	3	3	1	4	5	3	4	4	4	5	4	5	4	4	5	6	2	3.72
Warlock	4	2	2	4	3	3	4	3	3	4	5	2	3	5	3	4	4	3	3.39
Warmage	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Wilder	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0
Wizard	2	1	2	3	3	2	2	3	1	2	2	3	2	1	2	4	2	1	2.11
Wu Jen	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	BFC	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	0

Class	Melee	Range	Move	Tank	Scout	Traps	Buff	Heal	BFC	Utility	Intel	Face	Dominate	SoD	Debuff	Steal	Summon	Panic	Average
Druid	1	2	2	1	1	3	1	2	1	2	2	2	3	2	2	3	1	2	1.83
Archivist	3	1	1	3	2	2	1	2	2	2	2	3	2	1	2	3	2	1	1.94
Cleric	2	2	1	2	2	3	1	1	2	2	3	3	3	1	2	4	2	1	2.06
Wizard	2	1	2	3	3	2	2	3	1	2	2	3	2	1	2	4	2	1	2.11
Artificer	3	2	2	2	3	1	1	1	2	3	2	1	3	4	2	3	2	2	2.17
Bard	2	3	2	4	2	3	2	3	3	2	1	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	2.56
Shaman	3	3	3	3	2	3	2	2	2	3	2	3	3	2	3	5	2	2	2.67
Favored Soul	2	2	2	3	3	4	2	3	2	3	3	3	4	2	3	4	3	1	2.72
Psion	4	2	2	3	3	4	2	3	2	3	3	3	1	2	3	5	3	1	2.72
Sorcerer	3	2	2	3	3	4	2	4	2	3	4	3	2	2	2	4	3	1	2.72
Factotoum	2	4	3	4	2	2	3	4	3	2	4	2	3	3	3	2	4	3	2.94
Beguiler	3	4	4	4	3	3	2	4	3	4	4	3	2	3	3	3	5	4	3.39
Binder	2	4	3	3	3	4	4	4	3	3	4	3	5	4	4	2	3	3	3.39
Warlock	4	2	2	4	3	3	4	3	3	4	5	2	3	5	3	4	4	3	3.39
Psychic Warrior	2	3	3	3	3	4	3	3	3	4	5	4	4	3	4	4	4	5	3.56
Incarnate	3	4	3	3	3	3	3	3	3	4	5	4	5	4	3	5	5	4	3.72
Warblade	1	3	3	1	4	5	3	4	4	4	5	4	5	4	4	5	6	2	3.72
Ranger	3	2	3	3	3	4	4	4	4	4	5	4	4	5	4	4	4	5	3.83
Shadowcaster	4	5	2	5	3	5	4	5	4	3	4	3	4	4	3	4	4	3	3.83
Swordsage	3	3	2	4	3	5	4	6	3	4	4	3	6	4	4	3	6	2	3.83
Totemist	2	4	3	3	4	3	4	5	4	4	5	4	4	5	3	4	5	4	3.89
Healer	4	4	3	3	3	4	2	2	3	4	5	3	6	6	5	6	5	3	3.94
Truenamer	4	3	3	4	4	3	4	3	3	3	4	5	6	4	4	6	4	5	4
Paladin	2	4	3	3	4	6	3	3	4	4	5	4	5	4	4	6	4	5	4.06
Barbarian	1	3	3	2	4	3	5	6	5	4	6	4	5	5	3	6	6	4	4.17
Marshall	3	4	4	4	3	4	2	4	4	4	5	3	5	6	6	4	6	4	4.17
Rogue	2	3	4	5	2	2	5	6	6	4	5	3	6	6	4	1	6	5	4.17
Sohei	3	4	5	4	3	3	4	5	5	6	5	3	5	6	4	3	5	5	4.33
Ninja	3	5	3	5	3	2	6	6	5	4	5	4	6	5	5	2	6	5	4.44
Scout	3	3	3	4	2	3	6	6	5	5	6	4	6	6	4	5	6	5	4.56
Monk	3	4	4	4	4	6	6	5	6	4	6	4	5	4	4	5	6	5	4.72
Swashbuckler	3	4	4	4	3	5	6	6	4	5	6	4	6	6	4	4	6	5	4.72
Fighter	2	3	4	3	5	6	5	6	4	5	6	5	5	6	4	6	6	5	4.78
Knight	3	5	5	3	4	6	6	6	4	6	6	4	5	6	4	5	6	5	4.94
Soulknife	4	4	5	5	3	6	5	6	5	5	6	4	5	6	4	5	6	5	4.94
Samurai	3	5	5	4	4	6	6	6	5	6	6	5	5	6	5	6	6	6	5.28

Outliers:
Bard
Warlock
Ranger
Healer
Truenamer


Expansion:

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Feel free to fill out an entry. Also feel free to critique what is here. I will be updating what's here based on community consensus.
PrCs are not considered although breaks will be given for usual/unique PrCs. Yes there are better wizard PrCs than Truenamer ones.
ACFs are not included, yet.
No one probably cares about: NPC classes, Battledancer, Death Master, Jester, Mariner, Master, Montebank, Mystic, Nightstalker, Savant, Sha'ir
I will eventually post this in handbooks.

Thoughts?

[altpersona]

i was initially confused by the 'higher scores are better' bit when it seems that everything points to lower being better.

otherwise, based on the in ascending order chart, why am i not surprised that the first several are the CO standards.

[Waazraath]

I really like this system, because it gives insight in a whole range of categories. Nice  Some first thoughts:

- I don't really see the point of the 'average' ranking, since for example "game change panic" and "the ability to steal something" have the same weight factor. There are obviously importannt categories and less important categories, and they can also change every game you play ("intel" can be one of the most important in a diplomatic focused game, or insignificant in a hack and slash game). So a ranking per categorie is more useful imo. Then again, despite this more methodological remark, the 'average' is a quite decent list on 'who've got power and who don't in D&D 3.5'.

- A problem with these kind of lists is that the game changes quite alot from level 1 / 20, and this list gives an average. For example, on level 3, a wizard has by no means 'high efficiency in melee', nor have moste druids, who will have strength and dex as dump stats, cause they won't use 'em anymore once they can wildshape (unless you count their animal companion in this category). Binder 1 with Malphas (the permanent scounting bird that has no range limit) is high on most DM's that I know 'panic list' for low level.

- I somehow miss the save or die / save or suck categorie. "dominator" is a kind of those, but it seems like all of the others are left out, while they have quite a high game impact and are defenitely something "what PC's actually do".

- I'd put the paladin one up in the 'scout' department; it's detect evil ability is very useful for scouting in dungeons, also because it can be used through doors and walls. They can detect motionless foes, making no sound,  hidden behind a door, that rogues or rangers will not detect. Together with the decent wis and the extra pair of ears/eyes (the mount), this could be higher. Same goes for intel; with detect evil at will from level 1, diplomacy to convince people they should give you information, and spells like discern lies and zone of truth, 'useless most of the time' is too negative imo.

- Incarnate on range and melee puzzles me a bit ; I think mostly, one builds either a ranged or a melee incarnate, both of 'em quite decent, and lacking in the other respect. So that would be either melee 4 / ranged 2 or melee 2 ranged 4 ; though I'm not sure how to put that in the list. 3 / 3 maybe, since that's where they end up if a build is focussed on neither?

- swordsage 2 on the 'panic' scale? Why? 

- warblade: same, why 2 on the panic scale? Martial adepts are solid, not game breaking, as wish or miracle! As for 'ranged', 3 is quite high for a class that isn't proficient in martial ranged weapons. Even though some stances / maneuvers can bolster their ranged combat, 4 would be more appropriate. Tank 1 is also quite high; ok, d12 HD, medium armor, some maneuvers that can help tanking... but the crusader is much stronger then the warblade in this respect, so I wouldn't go higher then 2.

[spacemonkey555]

Seems a category that comes up with some frequency would be negated magic. Dead/wild magic is a staple of FR, and has shown up in some Greyhawk stuff as well. Some monsters have an immunity or negation ability, and there's always antimagic field. The mundane folks are reduced by the temporary loss of their gear magic, but not to the degree of the top tiers, who lose use of their gear and many class abilities.

Also, I was a bit worried about monks having a high rating until I saw that higher scores are better. Monks being twice as good as wizards sounds about right.

- swordsage 2 on the 'panic' scale? Why? 

- warblade: same, why 2 on the panic scale? Martial adepts are solid, not game breaking, as wish or miracle!

When the sun gets in their eyes, they snuff it like a candle. That's a -1 in my book.   

[Waazraath]

- swordsage 2 on the 'panic' scale? Why? 

- warblade: same, why 2 on the panic scale? Martial adepts are solid, not game breaking, as wish or miracle!

When the sun gets in their eyes, they snuff it like a candle. That's a -1 in my book.   

Ah yeah, iron heart surge  But if that's the way its interpretated, warblade should be 1 (I don't think it should be there though). Swordsage doesn't have access to Iron Heart, so nope. But seriously, ranked way to high, I think.

Something else, now I'm posting anyway: what are the criteria for getting a score on 'ranged'? Because the marshal has 4 (martial weapons, average BAB, no further relevant class features), but the paladin has 4 as well (full BAB, possibilities to do some ranged smite stuff with the right feats, that can be augmented with spells).

[SorO_Lost]

1)This is way more specific than tiers.

Yeahee!

Rubric: (higher scores are better)
<snip> 1 Druid, 2 great, 3 normal, 4 low, 5 useless, 6 yep still useless.

Huh?
1. 1~5 is a better scale than 1~6, showcased by 6 being as useless as 5 is.
2. Clearly lowman wins, correct the parenthesis explanation immediately.

Categories:
Melee Damage, Ranged Damage, Mobility, Meat Shield, Scout, Trapfinder, Buffer, Healer, Battlefield Control, Utility, Intel, Party Face, Dominator, Debuffer, Thief, Summoner, Game Changing Panic

Interesting list, needs edited and an established system rathar than bullshit numbers made up on the fly. I mean, a Cleric has better armor plus healing/buffs and as one of the high priority targets attracts attention away from other party members, yet his listed Tank value is less than the Barbarian whose Medium Armor somehow compares to the Druid's Natural AC & Con from Wildshape and the loads of other Buffs/Regeneration. Heck, even the Bard is listed at a 3 in melee despite turning his entire party into 1s via Dragonfire. Standardizing the methods that award points creates consistency and frees you from the quite obvious inherent favoritism displayed in the rankings.

Some suggestions buried in off hand comments about Person_Man.

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Melee Damage: Is this supposed to include Touch Attacks or not? If so, all the mundanes are off by a few points in their scoring.
Ranged Damage: Unless you have Sneak Attack(#4), Bonus Feats (#3), or Spells (#1), you're useless failure that pretends Bow Proficiency means something (#5).
Mobility: rolfmao. Teleport/Gate/DDoor/etc (#1), can cast Alter Self (#2), Flight/Burrow/Swim (#3), literately has something that affects Speed(#4), rides another creature (#5).
Scout: Really? Mobility, Thief, Trapfinder & Intel are already on the list, this is redundant.
Trapfinder: More stupid Class inflation. Got Trapfinding? auto-#1 to improve your average rank.
Buff: Offers nothing (#5), lame buffs (#4), useful buffs (#3), good buffs (#2), improves the entire party with minimum effort (#1).
Healer: This isn't even a rank based, it's binary. Can you cast a Healing Spell (#1) or do you use a Wand (#5)?
CC: Ugh. The Druid has Entangle so it's #1! Wizard/Sorcerer has Grease, Web, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog? #2! Also, the Barbarian can Trip better than the Rogue can toss Alchemicals, better bump him up too. Eer I'm sure I had a suggestion in here somewhere... Maybe go back and read it?
Utility: *sigh* Like Scout this is a combination grade that can be done away with. Also I just can't seem to stop pointing out the flaws, like the Beguiler whom has stealth, Divination, and any Illusion (thus via shadow extension, any conjuration/evocation effect) is of the same rank as the guy whose only ability is get pissed off and die. Someone clearly loved his Primals.
Intel & Face: Got Divination (#1)? Well then you use Skills and I hope you use Charisma and didn't Cross-Class invest in them (#3). All through really this is pretty integral, care and insight should be given to make full range of the 1~5.
Dominator: Is this thing is supposed to be a full-caster bonus points section? All I know is someone thought the Psion ranked above the guys with Animate Dead, Gate, and Ice Assassion. You know, the things that work on creatures that acquired something from the long list of ways to become immune to Enchantments...
Debuffer: You notice how no one got a 1 in here? You'd think '1' is defined as "I'm a Wizard" and scales back from there to none (#5), but nope.
Thief: Better term, Stealth. Because apparently you can't fail a Sleight of Hand Check, but you can try to avoid the guards afterwards.
Summoner: So the spontaneous SNA caster is the only possible way to earn a 1 and the guys with Planar Binding/Ally are #2. Umm, let's reverse than and dump everyone who can't Summon to begin with kthx.
Game Changing Panic: I just love how the Druid has the lowest score on top of several exclusive 1s but instantly drops a rank when it comes to mention if the Class breaks the game or not. Apparently, even a Favored Soul is more knee jerkingly powerful than a Druid. Even JK's rebuttal makes a better case for listing things correctly than this.

Nice idea really. But the categories need changed and it seriously needs a real method that designates why and how many points to award. The former is just fluff on how you wish to detail but the former is fundamental.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Fixed the "higher" typo that should have said "lower." Btw I'm not married to any particular score. Having a fairly large familiarity with most all the classes, I pretty much just went down the list off the top of my head checking here and there when needed.

"game change panic" and "the ability to steal something" have the same weight factor.

I am aware of the problem in weighting these. However I'm very unsure of exact or even relative weighting, since different DMs will focus on different things. That said, the fact that battle-driven categories outnumber the non-battling ones does say something.

So a ranking per categorie is more useful imo.

I wanted to do that too. As you can guess, though, this took a LOT of work. I suppose I will do a few and see how easy it comes.

A problem with these kind of lists is that the game changes quite alot from level 1 / 20, and this list gives an average. For example, on level 3, a wizard has by no means 'high efficiency in melee', nor have moste druids, who will have strength and dex as dump stats, cause they won't use 'em anymore once they can wildshape (unless you count their animal companion in this category). Binder 1 with Malphas (the permanent scounting bird that has no range limit) is high on most DM's that I know 'panic list' for low level.

Very good point. Putting 'normal' scores for level marks 1, 6, 12 and 20 would again be a lot of number crunching. I'll do level 1 to see how easy it is.

I somehow miss the save or die / save or suck categorie. "dominator" is a kind of those, but it seems like all of the others are left out, while they have quite a high game impact and are defenitely something "what PC's actually do"

I see this is a popular request. Added.

the paladin one up in the 'scout' department. Same goes for intel

Agreed and that you for the reasoning. I did not know DE didn't require LoE: "If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location"

Incarnate on range and melee puzzles me a bit ; I think mostly, one builds either a ranged or a melee incarnate, both of 'em quite decent, and lacking in the other respect. So that would be either melee 4 / ranged 2 or melee 2 ranged 4 ; though I'm not sure how to put that in the list. 3 / 3 maybe, since that's where they end up if a build is focussed on neither?

What are some of the nicer ranged abilities? Obviously they can do most of the totemist melee ones.

swordsage 2 on the 'panic' scale?

Caught in an force-cage'd AMF pressure trap they can escape. Their panic options are good enough even wizards dip into their class features via feats.

warblade: same, why 2 on the panic scale?

Iron heart surge. I mean, come on. Sure, its broken. But its there. I put it as 2 because no DM will allow the sun to go poof. But they will grudgingly allow most of the other "I'm all better now!" applications. Also Crusader would be 1 in tanking too. But I dislike having to refresh my memory on their different maneuver mechanic, so I haven't added that class yet.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

needs an established system rathar than bullshit numbers made up on the fly. I mean, a Cleric has better armor plus healing/buffs and as one of the high priority targets attracts attention away from other party members, yet his listed Tank value is less than the Barbarian whose Medium Armor somehow compares to the Druid's Natural AC & Con from Wildshape and the loads of other Buffs/Regeneration. Heck, even the Bard is listed at a 3 in melee despite turning his entire party into 1s via Dragonfire. Standardizing the methods that award points creates consistency and frees you from the quite obvious inherent favoritism displayed in the rankings.

I was trying to keep the categories close to isolated. Though, that's not doable, it does explain some of the reasons why mundanes do well in, like, any category at all. Unfortunately Wildshape doesn't give bonus HP from high constitution forms anymore. I'm adjusting the mentioned scores, but can I request what the max +hit & damage a DF bard actually gives? I thought it was around +6 which is good, but not the best of the best. I could be wrong. Have I mentioned how much I hate the bard class and the fact that I have no idea why it seems to score so high? I expected you to tell me about how I clearly love bards too much because they are up with the tier 1's (wtf btw). But I'll bump the melee'ing up because of my favoritism. Lol.

Melee Damage: Is this supposed to include Touch Attacks or not? If so, all the mundanes are off by a few points in their scoring.

I don't think its necessary. Permanent wraith-strike is one of those DMG to the face things that never sees play. But I don't care either way. Some more opinions min-maxers?

Ranged Damage: Unless you have Sneak Attack(#4), Bonus Feats (#3), or Spells (#1), you're useless failure that pretends Bow Proficiency means something (#5).

agreed.

Mobility: rolfmao. Teleport/Gate/DDoor/etc (#1), can cast Alter Self (#2), Flight/Burrow/Swim (#3), literately has something that affects Speed(#4), rides another creature (#5).

agreed.

Scout: Really? Mobility, Thief, Trapfinder & Intel are already on the list, this is redundant.

Move/steal/find traps/find out about events or things you have. Finding bad guys is a bit different. Should it be lumped in with intel?

Trapfinder: More stupid Class inflation. Got Trapfinding? auto-#1 to improve your average rank.

Should traps be a big part of a campaign? If it is for many people and PCs do that should the category it covers (its certainly not finding about about legends or magic items you have) be removed to inflate intel more? Should a metagame worry about average score affect the categories? Trapfinding alone isn't good enough for #1, I would think.

Buff: Offers nothing (#5), lame buffs (#4), useful buffs (#3), good buffs (#2), improves the entire party with minimum effort (#1).

agreed but 2 should be improves the whole team decently and #1 should be nearly game-breaking buffs, often with ways to extend them when they weren't originally meant to be.

Healer: This isn't even a rank based, it's binary. Can you cast a Healing Spell (#1) or do you use a Wand (#5)?

Um. 'Can prevent others from being hurt with ease.' #1 'Can fix anything with appropriate lower-slot heal spells.' #2 'Can shotgun most things with a higher level spell ala heal' #3 'Can heal some things but not easy.' #4 "Can heal some hp, but not enough or easily." #5. "Can't heal without UMD+wand." #6. This would seem sort of obvious. I suppose its not and I'll be inflating the rubric for each entry... Did I mention how much time this took?

CC: Ugh. The Druid has Entangle so it's #1! Wizard/Sorcerer has Grease, Web, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog? #2! Also, the Barbarian can Trip better than the Rogue can toss Alchemicals, better bump him up too. Eer I'm sure I had a suggestion in here somewhere... Maybe go back and read it?

Um. I've always had both at #1. Are you refering to Person_Man's list? I respect him, but he's going to be getting... lower grade advice than what should be posted in this forum.

Utility: *sigh* Like Scout this is a combination grade that can be done away with. Also I just can't seem to stop pointing out the flaws, like the Beguiler whom has stealth, Divination, and any Illusion (thus via shadow extension, any conjuration/evocation effect) is of the same rank as the guy whose only ability is get pissed off and die. Someone clearly loved his Primals.
Intel & Face: Got Divination (#1)? Well then you use Skills and I hope you use Charisma and didn't Cross-Class invest in them (#3). All through really this is pretty integral, care and insight should be given to make full range of the 1~5.

I really didn't catch any of this.

Dominator: Is this thing is supposed to be a full-caster bonus points section? All I know is someone thought the Psion ranked above the guys with Animate Dead, Gate, and Ice Assassion. You know, the things that work on creatures that acquired something from the long list of ways to become immune to Enchantments...

I've never seen ice assassin used, other than an excuse to have zoo full of almost legit epic monsters. Forgive me for ignoring that spell, unless others think its solidly in normal wizardry territory. Animate dead is summons though. Gate is mobility or summons. Psionic Dominate however allows earlier than usual unfair DCs. I've had that used to brutal effectiveness by a player I DM'd, so I could be biased. I'm listening for others' suggestions on that category. That and steal/stealth feels weak to me.

Debuffer: You notice how no one got a 1 in here? You'd think '1' is defined as "I'm a Wizard" and scales back from there to none (#5), but nope.

I did notice that. I wanted one, of course. But I didn't get one. I guess that makes me, um what was it? Favoritist? What is the example (besides I'm class x) of the best debuffs around? I know of unseelie fey paladin of tryanny hexblades. But I can't think of a tier 1 debuff spell wizards would throw at a construct, for instance. I crave useful information.

Thief: Better term, Stealth. Because apparently you can't fail a Sleight of Hand Check, but you can try to avoid the guards afterwards.

How about sneaky?

Summoner: So the spontaneous SNA caster is the only possible way to earn a 1 and the guys with Planar Binding/Ally are #2. Umm, let's reverse than [sic]

I see what you are saying. Others' thoughts on Planar Binding used aggressively in lieu of SNA? Are DMs usually ok with that and don't sick powerful outsiders on you as a result?

Game Changing Panic: I just love how the Druid has the lowest score on top of several exclusive 1s but instantly drops a rank when it comes to mention if the Class breaks the game or not. Apparently, even a Favored Soul is more knee jerkingly powerful than a Druid. Even JK's rebuttal makes a better case for listing things correctly than this.

I'll be honest that I missed the boat on this inside joke (insult?). Druids have shapechange(2), but not miracle (1). A Favored soul would be nuts not to take miracle as a spell known. Is there something I'm missing about druids?

[sirpercival]

use [tablesort] for your table. voilá, sortable by category.

[SorO_Lost]

I expected you to tell me about how I clearly love bards too much because they are up with the tier 1's (wtf btw).

I bounced around a lot and some things I caught, some I didn't. The Druid was pretty obvious through there is a little Barbarian love going around in it too.

The quote are split up which can be a pain to handle so I'll just ramble on.
Melee: It's not Waithstrike I was thinking, simply Touch Attacks. For instance, the Druid was ranked at 1 (of course), the Wizard is a 2 (like always, Sorcerer is auto+1 point to Wizard no matter the consequence of stating such), and the Monk is 3. So, Unarmed Damage's dozen of dice is ranked lower than Arcane Touch Attacks, which is lower yet than a couple lame Natural Weapons for some reason (did he only count dragon wild shape or something?). Now take the Duskblade who needs a number and is based on Touch Attacks. In this screwed up ranking, where should he go? A little less ambiguity would be nice.
Scout: Intel & Stealth would cover it. To be honest I'd almost leave out Stealth.
Healer: Let me rephrase. Do you Heal in combat or not? If you're in the not area, the amount of course doesn't matter. And if you're in the combat area either it's free (regeneration, devoted spirit, wrathful healing) or great enough to be worth the action (I cast Heal!). Best case, 3 choices. But in details, it snips back down to 2 (sic devoted spirit casts heal, clerics can auto quicken cure spells via dragon prophecy, etc).
Traps: D&D loves it's traps, but Classes actually capable of dealing with them vs the ones that hit them with +1 Acid Daggers is pretty limited. It's almost like this shouldn't be a category in so much as colored text. A highlight that "Hey, this Class is one of the key 4, stick someone with it!". You know, you can reflect back on Healing much the same way.
Dominator: Do you see what I meant? I guess not. You refuted the examples as Summoners but didn't smack your head afterwards. Doh, SorO literally drew a line between Charming Monsters and the actual THEY OBEY ME WITHOUT QUESTION Spells, like Summons (and better). The comment on making it a Save-or-Die category is an excellent one to use.
Debuff: "But I can't think of a tier 1 debuff spell wizards would throw at a construct, for instance." A. Does it matter? Wizard is still the best. B. Construct has no inherent Immunity to Raping Tentacles to start with. C. I think you mean Golems, each of which has a Key Spell or two that ignores the Immunity to debuff/harm them. And the Wizard is 15 minutes or less away form whatever Key Spell you bring up on top of being able to drop houses on them (walk through that!).
CC/Utility: Yeah, the Barbarian was inflated up to the Beguiler's level. Expected honestly, this came from GitP. And in their world Barbarians are better than most Spellcasters for some reason. You can expect Person_Man's list isn't really based on a lot of insight. Some of that you'll have to work with and correct as people spot them.
Summon: I try not to bring DMs into things. I have my own sense of balance (to which over use of planar binding does send bounty hunters) but like I said I try not to see things from my own parameters. When you get down to it, the stuff I suggested on Dominator belongs here because it's all one category. Minions. For that the Druid has the ability to Summon Animals and has a pet dog. The Cleric has Animated Undead, turned Undead, interplaner deals on bindings, and he isn't limited to an animal only list. But don't entirely get me wrong, after things like Greenbound and Domain Staffs the Druid jumps right back up there, so it's a matter of how much optimization will play into this and judging by all these DM comments, you're looking at Greenbound being banned off the table.
Game Changing Panic: The Druid is the best Class listed, often scoring 1s or nearly such, it's average was lower than every other Class as well. But when it came time to ask if this Best Class Ever was game breaking, hell no was the answer. everyone with Spells is totally better *wink wink*. It''s like you're in a High School Swimming competition and Michael Phelps steps up to the line, but because you want to watch him swim you toss all concepts of fair play out the window.

Also, with a Domain Staff a Druid can cast Miracle (luck) or even Wish (envy). Just saying.

[Jackinthegreen]

I wouldn't say Samurai has a 6 in Debuff since it does have the ability to intimidate multiple things at once.  A 5 (or at best a 4 with Imperious Command) might work since intimidate does require its target to not be mindless or otherwise immune to fear or mind-affecting stuff and it's rather easy to get that.

[Waazraath]

Some more remarks:

- Can imagine this seriously takes a lot of time, PlzBreakMyCampaign, I appreciate the effort. I'm aware that suggestions that improve the accuracy take even more time...

- As for the 'panic level' of swordsage and warblade: I still have my doubts. Both of them are explained by only 1 maneuver; where the swordsage one is a feat that any character can take at level 6, and the warblade one depends on a imo rather dubious interpretation. Besides, a warblade hasn't got that many maneuvers, there are plenty that focus on other disciplines then Iron heart ; what would their panic factor be?

- Agree with Jackinthegreen on the Samurai

- as for the ranged incarnate: I believe the standard build is a CN build utilizing incarnate avatar, dissolving spittle and (greater) psionic shot, which gives every turn a ranged touch attack for a lot of d6 of acid damage. Boring, but effective.

- In general, how is represented in the rating that there are several classes that can do A good, or B, but not both at the same time? How would it be ranked? For example, the paladin scores badly on 'ranged', and it should imo. But it's quite possible to build a strong ranged focused paladin, with ranged smite evil and manyshot. Such a build should rank higher on ranged, but the feat (and possibly class) investment would make it suck a lot worse then the average pally in several other categories. Another example would be the above mentioned fully diamond mind focussed warblade in the 'panic' category. In a way, the system seems even more suited to rank specific builds then to rank the different classes.

[sirpercival]

- In general, how is represented in the rating that there are several classes that can do A good, or B, but not both at the same time? How would it be ranked? For example, the paladin scores badly on 'ranged', and it should imo. But it's quite possible to build a strong ranged focused paladin, with ranged smite evil and manyshot. Such a build should rank higher on ranged, but the feat (and possibly class) investment would make it suck a lot worse then the average pally in several other categories. Another example would be the above mentioned fully diamond mind focussed warblade in the 'panic' category. In a way, the system seems even more suited to rank specific builds then to rank the different classes.

How about a category for adaptability, or (antonymically) specialization -- basically how good a class is at filling multiple niches simultaneously? Paladin, forex, would score badly.

[RobbyPants]

Regarding Scouting and Intel: why are these two separate things? Does it really matter if you can gain information while physically being at a location or not?

Also, why isn't the wizard a 1 on Intel? Wizards are notorious for knowing what they are going to be facing that day and for setting up Scry-and-die teleport ambushes.

[Waazraath]

Suggestion for the Crusader:

1) Melee Damage: 2 (full bab, strength as primary score, several strikes that deal a lot of damage

2) Ranged Damage: 4 (no feats, spells, sneak attack - a few maneuvers help here though, like giant's stance)

3) Mobility: 4 (bad, heavy armor, no maneuvers that increase mobility)

4) Meat Shield: 1 (steely resolve ability, free die hard, maneuvers and stances that greatly increase durability, incl. thicket of blades to prevent enemies from closing in. Class is meant for this)

5) Scout: 6 (nothing in this class says 'scout')

6) Trapfinder: 5 (enough hp to walk in a trap and not care too much)

7) Buffer: 2 (with white raven, the class has powerful buffs, including the extra turn granting white raven tactics)

8) Healer: 3 (nice healing maneuvers, not on par with spells though, and no status effects can be healed)

9) Battlefield Control: 3 (a number of maneuvers impede movement / actions, thicket of blades is important here)

10) Utility: 4 (few maneuvers can help, like mountain hammer as a substitute for 'knock', and decent skill list with 4 skillpoints/lvl)

11) Intel: 4 (cha as 3rd ability score, and with intimidate and/or diplomacy it should be able to get some info out of people)

12) Party Face: 4 (see above, few relevant skills, but no more)

13) Dominator: 6 (nope, nothing)

14) Debuffer: 3 (several good debuff maneuvers - though several would also list under 'battlefield control' because they impede movement)

15) Thief: 6 (nope)

16) Summoner: 6 (nope)

17) Game Changing Panic: 4 (for giving the wizard an extra turn with white raven tactics)

[awaken_D_M_golem]

(activates artifact level Ring of Translations for PLZ --> aDMg --> chaos mantle)


Aha, so the 1 to 6 rating system, is a parallel to Tiers.

[Waazraath]

Will this one be upgraded to being a handbook?

[Hallack]

I'm still wrapping my mind around the metrics a bit but some things jumped out at me on the Beguiler as compared to other classes in some categories.

Mobility
The Beguiler is rated a 4 on movement comparable to Monk, Rogue, and Fighter while classes like Ninja, Ranger, Scout, and Paladin rated a 3. 
     - I get that beguilers do not get alter self, fly, dimension door, or teleport which properly keeps it from the 1 and 2 rankings.  It does however have expedituous retreat, spider climb, haste, FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, Shadow walk, phase door, ethereal forms of travel, and even access to phantom steed (shadow conjured).  How does that rate the same level of Mobility as the mundanes?

Scouting
A rogue, scout, and factotum are rated 2's while Beguiler (and others including wizard) get lower?  I'm not even saying that 3 is incorrect for the Beguiler but between spells and skills I don't see how the others rate higher.  There is even some difficulty with the higher rating for bards due to the problem of spells known being a limited resource thus making legend lore, find the path, and scry likely outliers on spells choices. 

Traps
As discussed in the thread already may not be a prime category but it is one that is given and Rogues, Ninjas, and Factotums get 2 while the Beguiler gets 3?  It has Trapfinding (not that such is king), Intelligence based casting for better Disable Device, and spells support for detecting and bypassing traps?

Utility Broad base of skills, broad base of spontaneous spells many of which are situational utility by nature.  Depending on how one weights broader selection vs broader base of spontaneity you could even argue the Beguiler has more utility than the Sorcerer.

Face Between class skills, extra skills from Int based casting, lots of illusion and enchant spells I don't see how the Beguiler can have the same rating as a Rogue, swordsage, and even Wizard.  Between spells, Cha, and skills I get the Bard rating of 2.  This is probably more a problem of the Rogue and Swordsage's rating than the beguiler's though.

Just a few thoughts.  Probably will revisit later as I get more time.

Cheers

[Sir Giacomo]

This niche ranking system sounds like a good idea. The original thread by Person_Man  (with slight differences in methods, layout and ranking results/discussion) is here btw: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314701.

What imo is better with this niche ranking approach than with the traditional tier system by JaronK is that there are more detailed categories to measure, making the different gaming experiences more comparable. The categories themselves also look good at first glance, although I would probably put Dominator and Summoner into one category (meaning providing the pc group with allies that are more loyal than “helpful” or somehow compelled magically to fight for the group).

Still, there are some caveats for rating class efficiency/utility/power this way, similar to the traditional tier system:

• It does not allow for different experiences at different levels
• It ignores wbl effects in that it does not allow for how easy it is to replace a certain class ability with a magic item, boost a class ability with a  magic item synergy, or overcome class weaknesses with (cheap) items.
• It does not include the effect that races, feats and (cross-class) skills have which everyone can take, including potential synergies and weakness coverages they offer.

Having said that, I’ll try at some point provide ideas on ranking on the still open entry of the duskblade first – and of course a different view on the monk

- Giacomo

[zook1shoe]

You did a really good job

maybe put the OA Samurai in, since the Shaman is in?

I don't see any npc classes. Were you going to do those?