Author Topic: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - originally by kalaskaagathas  (Read 80505 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2011, 05:32:13 AM »
You really should read more then.

"All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice."


There. With the only caveat being creatures with Int - gaining no skill points or feats.

Familiars don't gain feats because they don't improve their HD at all. Mounts do get feats following their HD as well.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 05:34:45 AM by oslecamo »

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2011, 06:53:17 AM »
You really should read more then.

"All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice."


There. With the only caveat being creatures with Int - gaining no skill points or feats.

Familiars don't gain feats because they don't improve their HD at all. Mounts do get feats following their HD as well.
That's true, Psycrystals have HD and hence feats, while familiars have... something and gain nothing except what's in the table and half the HP of their master.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2011, 12:38:45 AM »
still not true. psicrystals have entry of "advancement: --." that is a non-ability, meaning incapable of advancement. the fact that it gets HD, and that the HD change, is an artifact of the feat description; not because it is a construct that is improving by virtue of gaining xp and gaining HD. it is part of the character, not an independent entity.

"advancement: --" = no feats, no skill points, nothing is gained by advancement, because it cannot advance. all that it gains is from the description of how the feat works. and the feat does not specify gaining of feats.

think of it as a case of specific overriding general, if it makes you feel better.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 12:42:49 AM by nijineko »

Offline littha

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2011, 06:59:07 AM »
Actually I think the only place I saw -- defined as incapable of something was in the level adjustment rules.

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 11:05:21 AM »
still not true. psicrystals have entry of "advancement: --." that is a non-ability, meaning incapable of advancement. the fact that it gets HD, and that the HD change, is an artifact of the feat description; not because it is a construct that is improving by virtue of gaining xp and gaining HD. it is part of the character, not an independent entity.

"advancement: --" = no feats, no skill points, nothing is gained by advancement, because it cannot advance. all that it gains is from the description of how the feat works. and the feat does not specify gaining of feats.

All the information on Psicrystals comes from the Psicrystal monster entry, the feat does not give any info except you get one.

The Psycrystal monster entry specifies that Psicrystals have the same HD as their master. They are constructs, so these HD follow construct traits. Normal monster advancement does not happen. There is no advancement entry because it says at the top: HD: As master's HD, where normally it would state a fixed number of HD. The special clause refers only to 1/2 the master's HP. Now at this point you definitely need to give it skillpoints/HD because those are specified in the description of the Construct Type.

Now the question is whether you can let the "Improving Monsters" paragraph on feats count or not. However, it's a matter of consistency to handle this the same way as any other monster, which is why the Increasing Hit Dice table should apply. Also, the psicrystal description does not say "it counts as having the same HD as the master", it actually says it gets those HD. HD without features only exist in special cases, which isn't specified in the monster entry. 

Finally, the Advancement entry is also one of the looser aspects of the game:
Quote from: SRD
Advancement

The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die.

And on the "-" entry, there are only specific cases where this is clearly meant to mean things are unavailable / very different. That is with non-abilities and it says somewhere that LA: - means it's not available as a player character. Advancement: - does not mean anything specific, just that none is given.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2011, 11:07:40 AM »
i would add CON score to that.

"--" is also called out as a non-ability in stat rules, such as undead.

i'm pretty sure that wherever you find "--", it is non ability.


assuming that psicrystals having HD grants them feats is just that, an assumption. besides, the information for psicrystals comes from the class feature entry, the monster entry is secondary.

again, the fact that they have HD and that the HD change are a function of the fact that a character has a feat.

being able to gain feats and HD is dependent upon the creature being capable of independent existence and independent gaining of xp. which a psicrystal is not.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 11:14:37 AM by nijineko »

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2011, 11:40:47 AM »
i would add CON score to that.

"--" is also called out as a non-ability in stat rules, such as undead.

i'm pretty sure that wherever you find "--", it is non ability.

Nonabilities only concern ability scores, because Abilities in D&D terms are just the 6 basic attributes.
Quote from: SRD
Nonabilities: Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.

Quote
assuming that psicrystals having HD grants them feats is just that, an assumption. besides, the information for psicrystals comes from the class feature entry, the monster entry is secondary.
I would tend to disagree that it is an assumption - it is a deduction from the way every other creature is handled in the game. The Psicrystal entry in the Psion description states the following: (And do note that only Psicrystal advancement is a psion feature, actually there is no mention of Psicrystals among the Psion class features.)
Quote from: SRD
Psicrystal Basics: Use the statistics for a psicrystal, but make the following changes.

During the changes it mentions nothing of not giving it certain things that would normally depend on HD.

The "Psicrystal affinity" feat states this:
Quote
PSICRYSTAL AFFINITY [PSIONIC]
You have created a psicrystal.

Prerequisites: Manifester level 1st.

Benefit: This feat allows you to gain a psicrystal.
Everything else must be taken from relevant other information - the Psicrystal monster entry, for instance.
Quote
again, the fact that they have HD and that the HD change are a function of the fact that a character has a feat.
They gain HD because the monster entry says so. The Familiar entry, for instance, does not, since IIRC familiars don't have a normal monster entry.
Quote
being able to gain feats and HD is dependent upon the creature being capable of independent existence and independent gaining of xp. which a psicrystal is not.
No monster is by default capable of gaining XP. Monsters just exist to get killed, they don't have a life of their own. (I do disagree with this, but it's basically how the game is set up.)  Monsters gain HD because their governing entity says so (usually the DM, but sometimes others, such as the PC in control of an animal companion, for instance). So the general fact that monsters are able to gain feats can be reliably deduced on them having an Int score that is not a non-ability.

So there are multiple cases within the game of creatures gaining feats from HD, whereas there are few if any cases where creatures gain actual HD but not the accompanying features.  There is no specific rule to draw from to handle this any differently.

For comparison: The Riding Dog entry (and I guess most of these animal entries) specifies an Advancement: -. The Druid Animal Companion features gives Bonus HD. And then it also says this:
Quote from: SRD
An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
Emphasis mine. Thanks to that "normal" it becomes clear that this is a clarification to use the general case. In the case of Psicrystals there is no such clarification, but it isn't really necessary.


Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2011, 01:09:17 PM »
Those are some interesting points! i might have to change my mind on psicrystals. give me some time to chew it over and research. at the very least, i think all these points should be added as a spoilered subsection to the handbook as the pros and cons to the psicrystal/feat concept.

Offline brainpiercing

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2011, 04:54:02 AM »
Those are some interesting points! i might have to change my mind on psicrystals. give me some time to chew it over and research. at the very least, i think all these points should be added as a spoilered subsection to the handbook as the pros and cons to the psicrystal/feat concept.
Yeah, I was still sort of waiting for you to pull something new out of your hat to destroy years of certainty... :)

All this arguing isn't meant to deal with the balance issues at hand at all - I mostly prefer to not think too much about balance when trying to work out a ruleset. Now I do like consistency, and when making house-rules will shoot for that, mostly. It does seem weird that Psicrystals are somehow by default better than familiars, but there you have it.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2011, 06:35:42 PM »
i might just yet, give me time.... ^^ but if i can't find and pull the metaphorical rabbit, then i may have to concede this point. =P

Offline Psyren

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2011, 12:45:28 PM »
If it makes you feel any better, the DSP folks plugged that little hole in Pathfinder.

Also, the "(Su) Psi" trick is not RAW at all and requires a massive leap of logic/DM fiat to work.

Offline littha

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2011, 12:48:17 PM »
If it makes you feel any better, the DSP folks plugged that little hole in Pathfinder.

Also, the "(Su) Psi" trick is not RAW at all and requires a massive leap of logic/DM fiat to work.

It is RAW, that's the issue. It is stupid to even assume any DM ever would let you do that though.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2011, 01:01:05 PM »
If it makes you feel any better, the DSP folks plugged that little hole in Pathfinder.

Also, the "(Su) Psi" trick is not RAW at all and requires a massive leap of logic/DM fiat to work.

oh, i'm interested in how they plugged it. have a link, by chance?

Offline Psyren

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2011, 02:44:21 PM »
If it makes you feel any better, the DSP folks plugged that little hole in Pathfinder.

Also, the "(Su) Psi" trick is not RAW at all and requires a massive leap of logic/DM fiat to work.

It is RAW, that's the issue. It is stupid to even assume any DM ever would let you do that though.

No, it's not even RAW. It requires making the assumption that "Powers can be affected by these two specific Meta-SLA feats" means that "powers can be affected by all feats that could possibly affect SLAs." Read it again.

If it makes you feel any better, the DSP folks plugged that little hole in Pathfinder.

Also, the "(Su) Psi" trick is not RAW at all and requires a massive leap of logic/DM fiat to work.

oh, i'm interested in how they plugged it. have a link, by chance?

Pathfinder Psicrystal

They removed the troublesome line that was present in the 3.5 Psicrystal: "Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice."

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2011, 04:26:57 PM »
isn't the argument stemming from the fact that the ability to manifest powers was described as an SLA? if one distinguishes between the ability to manifest powers and the effect (the powers themselves), i can see it go either way. if one does rule different in that case, i'm not sure what effect, if any, the feats would have then. i don't have much of an opinion on this argument.


thanks for the link, interesting choice.

Offline Psyren

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2011, 05:00:57 PM »
isn't the argument stemming from the fact that the ability to manifest powers was described as an SLA? if one distinguishes between the ability to manifest powers and the effect (the powers themselves), i can see it go either way. if one does rule different in that case, i'm not sure what effect, if any, the feats would have then. i don't have much of an opinion on this argument.

I'm not arguing that powers aren't PLAs. That is definitely RAW. The trouble is that psionics-magic transparency does not, and never has, applied to feats.

The quote:

Quote
Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

Feats are not covered by the rule. Thus, feats that affect magic (such as metamagic) and feats that affect psionics are always treated separately.

Furthermore, while PLAs are similar to SLAs, they are explicitly treated separately in the rules. SRD again:

Quote
In addition to existing spell-like and supernatural abilities, creatures can also have psi-like abilities. (Psionic creatures may also have extraordinary and natural abilities.)

Which finally leads us to the basis for the entire "trick" - Quicken SLA and Empower SLA. Here is that quote:

Quote
Psi-Like Abilities And Feats
Creatures with access to psi-like abilities can use the feats Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

These are two very specific exceptions to the general rule. It does not write us a blank check to go hunting for SLA-only feats to apply to psionics; that includes Supernatural Transformation.


I'm sorry if it seems like I'm running this into the ground, but I pointed out this issue to KA in the original thread on GitP when we started this guide and he hasn't got around to removing it from the list yet. I think the trick is cool and all, but if we start allowing houserule tricks in the guide there's no telling how long and unwieldy it could end up. There's more than enough RAW exploits in the psionics rules without resorting to things that simply don't work by any true reading.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2011, 06:23:24 PM »
quite true, and thank you for the quotes. based on what you have shown, i'm inclined to think you are correct. i'll have to edit that then.

come to think of it, i seem to recall a feat calling itself out as an exception to the psi-mag transparency rules... but that may hav ebeen describing the circumstances, rather than the actual feat itself.

in any case i'll have to include your most helpful quotes.

Offline littha

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2011, 12:28:47 PM »
My interpritation lies with this:
Quote
Telepathy, mental combat and psychic powers—psionics is a catchall word that describes special mental abilities possessed by various creatures. These are spell-like abilities  that a creature generates from the power of its mind alone—no other outside magical force or ritual is needed. Each psionic creature’s description contains details on its psionic abilities.

Those feats apply to spell likes... either way its a stupid idea to acually try and use.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2011, 03:39:35 PM »
heh. i know my dm would book a flight just so he could smack me with the collected works in hardcover of louis mcmaster bujold, if i tried it.

Offline nijineko

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Re: Psionic Tricks Handbook: Brainstorms - by kalaskaagathas
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2011, 05:47:26 PM »

***snip***


trick updated to include your information.