Power's Tier List for Pathfinder

[Power]

Honestly, between 6th level casting and Animal Companion, he's a Tier 3. It's not a good Tier 3, as it's really a Druid Minus the same way the Warpriest was a Cleric Minus, but it's still Tier 3.

[Tsriel]

The final version of the ACG (Advanced Class Guide) released on the 14th. While there were some minor revisions and changes here and there from the final playtest version to the final printing, I think the OPs listing still holds up. Of course, this isn't account for any of the new archtypes that released with the book for classes both new and old.

I think alot of them are pretty bad, but there are a few that are just flat out broken. (Looking at you, Spirit Summoner.) Which archtypes stand out to you?

[Frogman55]

Not an archetype, but I've been really happy getting Arcane Deed and Flamboyant Arcana on my Magus. The constant level to precision damage is a wonderful boost. (Fun fact, as written the Swashbuckler's precise strike only requires that you don't attack with a weapon or use a shield other than a buckler. You can still attack with a spell.) I don't parry & riposte often, as the arcane pool doesn't recharge as easily as panache, but it is one more layer onto your defenses.

Also, I wonder if the Bloodrager shouldn't move up a tier. They've got a better spell list now, and the bloodline selections open up even more flexibility. They also have a reason to not dump Cha, and enough skill points to do something useful even if they do dump Int.

Worth noting: The Primalist archetype is nothing but a straight improvement over a vanilla barbarian. You give up 1 HP a level (d10 instead of d12), and trap sense, and get bloodlines, spells, blood sanctuary, and can still get as many rage powers as before (although you do need to wait 4 levels to pick two, instead of picking one every 2 levels).

I appreciate the Bolt Ace for gunslinger's too. It lets a player use the class even when you have an anti-firearm GM.

[Mithril Leaf]

The final version of the ACG (Advanced Class Guide) released on the 14th. While there were some minor revisions and changes here and there from the final playtest version to the final printing, I think the OPs listing still holds up. Of course, this isn't account for any of the new archtypes that released with the book for classes both new and old.

I think alot of them are pretty bad, but there are a few that are just flat out broken. (Looking at you, Spirit Summoner.) Which archtypes stand out to you?

I'm apparently missing something with Spirit Summoner, what's so bjorked about it? I mean, it trades one of the better not spellcasting class features in the game for the ability to get a spirit, most of which are not that great.

[Endarire]

For archetypes that change a class's tier ranking (such as from low tier X to mid tier X, or from tier Y to tier Z), can we have separate entries on this list?  JaronK had separate Binder entries when using the summon monster vestage (tier 2) and not (tier 3).

[PsyBomb]

Exploiter Wizard manages to be even stronger than the base class, somehow. Not QUITE T0, but close.

[Power]

Brawler moved down to Tier 5 since Martial Master Lore Warden Fighter makes the Brawler look pointless. But at least Brawler 1 / Monk of Many Styles 1 is a great way to get Pummeling Charge at level 2. Moving Fighter up to Tier 4 thanks to Martial Master and Mutation Warrior mostly.

I do mention archetypes that change a class's ranking (such as Razmiran Priest Sorcerer).

Exploiter Wizard is damn strong, yes.

[linklord231]

I'm apparently missing something with Spirit Summoner, what's so bjorked about it? I mean, it trades one of the better not spellcasting class features in the game for the ability to get a spirit, most of which are not that great.

I wouldn't call it bjorked, but the good part of Spirit Summoner is getting Hexes.  The Life spirit in particular is good for a Summoner, and the Nature spirit is no slouch either. 

[Cyrocloud]

So since the Occult Adventures playtest is out does anyone have opinions on where the classes are strength wise?

I was thinking the Kineticist is probably Tier 4 or 5 because they don't have much utility and don't really do that much damage unless you take damage yourself. I have no idea on the Mediums, their abilities interact differently and they seem to favor melee I think. So probably tier 4 or low tier 3. Mesmerists are probably low tier 3 or high tier 4 since they seem to be weaker less useful bards. Occultists seem pretty balanced and can learn up to 7 spells a level to cast spontaneously and a strong even if their list is fairly limited.  I'd probably guess it's tier 3. Spiritists are weaker summoners so tier 3 I guess, and Psions being the full casters of the book are probably tier 2 or low tier 1.

Also would the Primal Companion Hunter be a higher tier than a Hunter? It seems like a complete upgrade, and if your companion dies you become a synthesist summoner with a better chasis, you can even take the divine hunter archetype with it and gain a domain.

[zook1shoe]

when do you think you'll add the unchained versions?

[deadkitten]

when do you think you'll add the unchained versions?

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't really see the unchained versions of the classes really changing their tiers.

[PsyBomb]

when do you think you'll add the unchained versions?

I'm probably in the minority, but I don't really see the unchained versions of the classes really changing their tiers.

UnRogue, at the very least, moved up to T4 (or, at least, Blue category in T5). Barb and Summoner stay right where they were, Monk is... debatable.

[zook1shoe]

Was just curious,  haven't delved much into the Un's

[Power]

Updated with un-tiers.

Also moved Rogue down to Tier 6 because I think "not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise" describes the rogue's sneak attack quite well (also their UMD, trapfinding, and skill monkey status). The Archaeologist Bard basically does everything the Rogue does more competently too.

[Snowbluff]

Huh? Is the Unsummoner still T2?

Wasn't the spell list (ie, their T2 abilities. Lost of Simulacrum and getting utility spells late is glaring) nerfed? Isn't the new eidolon dysfunctional (unarmed strikes count against max attacks)?

I think alchemist needs to be moved up. In terms of capabilities, it's not too off the mark from Summoner. They get a lot of the same abilities either through discoveries or ACFs. You can build one with beefy stats via mutagens, SNA, and Simulacrum.

[zook1shoe]

what about vigilante.... at least until updated

[Power]

Huh? Is the Unsummoner still T2?

Wasn't the spell list (ie, their T2 abilities. Lost of Simulacrum and getting utility spells late is glaring) nerfed? Isn't the new eidolon dysfunctional (unarmed strikes count against max attacks)?

They still get a ludicrous amount of max-level summons to stomp all combats (with just a standard action instead of 1 round casting time) and obtain a massive list of skills/SLAs/etc. on demand (which are usable for the Summoner's party courtesy of the minutes/lvl duration), plus Gate, while still casting like a half-assed Wizard (except with inexplicable armor proficiencies and 3/4 BAB). That's the main reason why.

And the Eidolon really isn't dysfunctional. It's toned down, but it's still mainly an animal companion on steroids, and animal companions are already ridiculous. And honestly the ability to give an Eidolon 8 pairs of arms so he can pounce for 16 attacks with Multi-weapon Fighting in addition to his natural attacks was pretty ridiculous.

I think alchemist needs to be moved up. In terms of capabilities, it's not too off the mark from Summoner. They get a lot of the same abilities either through discoveries or ACFs. You can build one with beefy stats via mutagens, SNA, and Simulacrum.

And with the Planar Preservationist feat you can obtain Summon Monster instead of SNA with your Alchemist, but your summons are more limited than any other summoner and you can't benefit from spellcasting feats and perks like Superior Summonings, Summon Neutral Monster, Greater Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) for Added Summonings, Metamagics, Robe of Gates, etc. I agree the alchemist is strong, but Tier 3 is not a weak tier either. Tier 2 is just the tier for people with nuclear options at their disposal. The Alchemist's bigger argument for going nuclear is that a Fast Bomb discovery coupled with TWF and Rapid Shot basically turns him into a 3.5 Flask Rogue on steroids capable of novaing most bosses to death in 1 round.

[Unbeliever]

Having built a few powerful Alchemists lately, I find it hard to think of them as being as powerful, Tiers-wise, as a Summoner or an Oracle or a Sorcerer.  The spellcasting firepower of the others is simply too much and too flexible, and the Summoner has the huge action economy advantage.

[Power]

The Alchemist also gets an action economy advantage in the form of infusions. Just getting a tumor familiar and decking it with Poisoner's Gloves gives you 2 free infusions at the start of combat without wasting a single action by having your familiar use 2 natural/unarmed attacks. The Planar Preservationist also gets ridiculous if he makes a ton of summon monster infusions and has his summoned monsters activate them to summon more monsters in a 1 round cascade of unleashing all your summons.

At any rate the tier list generally acknowledges that in the hands of an optimal player most classes will go up a tier or more and in the hands of a bad player they will go down a tier or more. Instead it goes with what a general competent player is likely to do with the class. The Bard is a good example since an optimized Bard is easily Tier 2 while a badly played Bard might reach Tier 5. In other words, tier lists can be total shit since they depend on the lister cherrypicking assumptions about default playstyle and closing an eye to some broken perks but not others. In the end many tier lists operate off of a lazy assumption of "prepared full casters are tier 1, spontaneous full casters are tier 2, 6th level casters are tier 3, 4th level casters are tier 4, really strong martials are tier 4, normal to meh martials are tier 5, and shit that plain doesn't work is tier 6."

[Unbeliever]

The Alchemist also gets an action economy advantage in the form of infusions. Just getting a tumor familiar and decking it with Poisoner's Gloves gives you 2 free infusions at the start of combat without wasting a single action by having your familiar use 2 natural/unarmed attacks. The Planar Preservationist also gets ridiculous if he makes a ton of summon monster infusions and has his summoned monsters activate them to summon more monsters in a 1 round cascade of unleashing all your summons.

At any rate the tier list generally acknowledges that in the hands of an optimal player most classes will go up a tier or more and in the hands of a bad player they will go down a tier or more. Instead it goes with what a general player is likely to do with the class.

The Alchemist has several options to exploit action economy.  But, you're kind of just reiterating my point.  These are fairly sophisticated optimization tricks.  The Poisoner's Gloves is fairly cunning -- if a well-known trick by now.  The Summoner's action economy is baked into the class.  I contend that the usage of such things on the part of an Alchemist falls into the "optimal player, +1 Tier" methodology whereas  Summoner's action economy falls into the "duh, you're playing a Summoner" category. 

I can't really speak to how an Alchemist's summons stack up in their own right.