Author Topic: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage  (Read 14858 times)

Offline PsyBomb

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Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« on: December 09, 2013, 06:20:07 PM »
Basically as the title says. I am trying to put together a build, mostly Martial, for this to work. The DM does not like offensive casters too much, but his stat-rolling tends to generate high so I'm not terribly scared of MAD. Also means that I'm likely to go Human, since I probably won't be desperate for stats (and the two main stats of the build don't really get boosted by races often). Haven't done too much ToB, so bear with me here. What I have so far:

Crusader 5/Battle Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 9

Ends with CL 13 for 6th level effects (remember that I won't be using SoS/SoD or most blasting), BAB +19 and IL 17 for one 9th level maneuver. Had to drop a level of JPM in order to get that one, since the last level gains no maneuvers and I'd only have a 16 IL at level 19. DM already houseruled that the Mage Armor series will count as Abjurations, and others will be allowed on a case-by-case basis. White Raven school will be my primary focus for maneuvers (early, anyway), backed up by a dash of Devoted Spirit. Might drop a couple of feats to pick up Iron Heart Surge if I have them to spare, but I'll already need to bust one or two on Desert Wind in order to take the higher-level ones under JPM. The JPM maneuvers will be 50/50 between Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind. There will be at least one other melee type, but it is unknown if he will be mostly skillful .

Stat priority is Str>Cha(Max16)=Dex=Con>Wis>Int

Battle Sorc can wear light armor, so some nice Leather to hang enchantments onto will be good. So will a Mithril Buckler. Both also become very nice if an enemy gets dispel-happy. Intended weapon is a Greatsword, which is also a favored White Raven weapon. Trying not to use Flaws if I can avoid it, which I shouldn't have to.

Level/Maneuvers/Feats:

1) Cru1: Douse the Flames, Lead the Charge, Vanguard's Strike, Charging Minotaur, Crusader's Strike. Iron Guard's Glare stance. Extra Granted Maneuver, Weapon Focus (Greatsword).
2) Cru2: Leading the Charge stance.
3) Cru3: Mountain Hammer. ? feat
4) Cru4: Retrain Crusader's Strike (Shield Block if allowed with Shield spell, Battle Leader's Charge otherwise)
5) Cru5: White Raven Tactics.
6) Sor1: Combat Casting feat.
7) Abj1:
8) Abj2:
9) Abj3: ? feat
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:37:10 PM by PsyBomb »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 10:44:52 AM »
Since you're just using armor for the properties, not the AC, you can use Thistledown Padded armor (RotW) for its 0% ASF and use a different spellcasting basis than Battle Sorc. At the very least you could get 1 more spell known and per day per spell level by taking regular Sorcerer instead. Switching to Wizard would open up 7th level spells at the completion of your build instead of only a pair of 6th-levels known as a Sorcerer. Specialize and you'll have about as many of your top-level spells per day as a Sorcerer, anyways.

If you stick with Sorcerer, consider the Divine Companion ACF. You trade away your familiar for some huge AC and saving throw bonuses on demand. You can also use it to heal in a pinch, but it's not that efficient and Crusader maneuvers should be taking care of that anyways.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 11:04:13 AM »
You keep revising this, so I'm going to ask some questions that I'm not clear on, and then some questions about what you want your character to be.

First, why crusader?  Crusaders' random maneuver mechanic severely limits their ability to have the right tool for the job, and maneuver recovery is not that important unless you're playing in a very weird campaign with combat that lasts more than twice as long as normal.  You're PrCing so your ability to use steely resolve and furious counterstrike is limited, and that's really the best crusader feature by far.  The only reason I see to ever use crusader is for Devoted Spirit access, because neither of the other base classes get that.  Jade phoenix mage does, though.  What devoted spirit abilities do you even want?

Second, why sorcerer?  Spontaneous casters really get the shaft in 3.5 for no reason---prep casting with expansive spell knowledge is actually better than spontaneous casting with very limited spell knowledge when everything else is equal.  Sorcerer gets screwed in multiple ways on top of that.  Sorcerer is more or less never optimal, the best you can do with it is usually using some ACFs and variants to make it less terrible.  You might be picking a suboptimal choice deliberately, but I'm curious to know why.

Third, why battle sorcerer?   Battle sorcerer ganks its spellcasting for proficiencies that don't matter because you're multiclassing, the cast-in-light-armor thing, and improvements to BAB and HD that don't matter because you advance its spellcasting with a PrC.  Battle sorcerer is remarkably terrible under all circumstances and  absolutely awful if you intend to take a PrC---of course, sorcerers should always take a PrC since they have no class features to lose.  The ability to cast in light armor is not worth much, especially since you're an abjurant champion and you'll get good AC from casting spells.  The twilight property (MIC 15, PH2 21, BE 112), feycraft (DMG2 274–275) and githcraft (275–276) armor templates,  and the thistledown suit armor modification (RW 168–169) all reduce ASF.  There are a bunch of ways to get 0 ASF when you use them in combination.

Fourth, why four levels of TB base class and one level of caster rather than the other way around?  TB base classes have fairly noticeable incentives for delaying entry because of the front-loading of maneuvers and getting initiator level from other classes.  Taking four levels of your caster class first gives you the choice of 2nd-level strikes at your first TB base class level.  This choice is defensible, but I'm curious what you're planning to do with spells, maneuvers, and stances to make it work.  What level are you starting at?

Fifth, why a greatsword?  Sure, higher base damage than any core weapon but a greataxe and better variance than a greataxe, yada yada, but base weapon damage barely matters after low levels because it's overwhelmed by other sources of damage.

You've already answered the question of what you want your offense to be---melee damage, not SoDs.  Jade phoenix mage has decent damage sources, as Desert Wind is probably the best damage discipline in TB and Devoted Spirit has some damage options as well, and you'll have buffs from your casting class.  I'm curious what you're actually planning to pick, though, especially which stance.  What are your DM's opinions about how charging maneuvers interact with pounce and whether you count as your own ally?  As I see it, this character could go two ways: focus on buffing your own melee damage or take spells/strikes/stances that benefit your party members as well.  What will the rest of the party be?  You mentioned one other melee, so melee support may be viable.  The other question is, what are you going to do out of combat?  This is one place where sorcerer fails because you really don't have room for both combat and non-combat spells in your very limited spells known.  Wizard could cover this.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 01:24:55 PM by Iainuki »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 12:28:50 PM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm revising as I get input from other sources as well, so I'll answer here.

Crusader is because otherwise I'd have to bust several feats to get prereq maneuvers. Desert Wind in particular is harsh about this, but everything in Devoted Spirit at 6+ level needs other DS maneuvers as prereqs as well. Build was originally Warblade/Wiz(Abj).

Sorcerer was to synergize Cha bonuses, and because I have a reflexive need to reduce MAD. Battle Sorc was because  forgot about Thistledown Padded armor entirely, so I can fix it now.

Initiator4/Caster1 was because I wanted to hit 9th level maneuvers

Greatsword is just a good 2H weapon, and this guy will be a 2H guy. Open to suggestions for better options.

About to re-revise back to Warblade/Wiz, now that I'm building it and finding tons of feat space. Probably going to be VERY heavy on the Devoted Spirit in JPM if I don't go Swordsage (and I don't like their recovery method), since he's intended to be tanky. Also don't know starting level yet, but the DM has mentioned that he prefers "builds that could have made it that far", so I'm making sure he's playable at least at all levels.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 01:53:35 PM »
Thanks for the responses. I'm revising as I get input from other sources as well, so I'll answer here.

Crusader is because otherwise I'd have to bust several feats to get prereq maneuvers. Desert Wind in particular is harsh about this, but everything in Devoted Spirit at 6+ level needs other DS maneuvers as prereqs as well. Build was originally Warblade/Wiz(Abj).

I haven't worked out a progression but from playing around with the system before, I think this is a soluble problem, especially if your DM is liberal about how prerequisites and swapping work.

Sorcerer was to synergize Cha bonuses, and because I have a reflexive need to reduce MAD.

When thinking about MAD, it is absolutely critical to analyze what those ability points are getting you.  At crusader 4, each point of Cha bonus gives you +1 Will save.  That's it.  It is so not worth it.  There are many other cheaper ways to increase your Will save with other character resources, and you have two Will-favored classes in your progression anyways.

Greatsword is just a good 2H weapon, and this guy will be a 2H guy. Open to suggestions for better options.

I encourage everyone playing two-handed melee characters to take reach weapons unless they have some strong reason not to.  Big monsters have reach and being outreached by enemies is tactically very limiting.

Probably going to be VERY heavy on the Devoted Spirit in JPM if I don't go Swordsage (and I don't like their recovery method), since he's intended to be tanky.

About swordsages' recovery mechanic: so what?  How many combats will run long enough so you run out of maneuvers and can't do anything useful without them when you have full attacks and spells to fall back on?  D&D combats are usually no more than five rounds, especially if the players know what they're doing.  Meanwhile, swordsage also gets more maneuvers known than the other base classes, giving them more endurance before they run out and more versatility in handling different combat situations, and better discipline access.  The only real disadvantage for swordsage for your character that I see is the loss of BAB may slow your progression without fractional BAB.  However, unless you're quite certain the campaign will make it to level 20, why does what happens then even matter?  Even if you do make it there, how many encounters will you actually face at 20th level?

What do you mean by "tanky?"  If you mean "has good defenses" honestly any of these characters count.

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 10:04:59 PM »
Stat array rolls (starting): 18, 16, 15, 12, 10, 9

Using the Warblade/Wiz arrangement...

Str  18
Dex 15
Con 12
Int  16
Wis 10
Cha  9

First point into Dex, next two into Str, then into Int.

Upper maneuvers are going to go into Devoted Spirit, since fire damage is resisted so much. Will take two feats to enable this. Alignment of LN in order to use Aura of Perfect Order. Lower is going to be a mix, mostly Iron Heart and Diamond Mind. Currently working up my build and maneuver choices, will post once I have a rough outline. This guy looks like he's going to be more tough than strong, but between Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and Thicket of Blades with a reach weapon I'll be keeping the melee heat off of my team.

Guisarm or Glaive as a primary weapon, though Warblade means this is not as set in stone as it could be. Not going Swordsage mostly due to the lost point of BAB. I want to actually have the build run its full course if I get the opportunity to.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 10:21:20 PM by PsyBomb »

Offline DavidWL

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 12:40:02 AM »
You keep revising this, so I'm going to ask some questions that I'm not clear on, and then some questions about what you want your character to be.

First, why crusader? ...

Second, why sorcerer?  ...

Third, why battle sorcerer?   ...

Fourth, why four levels of TB base class and one level of caster ...

Fifth, why a greatsword?  ...


+1

Iainuki really hit spot on and I agree 100%

Best,
David

Offline Daebu

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 04:54:32 PM »
Sorc/Crus/Abj Champ/JPM?

1) If you've got LA buyoff, consider the Draconic Template. The flavour is right, there's some nice goodies, and the stats are exactly what you want. All for only +1LA.

2) Alternatively, consider UA Bloodlines. Bloodlines and ToB are absolutely delicious together. Conveniently both Gold and Silver Dragons have statted Bloodlines with the right stats, some goodies, and the aforementioned wonderful interaction between Initiator Level and Bloodline levels. This is a bit more investment, and the payoff will be a distinct power boost.

Both of these options also give you Dragonblood, which happens to work really well mechanically with numerous Sorcerer spells. It also gives your character a natural fluff reason to be blessed with spellcasting.

Edit:
Iainuki,  he's building a largely martial character. He loses even more BaB by using Swordsage. (MY DM doesn't use fractional BaB. He might not be the only.) Secondly while you addressed Cha Synergy, the Crusader has a strong Fort save; something his character desperately wants. The SS doesn't. Lastly, while I agree that SS gets more options at the beginning of combat, he doesn't really need them as much since he's a caster. And if he goes SS, he'll not get White Raven Tactics. This is on top of a no-action recovery (which you partially addressed).

In short, his build will get stronger Action Economy, better Fort save, and better BaB.

Edit 2: Psybomb, consider going regular Sorc and 1 level of Spellsword
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 05:30:24 PM by Daebu »

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 06:53:56 PM »
Iainuki,  he's building a largely martial character. He loses even more BaB by using Swordsage. (MY DM doesn't use fractional BaB. He might not be the only.) Secondly while you addressed Cha Synergy, the Crusader has a strong Fort save; something his character desperately wants. The SS doesn't. Lastly, while I agree that SS gets more options at the beginning of combat, he doesn't really need them as much since he's a caster. And if he goes SS, he'll not get White Raven Tactics. This is on top of a no-action recovery (which you partially addressed).

In short, his build will get stronger Action Economy, better Fort save, and better BaB.

Right, not everyone uses fractional BAB, I mentioned that.  You've touched on one of my personal bugaboos: higher BAB is not the end-all be-all of weapon users.  In fact, chasing higher BAB no matter what often leads to worse characters, principally because WotC systematically overvalued BAB when writing classes and so most of the best classes have 3/4 BAB.  This holds in TB too.  Taking swordsage does make this character slower to meet BAB requirements for the PrCs.  Does that make this character weaker?  That's my point: swordsage has generally better martial powers.  Likewise, I'm not convinced that slowing down the progression makes this character worse.  I haven't looked in detail at that or on whether having better casting would make this character better at melee.  Sometimes, taking more levels in non-casting classes makes you better at melee, sometimes not.  As for the Fort save issue, frankly, just like for the Will save, there are less expensive ways of increasing your Fort save than taking warblade or crusader instead of swordsage, and as Fort save is a defensive stat, it's always less important than improving your offense or your utility.  White raven tactics is in fact brokenly powerful if you have allies who are full casters  or otherwise have standard-action abilities that are as powerful as full attacks, but I generally disregard broken abilities because we all know how to break the game and from an optimization perspective, these are dominating options.

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 07:44:32 PM »
I do not want to slow down the progression of the character at this point, mostly because hitting Abjurant Champion 2 ASAP is critical for the build. You do make a good point about how preparing what you want is better than not having to take an action, but I do want White Raven Tactics as well. Warblade 5 does both.

With that switch, using the UA variant of Wizard that trades its bonus feat list and Scribe Scroll to get the feat list of a Fighter and a bonus feat at first level becomes unbelievably good, and frees up a feat for DS prereqs. Again, rebuilding, will probably post it in a moment once I put it all together.

EDIT: Here's what I have so far.

Intending to be LN on this build
UA Wizard Variant to trade feat lists with the Fighter list, replaces Scribe Scroll with a bonus feat.
Concentration kept maxed
Plan on banning Evocation and Enchantment.

Code: [Select]
Intending to be LN on this build
UA Wizard Variant to trade feat lists with the Fighter list, replaces Scribe Scroll with a bonus feat.
Concentration kept maxed

Lvl | Class/Level      | Feats                                             | Maneuvers
1   | Warblade 1       | Power Attack, Combat Expertise                    | Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Steel Wind. Punishing Stance       
2   | Warblade 2       |                                                   | Moment of Perfect Mind
3   | Warblade 3       | Martial Study (Foehammer)                         | Mountain Hammer
4   | Warblade 4       |                                                   | Stance of Clarity. Not retraining                           
5   | Warblade 5       | Combat Reflexes                                   | White Raven Tactics
6   | UA Wizard (Abj) 1| Combat Casting, Improved Trip                     |
7   | Abjurant Champ 1 |                                                   |             
8   | Abjurant Champ 2 |                                                   |
9   | Abjurant Champ 3 | Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades)                |
10  | Abjurant Champ 4 |                                                   |                         
11  | Abjurant Champ 5 |                                                   |
12  | Jade Phoenix 1   | Stand Still                                       | Daunting Strike
13  | Jade Phoenix 2   |                                                   |     
14  | Jade Phoenix 3   |                                                   | Rallying Strike
15  | Jade Phoenix 4   | Robilar's Gambit                                  |                             
16  | Jade Phoenix 5   |                                                   | Castigating Strike. Aura of Perfect Order stance
17  | Jade Phoenix 6   |                                                   |
18  | Jade Phoenix 7   | Martial Stance (Immortal Fortitude)               | Greater Divine Surge
19  | Jade Phoenix 8   |                                                   |
20  | Jade Phoenix 9   |                                                   | Strike of Righteous Vitality

Ends with 7 readied maneuvers. Will have either armor spikes or a Cestus to threaten adjacent.

EDIT2: Thank you Garryl, I believe I have fixed what you pointed out. Mostly feat shuffling (also means that I hope we get to start at or near 5, since Combat Reflexes is what the build works on)
EDIT3: Daebu's trip suggestions looked awesome, so they went in.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 08:25:14 AM by PsyBomb »

Offline Garryl

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 08:55:08 PM »
You can't learn Hunter's Stance at level 4 because you don't know any Tiger Claw maneuvers yet.
Stand Still is not a Warblade bonus feat. You can't take it at 5th level. Combat Reflexes is on the list so you can move it down from 1st to 5th and take it as the bonus feat, swapping it with Stand Still.
You can't take Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) at level 6 as you don't know any Devoted Spirit maneuvers yet.
You can't take Weapon Specialization at level 12 because your effective Fighter level is only 3 (Warblade 5 - 2).

Offline Daebu

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Re: Crusader/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 09:29:38 PM »

/snip

As for the Fort save issue, frankly, just like for the Will save, there are less expensive ways of increasing your Fort save than taking warblade or crusader instead of swordsage, and as Fort save is a defensive stat, it's always less important than improving your offense or your utility.  White raven tactics is in fact brokenly powerful if you have allies who are full casters  or otherwise have standard-action abilities that are as powerful as full attacks, but I generally disregard broken abilities because we all know how to break the game and from an optimization perspective, these are dominating options.

I always find it odd when folks make comments about things being broken, but then encourage rocket tag by having poor defenses. :p

As for WRT. It's fantastic. It doesn't have to be broken. It is worth the switch all by its lonesome.

Psybomb, have you thought of using Conjurer for its Immediate Magic variant? Abrupt Jaunt is worth it.

Punishing Stance gets weak fast. Either grab Hunter's Sense at Level 1 and use Sudden Leap (and pump Jump enough to make it useful) as a Corequisite. Or forget about Tiger Claw altogether.

You're missing your level 3 maneuver. Warblade is odd in that it gets an extra maneuver at both 2 and 3. Then starts alternating. I'd suggest Wall of Blades or Mountain Hammer. They stay relevant all the way to 20.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 09:42:50 PM by Daebu »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 10:17:26 PM »
You can't learn Hunter's Stance at level 4 because you don't know any Tiger Claw maneuvers yet.
Stand Still is not a Warblade bonus feat. You can't take it at 5th level. Combat Reflexes is on the list so you can move it down from 1st to 5th and take it as the bonus feat, swapping it with Stand Still.
You can't take Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) at level 6 as you don't know any Devoted Spirit maneuvers yet.
You can't take Weapon Specialization at level 12 because your effective Fighter level is only 3 (Warblade 5 - 2).

Many thanks for being MUCH more observant than I am. I believe that I have fixed the errors.

I always find it odd when folks make comments about things being broken, but then encourage rocket tag by having poor defenses. :p

As for WRT. It's fantastic. It doesn't have to be broken. It is worth the switch all by its lonesome.

Psybomb, have you thought of using Conjurer for its Immediate Magic variant? Abrupt Jaunt is worth it.

Punishing Stance gets weak fast. Either grab Hunter's Sense at Level 1 and use Sudden Leap (and pump Jump enough to make it useful) as a Corequisite. Or forget about Tiger Claw altogether.

You're missing your level 3 maneuver. Warblade is odd in that it gets an extra maneuver at both 2 and 3. Then starts alternating. I'd suggest Wall of Blades or Mountain Hammer. They stay relevant all the way to 20.

Can't seem to find the Conjurer variant you are talking about. Only one I can find has to do with Summon monster, which I won't be doing much of. Thanks for pointing out the missing maneuver, Mountain Hammer is being added now. Going to forget about Tiger Claw, though still using Jump for Leap Attack.

Offline Daebu

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 10:31:04 PM »
PHBII

Trade your familiar for an Immediate Action teleport 10 feet, Int mod times per day. Opponent charged with pounce? No problem, AJ away. On the edge of a Fireball or Glitterdust? AJ away. Grappled? AJ away. Wall in your way? AJ through it. Opponent not in reach? AJ forward (you can use an immediate action as a swift action so long as you didn't already burn it) May cause DM rage if used to break rays or ranged attacks. Or may cause him to decide they change direction mid-air. :P

EDIT: And I could be wrong here, but I'm fairly certain Leap Attack only works if you're charging. You have neither Pounce (Barb ACF) nor Pouncing Charge (maneuver). Therefore while nice, Leap Attack is not that powerful for you. As you're going JPM, I'd suggest sticking with Trip build feats.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 10:34:18 PM by Daebu »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2013, 08:22:43 AM »
PHBII

Trade your familiar for an Immediate Action teleport 10 feet, Int mod times per day. Opponent charged with pounce? No problem, AJ away. On the edge of a Fireball or Glitterdust? AJ away. Grappled? AJ away. Wall in your way? AJ through it. Opponent not in reach? AJ forward (you can use an immediate action as a swift action so long as you didn't already burn it) May cause DM rage if used to break rays or ranged attacks. Or may cause him to decide they change direction mid-air. :P

EDIT: And I could be wrong here, but I'm fairly certain Leap Attack only works if you're charging. You have neither Pounce (Barb ACF) nor Pouncing Charge (maneuver). Therefore while nice, Leap Attack is not that powerful for you. As you're going JPM, I'd suggest sticking with Trip build feats.

Found it (wasn't on dndtools, had to go in myself), and it got approved. He just asked me not to use it to dodge rays/missiles unless the situation is really desperate. Thanks for mentioning the Trip sequence stuff, I can probably use it better than Stand Still and the fact that it's a Fighter Bonus Feat means it can come online at level 6 with some rearranging (editing it again, now).

DM said most likely level is going to be 7, with standard WBL (19k, no more than 6k on any one item). Party consists of myself, a Favored Soul (going into Contemplative), a DW Rogue, and an Archer. Possibly going to have an intermittent Sorceress, but she's notably low-opt and will likely be doing little to contribute. Char sheet is due by Sunday.

First thing on the menu is a Guisarm and the Thistledown Padded Armor with Spikes. I can wait for the buckler unless I can afford a decent level of enchants on it. Can't afford a Belt of Battle yet. We'll see on the rest as I go.

Spells... well, he let me straight trade the familiar for the Jaunt ability, so I'm still an Abjurer. 3 1st-level slots per day, two will be Mage Armor (auto-Extended to 4 hours each, for all-day coverage) and the third will be Enlarge Person in case of emergency.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 10:30:43 AM by PsyBomb »

Offline Daebu

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 09:12:04 AM »
PHBII

Trade your familiar for an Immediate Action teleport 10 feet, Int mod times per day. Opponent charged with pounce? No problem, AJ away. On the edge of a Fireball or Glitterdust? AJ away. Grappled? AJ away. Wall in your way? AJ through it. Opponent not in reach? AJ forward (you can use an immediate action as a swift action so long as you didn't already burn it) May cause DM rage if used to break rays or ranged attacks. Or may cause him to decide they change direction mid-air. :P

EDIT: And I could be wrong here, but I'm fairly certain Leap Attack only works if you're charging. You have neither Pounce (Barb ACF) nor Pouncing Charge (maneuver). Therefore while nice, Leap Attack is not that powerful for you. As you're going JPM, I'd suggest sticking with Trip build feats.

Found it (wasn't on dndtools, had to go in myself), and it got approved. He just asked me not to use it to dodge rays/missiles unless the situation is really desperate. Thanks for mentioning the Trip sequence stuff, I can probably use it better than Stand Still and the fact that it's a Fighter Bonus Feat means it can come online at level 6 with some rearranging (editing it again, now).

DM said most likely level is going to be 7, with standard WBL. Party consists of myself, a Favored Soul (going into Contemplative), a DW Rogue, and an Archer. Possibly going to have an intermittent Sorceress, but she's notably low-opt and will likely be doing little to contribute. Char sheet is due by Sunday

Just so long as he realizes that AJ, as an immediate action, is usable to make full attacks whiff. Or if there's barriers around it makes it really easy to dodge spells. My DM was fine with it. In fact he said I'd be crazy not to take it. It's a really nice "I don't die today" ability. Your character could also use it to re-position for yet more tripping action without needing to take AoO's yourself. Conveniently, Conjurer is also a fantastic school specialization.

I'll take a look at your low level maneuvers. I have a feeling they could be strengthened.

Edit: I'd still recommend the Draconic Template:
Darkvision+Low Light Vision; +1 NA; bonus on saves against sleep/paralysis; bonus to Spot and Intimidate; +2Str +2Con +2Cha; All for +1 LA.
Use LA buyoff from UA. You'll eventually catch back up on XP based on the way XP gains are made. Even if you don't, by level 7 you'll only be a partial level behind.

From a character perspective, it is supposed to have a small but noticable effect on your appearance. Maybe one eye is draconic/feral looking. Maybe one side of your face has scales. Maybe your voice sounds draconic. Maybe you have an dragon influenced personality. (Judicious Gold, friendly Silver, greedy Red, duplicitous Black, etc)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 09:22:35 AM by Daebu »

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2013, 04:47:44 PM »
I have some other questions and comments/criticism.  (I'm actually writing a guide on the topic of tactical melee/trippers/lockdown builds.)  There's a lot going on here, so bear with me.

Where is your damage coming from?  Your total complement of damage maneuvers is punishing stance, foehammer, mountain hammer, castigating strike, and greater divine surge, and you don't get castigating strike and greater divine surge until very, very late.  You can make it up to a certain extent with spells, but with your abjuration specialization and your delayed spellcasting, I doubt they'll be enough.  What books are allowed?  I can give some suggestions, but honestly I think you're going to have to lean harder on your TB abilities to get damage.  You actually have two separate damage problems that require distinct but potentially overlapping solutions.  First, you need damage during your turn.  TB boosts and strikes can solve that for you.  You also need damage on AoOs, if for no other reason than that Stand Still's DC is based on damage.  Core monsters have an approximate Reflex save of .59*CR + 2.91, Stand Still gives a +10 bonus to the DC, and so you need about .59*level+12.91 damage for the save to be all but impossible.  TB characters in general have trouble getting damage off their turn since only stances and one strike add damage off your turn.  (If your DM lets you count as your own ally, there are some other strikes that add attack that you could theoretically convert to damage with Power Attack.)

For the first problem, you really have two options because JPM gives desert wind and devoted spirit.  You could try to build your character around charging, but I don't see immediately a good way for you to get pounce, and I don't know if your DM would let you benefit from leading the charge.  Desert wind has the blade boosts and flash of sunset for large bonus fire damage and works best with full attacks.  Devoted spirit has a variety of damage strikes, standard-action and full-round.  At low levels, warblade's damage options are exclusively standard-action strikes.  You want divine surge regardless of whether your DM has it deal 6d8 or 8d8 damage to fill in the gap between warblade and the higher-level Devoted Spirit maneuvers.  Arcane wrath can also help once you get it.

The second problem is a bit harder.  It's hard to increase damage with spells, standard-action or otherwise, in general.  Power Attack with wraithstrike is one method of solving this problem, Arcane Strike is another.  JPM's arcane wrath can't substitute here because it's a swift action, so you can't use it reactively when an AoO chance comes up, and it only works on one attack anyways.  Both Power Attack with wraithstrike and Arcane Strike add much more damage than abjurant champion's arcane boost.  Note that you can get Power Attack with heroics if you need it, eventually.  I prefer Arcane Strike because it isn't available via heroics and because it has better action economy than wraithstrike, arcane boost, or arcane wrath.  You can do both, of course, for ridiculous damage, if you don't mind burning through spell slots fast.  Beyond that, tactics of the wolf is one of the best early damage stances.  Thicket of blades is quite good, but if you're ever going to use another low-level stance at all, I think tactics of the wolf should be it, and it's much better than punishing stance especially since you're not starting at 1st level.  Unfortunately, getting tactics of the wolf requires some serious changing around of class levels.  I like aura of perfect order as well, but it's somewhat less beneficial for your character than TB characters in general because your skills will be quite limited so you won't have as many d20 rolls to use it on.  You might want to consider taking aura of chaos instead or in addition to it for the damage bonus to the dice from your strikes and Arcane Strike.  A more out-there suggestion is that, since your DM is very generous with stats, warblade 7 will give +Int to damage against flanked or flat-footed opponents and might also be a good way to increase your damage, but obviously that slows down everything else you want.

You have to be more efficient with your feats, maneuvers, and stances.  You have too many things that won't do much for you at the levels you take them or that don't have good long-term value and too many feats you could avoid taking by rearranging things.  Immortal fortitude and rallying strike are underpowered when you get them.  (Immortal fortitude is underpowered period.)  Douse the flames, punishing stance, foehammer, and stance of clarity will be obsolete by the time you start play.  Daunting strike can be good but you don't have anyway to stack fear, making it underwhelming at best.  I like Tiger Claw here mostly because the ability to move more than 10' as a swift action is great for melee and hunter's sense is pretty much the only 1st-level stance you have access to that will be useful.  Robilar's Gambit is a bad feat in general (it only works on enemies that want to hit you in melee, trading blows with monsters is a bad idea in general since monsters have bigger numbers than you, and most monsters don't do just damage with their attacks at CR 12 and more), so I would drop it.

1: warblade; Combat Expertise, Improved Trip; wolf fang strike (just as a prerequisite, it's completely useless, but you're not playing from 1st and you'll be retraining it later), sudden leap, moment of perfect mind; hunter's sense
2: warblade; steel wind
3: warblade: Stand Still; mountain hammer
4: warblade: claw at the moon or rabid wolf strike (retrained from wolf fang strike, if your DM is liberal with prerequisites you can retrain this to something useful like action before thought, emerald razor, or wall of blades); bolstering voice (largely useless, I'm using it as a prereq for WRT, the other stances do even less for you)
5: warblade: Combat Reflexes; white raven tactics
6: abjurer: Combat Casting, Martial Study (foehammer or vanguard strike)
7: abjurant champion
8: abjurant champion
9: abjurant champion: Martial Study (thicket of blades)
10: abjurant champion
11: abjurant champion
12: jade phoenix mage: Arcane Strike; divine surge
13: jade phoenix mage
14: jade phoenix mage: castigating strike
15: jade phoenix mage: Martial Study or Stance
16: jade phoenix mage: defensive rebuke (this boost never goes obsolete); aura of chaos or perfect order
17: jade phoenix mage:
18: jade phoenix mage: greater divine surge
19: jade phoenix mage: Martial Study or Stance
20: jade phoenix mage: strike of righteous vitality

Those high level Martial Studies or Stances could be whichever of chaos or perfect order you didn't take, or they could be high-level Diamond Mind or Iron Heart maneuvers that you have the prerequisites for from warblade.  Elder mountain hammer might also be worth looking at just for damage.  You could also consider Mage Slayer + Practiced Spellcaster or Supernatural Instincts.

I prefer the following progression, though, because it gets tactics of the wolf and some extra 2nd-level maneuvers and 3rd-level maneuvers instead of 1st-level ones, including potentially iron heart surge.

1: abjurer: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Stand Still
2: abjurer
3: warblade; claw at the moon or rabid wolf strike, sudden leap, leading the attack; hunter's sense
4: warblade; action before thought or wall of blades
5: warblade: Martial Study (foehammer or vanguard strike)
6: warblade: white raven tactics (retrained from action before thought, wall of blades, claw at the moon/rabid wolf strike, depending on how nice your DM is and what direction you want to go); tactics of the wolf
7: warblade: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes; iron heart surge, soaring raptor strike, etc.
8: abjurant champion
9: abjurant champion: Martial Study (thicket of blades)
10: abjurant champion
11: abjurant champion
12: abjurant champion: Arcane Strike
13: jade phoenix mage: divine surge
14: jade phoenix mage
15: jade phoenix mage: Martial Study or Stance; defensive rebuke
16: jade phoenix mage:
17: jade phoenix mage: castigating strike; aura of chaos or perfect order
18: jade phoenix mage: Martial Study or Stance
19: jade phoenix mage: greater divine surge
20: jade phoenix mage

I may have some other thoughts later.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 09:23:33 PM by Iainuki »

Offline PsyBomb

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2013, 06:40:53 PM »
I'm actually getting ready to drop Stand Still entirely. Like you said, damage is a problem off-turn. You make a good point on Robilar's Gambit as well, no need to expose myself to that kind of incoming damage. I'd already intended to be using Wraithstrike starting next level for offense, which is why I didn't go for any of the Razor line of abilities. That, paired with Transmutation effects, mostly solves the melee damage problem. You're right, I need to work on the efficiency of the levels, and now that I know it's all starting at 7 there are a few things I can do to make it go smoother. You covered them pretty well :)

I will look over the feats and maneuvers you've suggested, though I know that the build levels and order will stay as they are for now. LOVE Supernatural Instincts, never knew it existed before. I think like like the Tiger Claw dips as well, just need to visualize what Tumble checks look like while carrying a polearm. Thank you for pointing me in the direction.

Spell damage, I'm not worried about. I will rarely if ever be casting damaging spells in this build. I don't mind burning through spell slots quickly, either, as I will usually only need to actually use 1-2 slots per level per day in the normal course of things (other than, ironically, first level slots for my main defenses).

Practiced Spellcaster is not needed in this build, due to BAB 19 and the Abjurant Champion 5 ability, which makes my wizard caster level equal to my BAB.

Thank you for all the help you've given me here, the character would not be nearly as good without it.

Offline Iainuki

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2013, 10:15:09 PM »
I had to leave earlier so didn't quite finish everything I was thinking.  There's not much more, though.  When I said Practiced Spellcaster, I meant using it with Mage Slayer so you can take Mage Slayer without tanking your caster level.  It is pretty expensive, at two feats, but spellcasters are always dangerous.  The only other feats I see you might want are Extend and Quicken Spell.  (Extend Spell is very good for a wide variety of different purposes, starting with basic 1 h/l and 10 m/l buffs and ending with stuff like extended wraithstrike.)  I would strongly encourage you not to drop Stand Still: tripping is not a reliable means of preventing enemies from moving at high levels.  I think your off-turn damage problem is soluble.  My only final comment on feats is, if you can make room, a spiked chain is really quite a bit superior to a guisarme.  A spiked chain can disarm as well as trip, and while disarming isn't as useful as tripping in general, when it comes up it can be very strong, and the ability to keep enemies in 5' (or 10' if you're enlarged) while still dealing full damage, tripping, and disarming is tactically very useful.

I agree you generally shouldn't be casting damaging spells in combat.  That said, there's an important exception: with spell storing on your primary weapon, you can load it with a damage spell, and then trigger it after hitting with an attack (or martial strike).  The spell also benefits from JPM's empowering strike, if and when you make it that far.  As for banned schools, the best reason not to ban enchantment is heroism.  I'm not sure if that's more compelling than what illusion (mirror image and its greater version, bladeweave, and the various invisibility spells) or necromancy (false life, vampiric touch, curse of impending blades).

Offline Daebu

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Re: Warblade/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 12:02:26 PM »
Iainuki has given the analysis on your maneuvers that I largely would've done. Basically you need to fit your maneuvers around your schtick:

In one case for example, I made a Bardblade with a level of barb for pounce. As a result, most of my maneuvers were boosts (Dancing Mongoose) or counters (Moment of the X) with the occasional charge synergy item (Battle Leader Line).

In your case, you want to be a tripper. You need a good selection of damaging standard action strikes, because you may need to re-position on your move action. A solid source of some passive damage increases would be good too. His suggestions largely fit the bill. Both Divine Surges, Tactics of the Wolf, etc.

Your initial maneuvers also need to be chosen carefully. You only have access to DM, WR, IH, and TC for those precious few Warblade levels. So any of the  nice low-level stuff needs to be grabbed at that point. I see Iainuki has chosen TC maneuvers, and I am a huge proponent of Sudden Leap (LOVE IT) and Hunter's sense, but TC doesn't get you Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics. My List would look something like:

Warblade1: Sudden Leap, Hunter's Sense(st), Moment of a Perfect Mind, Steel Wind (tbt)
Warblade2: Leading the Attack
Warblade3: Mountain Hammer
Warblade4: Steel Wind-->Wall of Blades, Tactics of the Wolf(st)
Warblade5: White Raven Tactics

With this you have your WRT, and are set up for IHS with a feat as well. You also have Leading the Attack and Mountain Hammer as your strikes, which are solid enough.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:03:41 PM by Daebu »