Author Topic: How Ridiculous a Race is This?  (Read 9214 times)

Offline kevin video

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How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« on: December 10, 2013, 10:25:15 PM »
So, this is a 3PP race from the Dark Bestiary from Mongoose Publishing. Check out the LA on this thing. I can't possibly be reading this right. I'm really hoping I'm just confused due to lack of sleep. Or maybe I am, and this may very well be the absolute perfect race for Gestalt. The race is called the Shinn Elf. They are psionic star elves.

Shinn Traits: Shinn elf characters share all of a high elf’s racial traits, except as follows:
–2 Strength, –4 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +4 Charisma. These replace a high elves’ ability modifiers. Shinn elves are among the smartest beings in existence; their minds, presence and willpower far mightier than those of any other humanoid. However, their bodies are so frail and delicate they are almost ethereal.
Darkvision out to 60 feet. This trait replaces a high elf’s low-light vision.
Special Attacks: Ethereal jaunt (at-will, CL x2), mind blank (constant), psi-like abilities (CL x2; all psion powers levels 1-9).
(click to show/hide)
Spell resistance equal to 11 + character level.
Immunity to all mind-affecting spells and effects, except those coming from a psionic source. The minds of shinn elves are too evolved to be affected by lesser powers.
Telepathy (Su): All shinn elves may communicate telepathically with any intelligent creature within 100 feet.
Weapon Proficiency: Shinn elves gain no racial proficiencies with any weapon. This trait replaces a high elf’s automatic weapon proficiencies.
Automatic languages: Draconic, Elven. Bonus languages: Any.
Favoured class: Sorcerer. This replaces a high elf’s favoured character class.
Level Adjustment: +1, plus an additional +1 per class level.
Challenge Rating: Shinn elves with Non-Player Character class levels have a Challenge Rating equal to their character level +1. Shinn elves with Player Character class levels have a Challenge Rating equal to 1½ times their Character Level +1.

So, look at that LA. It's an automatic +1, which is fine, but then it's another +1 PER class level? So, if you're a 20th level psychic warrior, then you're also +21 LA? Seriously? That's beyond unplayable.
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Offline ketaro

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2013, 10:32:51 PM »
Don't mind me, just spending the entire game buying off my level adjustment  :whistle

Offline kevin video

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2013, 10:46:54 PM »
I'm curious how this would work for Pathfinder as they don't have LA at all.
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Offline brujon

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2013, 10:47:18 PM »
It's not THAT unplayable...

1->2 you need 3rd level experience to level up. 2->3, you need 5th level experience, then 8th level...

It's doable up to a certain point if only because you get all these spells. And i'm i reading it right? The text says all psion powers levels 1-9, but then the spoiler details a bunch of spells. So he gets all those spells AND psion powers 1-9? If so, then it may well be worth it to suck it up, because you're basically going to be a gestalt wizard/psion.

I'm not saying the race isn't badly design, it's VERY poorly designed, and the designer was probably drunk or isn't old enough to drink yet.
"All the pride and pleasure of the world, mirrored in the dull consciousness of a fool, are poor indeed compared with the imagination of Cervantes writing his Don Quixote in a miserable prison" - Schopenhauer, Aphorisms: The Wisdom of Life

Offline kevin video

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2013, 11:06:50 PM »
It's not THAT unplayable...

1->2 you need 3rd level experience to level up. 2->3, you need 5th level experience, then 8th level...

It's doable up to a certain point if only because you get all these spells. And i'm i reading it right? The text says all psion powers levels 1-9, but then the spoiler details a bunch of spells. So he gets all those spells AND psion powers 1-9? If so, then it may well be worth it to suck it up, because you're basically going to be a gestalt wizard/psion.

I'm not saying the race isn't badly design, it's VERY poorly designed, and the designer was probably drunk or isn't old enough to drink yet.
I think the psi-like abilities are supposed to be the psion powers, which means it's likely not that well written out. I think the website makes it much easier to read, and is spelled out better.
http://www.purpleduckgames.com/mstshinn-elf
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Offline Garryl

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2013, 11:17:09 PM »
It's not THAT unplayable...

1->2 you need 3rd level experience to level up. 2->3, you need 5th level experience, then 8th level...

It's doable up to a certain point if only because you get all these spells. And i'm i reading it right? The text says all psion powers levels 1-9, but then the spoiler details a bunch of spells. So he gets all those spells AND psion powers 1-9? If so, then it may well be worth it to suck it up, because you're basically going to be a gestalt wizard/psion.

I'm not saying the race isn't badly design, it's VERY poorly designed, and the designer was probably drunk or isn't old enough to drink yet.
I think the psi-like abilities are supposed to be the psion powers, which means it's likely not that well written out. I think the website makes it much easier to read, and is spelled out better.
http://www.purpleduckgames.com/mstshinn-elf

Psionic abilities before psionics as a subsystem were released in XPH (and in 3.0, before the Psionics Handbook) were just SLAs by another name. Take a look at the Aboleth, Mind Flayer, and a couple other creatures in the MM.

Offline kevin video

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2013, 11:28:24 PM »
It's not THAT unplayable...

1->2 you need 3rd level experience to level up. 2->3, you need 5th level experience, then 8th level...

It's doable up to a certain point if only because you get all these spells. And i'm i reading it right? The text says all psion powers levels 1-9, but then the spoiler details a bunch of spells. So he gets all those spells AND psion powers 1-9? If so, then it may well be worth it to suck it up, because you're basically going to be a gestalt wizard/psion.

I'm not saying the race isn't badly design, it's VERY poorly designed, and the designer was probably drunk or isn't old enough to drink yet.
I think the psi-like abilities are supposed to be the psion powers, which means it's likely not that well written out. I think the website makes it much easier to read, and is spelled out better.
http://www.purpleduckgames.com/mstshinn-elf

Psionic abilities before psionics as a subsystem were released in XPH (and in 3.0, before the Psionics Handbook) were just SLAs by another name. Take a look at the Aboleth, Mind Flayer, and a couple other creatures in the MM.
Okay...  :???
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Offline Maat Mons

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 11:39:14 PM »
Wow, a racial feature screwier than aelfborn's -1 wisdom per 2 character levels. 

Offline kevin video

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 11:43:15 PM »
Wow, a racial feature screwier than aelfborn's -1 wisdom per 2 character levels.
I hadn't even heard of that race before. How would you not go into a coma by 20th level? Just put all available points into Wisdom?
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Offline linklord231

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 12:50:47 AM »
I was trying to figure out why in the world they thought it would be a good idea to give out 9th level SLAs at 9th class level, til I read that stupid Level Adjustment line.  If it just scaled normally (9th level SLAs at ECL 18, no x2 CL), it might be worth a flat +2 LA.  If you took off the permanent Mind Blank.  And put a reasonable limit on how many times per day their SLAs are usable, because it doesn't look like it has one right now. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline kevin video

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 12:55:04 AM »
I was trying to figure out why in the world they thought it would be a good idea to give out 9th level SLAs at 9th class level, til I read that stupid Level Adjustment line.  If it just scaled normally (9th level SLAs at ECL 18, no x2 CL), it might be worth a flat +2 LA.  If you took off the permanent Mind Blank.  And put a reasonable limit on how many times per day their SLAs are usable, because it doesn't look like it has one right now.
It's kind of limited times per day, but not by much.
A shinn elf may use a total number of psionic abilities per day equal to his character level, except for 0 level psionic abilities, which may be used at will by all shinn elves with a Charisma score of 10 or higher.
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Offline SolEiji

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 01:08:14 AM »
Reading this race gave me cancer.  It's... it's so bad.

Please tell me what "3PP" is so I can locate them and erase them with titanium rods from orbit.
Mudada.

Offline kevin video

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 01:19:04 AM »
Reading this race gave me cancer.  It's... it's so bad.

Please tell me what "3PP" is so I can locate them and erase them with titanium rods from orbit.
The 3rd Party Publisher is Mongoose Publishing.
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Offline SolEiji

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 01:29:45 AM »
Reading this race gave me cancer.  It's... it's so bad.

Please tell me what "3PP" is so I can locate them and erase them with titanium rods from orbit.
The 3rd Party Publisher is Mongoose Publishing.

*Shudders* I see.

When I lay out better designed races with no balance testing off-the-cuff in my sleep than people who get published in books, I wonder if there is any justice in the world.
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Offline Tempest

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2013, 05:42:46 AM »
That race reads like a novice RPer's power fantasy. I don't believe I've ever seen something more terrible than that outside of homebrews.

Offline Keldar

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2013, 06:48:00 AM »
Oh gods!  What if it took levels in Lightning Warrior and Obtain Familiar!?!!

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2013, 02:54:00 PM »
So, you gotta watch the hitpoints, and Cha = 19
1 class level + 1 LA, gets all level 1 psi powers
... goes to ...
8 class levels + 8 LA, gets all level 8 psi powers
with Mind Blank and Immune to Will Mind Magic (not psi).

I'd say during level 17 , this is about where a Recharge Psion
build would be with the usual high C.O. tricks to go with it.

At level 18, you get all Psi 9s, and you are stronger than
a Divine Rank 1 Proxy of a deity.  Not sure when the various
SDAs and other demi-god or lesser god abilities surpass.
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Libertad

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2013, 04:06:41 PM »
Mongoose Publishing in the early D20 years had a reputation for minimal editing and playtesting, resulting in pretty screwy game mechanics.  Such as this elf.

Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2013, 04:31:05 PM »
Mongoose Publishing in the early D20 years had a reputation for minimal editing and playtesting, resulting in pretty screwy game mechanics.  Such as this elf.

That doesn't even look playtested. It looks like a Mary Sue that was created by someone who didn't understand how 3.5 worked. That book was published in 2005.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: How Ridiculous a Race is This?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2013, 05:16:22 PM »
MY EYES!!! MY POOR TORTURED EYES!!! I PRAY TO A GOD I DO NOT BELIEVE IN FOR A SWIFT AND MERCIFUL DEATH THAT I KNOW WILL NEVER COME!!!

*ahem*

I will agree that it is poorly written.
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