General Discussion and Sugestions

[Threadnaught]

2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.

Updated the list.

Thanks, though I do have a question.
Did you intentionally miss out the Evolved Template? It isn't one of the things I'm working on.

I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.

Closest thing I can remember to that is the Scouring Construct from MM V.

Nah man, I should've been a little more specific. I'm working on a Class based on a creature that "summons" using it's own body. The fluff for this creature is strange, it's also the reason I'm thinking of doing something about it's Bite. Something I have more of an idea on than any I've been stuck on.

[oslecamo]

If it's a creature that already exists, why don't you just tell us its name?

Also, forgot the Evolved Undead template, added it now.

[Threadnaught]

If it's a creature that already exists, why don't you just tell us its name?

Also, forgot the Evolved Undead template, added it now.

Boneyard. A creature made of other creature's bones, that summons Skeletons, from itself. I'm also thinking Strength Damage for the bone taking. Reach 0 Strength and you're boneless like fried chicken.
Elder Evils made me curious about them, Libris Mortis made me want to build one. It's a weird one.

[Gazzien]

2-4 creatures need removing from the waiting list and 1-2 of those creatures need adding to the index. Oh and there's two new requests for the waiting list.


Gazzien, if you're reading this, Ice Golem needs finishing up.


I need a suggestion for a Grappler that "Summons" creatures using it's own body to create the "Summons", I have an idea, but it's crazy. Though if someone mentions it, I'll just go with it immediately. Also, I may do something weird to the Bite Attack.

Oh dear, and I've had the changes in mind for a while. I'll go do that.

Edit; apologies for posting in the wrong thread, Osc. 

[oslecamo]

Buffed up the multi-headed creature, now gains extra heads at every level and strange skills at every level after 4th.

[oslecamo]

Right, this is something that has been brought up over the years: undead monster classes class skills (or lack thereoff).

It's my opinion that undead traits are just too strong that they demand a penalty, thus weak Bab and only one good save. But those are hardly drawbacks when undeads are immune to most things that demand saves and more often than not have very dangerous natural weapons and/or touch attacks. Thus, no class skills. Also, they're undeads, their brains are long rotten if they have them at all.

Still, I keep getting people complaining that undeads should have plenty of class skills, just like everybody else that isn't immune to crits and over half of the bad effects of the game. It seems to be an overwhelming opinion. I may just cave in to peer pressure. Or it may be random noise. Only one way to find out!

So, who around here is for/against adding class skills to the undead monster classes?

[Raineh Daze]

If by 'support wizards on steroids' you mean 'translated the FR magical heyday into a class', and therefore me... *

Yes, I think undead should at least get spot and listen as class skills. They have crappy skillpoints and crappy BAB, at least being able to use those skills normally is not going to wreck a game. With the ability to play an Undead 20, it is necessary that these sort of things are included. Otherwise, you end up with a character that's a combat monster--but utterly useless outside of a fight. In other words, you build an optimised T5 character, or a T4. And that isn't what your homebrew seems to push for. :/

*And I repeat: an Arcanist should not exist in any modern setting. It is a FR-exclusive concept, and even then takes place in a time period before games are ever set. Yes, it is broken; this is why Karsus could hijack a Greater God with no drawbacks if he had picked anyone other than Mystryl. But this is a fluff-specific class and, if you're playing a game set in Netheril, is exactly what you expect. Powerful spellcasters rule city states with absolute power, anything can be done if you try hard enough, and the empire's only enemy are abominations that sap the very life from their lands.

[Leviathan]

Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.

[Raineh Daze]

Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.

It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.

More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.

[ketaro]

If you MUST be obliged (forced) to add class skills to undead, I agree that they wouldn't need anything beyond Spot & Listen.

I would not be for rewriting the undead type's bonuses. Why shouldn't an undead creature be immune to save or dies? Because there's nothing to kill!

[Leviathan]

Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.

It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.

More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.

To my knowledge, no non-template undead class has 20 levels; of those if FireInTheSky's tables, only five of them have more than 10 levels. By "capstone", I meant "something toward the end of a class to reward taking several levels in the same class" (instead of multiclassing), not "something you get at 20th level".


I think that undead should get their full immunities no later than other classes could accomplish the same thing (typically with spells). For example, any undead should be immune to mind-affecting by level 15, when a wizard could cast mind blank.

[Raineh Daze]

Undead immunities are mostly useful in combat. Skills, on the other hand, are mostly useful out of combat. Without spells (or similarly broad abilities), the main way for an undead character to be useful outside of combat is with skills.

Instead of compensating for the immunities in an unrelated area where undead are already somewhat weak, I suggest that you reduce the immunities to a level you are more comfortable with. For example, some of the immunities might be replaced with a bonus to saves (or for critical hits, replaced with some level of fortification). If you do this, you should give players a way to get the full immunities: as class capstones, through feats, or even automatically with hit die.

It probably shouldn't take a full 20 levels to get full undead immunities. Making the racial traits HD based, yes; suggesting it take the whole class to get? Not so good.

More like the way incorporeality works for ghosts than a Tarrasque's regeneration, I guess.

To my knowledge, no non-template undead class has 20 levels; of those if FireInTheSky's tables, only five of them have more than 10 levels. By "capstone", I meant "something toward the end of a class to reward taking several levels in the same class" (instead of multiclassing), not "something you get at 20th level".

Most undead seem to be only 1 or 2 HD; most of those that aren't have more stringent requirements (Death Knight, Lich) and can more or less start off with the full suite without issue.

EDIT: More accurately, those undead who have requirements can start off with all immunities without issue. Most of the rest are either only one or two levels and the skill loss is more baffling than substantial; the others get the immunities for a substantial level investment... and skills are hardly going to alter their abilities. Hi, ball of entropic doom!

[Anomander]

I stand by my original opinion.
The issue isn't the progressions. Undead traits should be balanced out with something else entirely.

As long as you don't balance them with something else, I believe that you should stand by your current system and try to balance them out with whatever you can find to do that. Skill points included.

[Rakoa]

I would agree that granting Undead skills is not a bad idea. Undead traits are powerful indeed, but having absolutely no skills can be quite crippling to a class. And in some cases, goes completely against the concept of the monster. For example, what self-respecting Vampire is going to play Count Dracula with no ranks in Diplomacy? Granted, this can be augmented to an extent with Blood Charges, but you get the idea.

[Gazzien]

Give undead some skills. Doesn't need to be much, but looking at a class and going "aaaand I have no-where to put skill ranks without paying through the nose" kinda hurts.

Honestly? Just give them spot, listen, maybe craft/profession, and be done with it.

[oslecamo]

People realize that beind undead allows you to pick up infinite bonus to spot and listen with just a feat, right?

Anyway, in D&D you can already pick class skills by spending a feat, so I guess I could make a bundle like that

Grave Memories
Pre-requisite: One level in any one undead monster class
Benefit: You gain Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge(Int), Profession(Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str) as class skills. They only count as class skills for that undead class. You can only pick up to one kind of Craft, Knowledge and Profession skill to gain as class skills this way.

Nope, no spot or listen, because most other classes don't gain them, so I don't see why corpses whitout actual eyes or ears should get easy acess to it. And again, Lifesense.

On other news:
-Mummy lacked any actual ability besides undead traits at first level, now gains Lesser Mummy Rot.
-Buffed up the Nightwalker's chilling touch and Darkness Skin a bit.
-Added class skills to the construct classes that lacked them.

[Raineh Daze]

No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.

That feat doesn't solve the problem. Two words: Evolved Undead (or Vampire -> Vampire Lord). Plus you don't retroactively gain skillpoints, so you'd better enter later undead classes on a multiple of three! Death Knights, too, or Ghosts... or anything that basically assumes you can enter it on any level you don't get a feat.

And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?

[Stratovarius]

As a more concrete example, take a Bard 6 or Dread Necromancer 6 (Both Tier 3 classes) against a Bloodhulk 6. Which is stronger and more capable? In combat, it's going to depend a fair bit on precise optimization, but out of combat, both the Bard and DN are far more useful than the Bloodhulk, between access to spells and skills. The Bloodhulk, well, he's really good at lifting heavy objects, so if you're building a fortress he's very useful. But that's rather specific. Giving him a few skills means he can do a couple of things out of combat, or at least not be at perpetual risk of ambush.

Bluntly, the biggest drawback for being undead is not having spells. And Undead only have +1/2 BAB, so they aren't brilliant at hitting lots in combat either (excluding magic items, etc.). A good benchmark of melee combat effectiveness is the Warblade or Crusader, so unless the undead creature is running roughly even with them, they are probably in need of a boost.

[oslecamo]

No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.

Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.

And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?

Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.

As a more concrete example, take a Bard 6 or Dread Necromancer 6 (Both Tier 3 classes) against a Bloodhulk 6. Which is stronger and more capable? In combat, it's going to depend a fair bit on precise optimization, but out of combat, both the Bard and DN are far more useful than the Bloodhulk, between access to spells and skills. The Bloodhulk, well, he's really good at lifting heavy objects, so if you're building a fortress he's very useful. But that's rather specific. Giving him a few skills means he can do a couple of things out of combat, or at least not be at perpetual risk of ambush.

Bloodhulk class gains a racial bonus to spot and listen checks in case you missed it.

Bluntly, the biggest drawback for being undead is not having spells. And Undead only have +1/2 BAB, so they aren't brilliant at hitting lots in combat either (excluding magic items, etc.). A good benchmark of melee combat effectiveness is the Warblade or Crusader, so unless the undead creature is running roughly even with them, they are probably in need of a boost.

Bloodhulk again, he's gaining Str boosts while Warblade and Crusader... Aren't. And unlike Bab, Str boosts also directly boost your melee damage. Warblade and crusader have maneuvers, bloodhulk has some tricks of his own. Warblade and crusader have armor and weapon proficiencies, bloodhulk has natural armor, extra HP and can grab the proficiencies anyway later on with a dip.

And then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.

I guess that if you can grab undead immunities for free, then yes bloodhulk comes up behind. But by RAW you can't just grab undead immunities for free, and I have no intention of making them free around here either.

[Raineh Daze]

No, that just messes with light levels; that does not negate the existence of cover or allow you to identify everything about your surroundings. If definitely isn't infinite spot or listen bonuses; if I have good darkvision that equals the same thing.

Last time I checked, darkvision doesn't have a "revealing itself and all features" clause. Lifesight is basically the equivalent of mindsight.

You're reading stuff into it that isn't there. Darkvision does have that clause: if it's pitch black, normally I cannot see anything. If I have darkvision, then I can see all the features of something and its surroundings. All that line is saying is that the illumination isn't just a bright light alerting you to the presence of life, it's something you can see by.

And how many good homebrew classes completely lack access to all sensory skills?

Wizard and cleric don't have spot or listen. Anybody ever complained those ones need them as class skills? Many wizard and cleric clones that are extremely popular online don't get those either.

How many good homebrew classes, I said. Things that are, essentially, clones of the most broken classes in the game? Not really.

And then bloodhulk also shruggs off poison, mind-affecting, critical hits. Warblade and crusader... Die to a lucky crit from some random 1st level orc with a waraxe. They grab diseases when they enter the cursed swamp. And then they can't go in the underwater caverns because they need, to, you know, breath.

Bloodhulk dies due to a lucky hit from a 1st level orc with a waraxe, too. If it's not at full health? Well, a first level Bloodhulk has either 22 or 24 HP. So, I roll a 12 for my damage roll. Plus 5 from strength and a two handed weapon. Plus six because it's slashing and it got lucky on the bonus damage. 23 damage already. If you're on full HP, at best you have exactly one HP left.