Author Topic: General Discussion and Sugestions  (Read 205568 times)

Offline Merchant

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2012, 12:52:36 AM »
Sorry. Wrong thread.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 01:05:58 AM by Merchant »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #121 on: September 17, 2012, 11:25:07 AM »
I wonder how difficult it would be to make summary compilations for these classes.  For example, here are all the classes which stack for spellcasting, and these have their own progressions.
Considering there's over 300 of them done so far, it won't be exactly easy.

It would be useful tough, and if someone made the initial compilation effort, I could then keep updating new entries myself.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #122 on: September 17, 2012, 12:22:47 PM »
Well, what kinds of information would other people like summarized?  If I'm going to compile this stuff, I'd rather only make one pass through the classes.

My thoughts are:
~Spellcasting stacking
~Separate casting or martial progression
~Level 1 & final stat boosts

Any others?
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Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2012, 09:46:34 PM »
What about general party roles/archetypes?  For those that can be categorized anyway...

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2012, 06:30:23 PM »
A couple other sugestions
-Total levels of each class.
-Bab, HD and skill points per level.

Offline Daedroth

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2012, 07:18:23 PM »
Yo can use tags "Morph Bark Homebrew Compendium"-style like

[Number]: Number of leves of this class
Example:
Red Dragon [20]

Divine/Arcane/Other Spellcaster : The Class is an actual spellcaster
Example:
Red dragon [Arcane Spellcaster]

Spellcasting Friendly: The Class has this ability:
Quote
If they multiclasses for an arcane/divince class they can count its Half-celestial levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a Half-celestial 3 who took 1 level of sorceror could choose to have CL 4, get 3 2nd level spell slots, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd level spell known and 1 0th level spell known. it wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however. They would get the familiar ability, but half-celestial levels wouldn't count for it.
Example:
Storm Giant [Spellcasting Friendly]

Martial Adept: The class uses ToB Maneuvers
Example:
Nuclear Dragón [Martial Adept]

Tank: The class is good for tanks
Example:
Iron Golem [Tank]


So, we have the following examples
Red Dragon [20] [Arcane Spellcaster] [Tank]
Angel [23] [Divine Spellcaster] [Tank]
Storm Giant [13] [Spellcaster Friendly] [Tank]
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #126 on: September 18, 2012, 07:56:00 PM »
I don't think that's quite as useful as what I was looking for.  My idea is to have easy access to a table of: here's everything with this quality and the variations on it... take a look through.  Yours is more: lemme look at this monster to see what its properties are.
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Offline CDTalmas

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #127 on: September 19, 2012, 12:12:21 PM »
Just out of curiosity... Would these function with Shapechange/Polymorph-type effects and/or spells?  Would a normal humanoid be able to, essentially, replace his character levels with levels of monster up to CL HD?  Or maybe a 1-for-1 HD swap?  I've oft wondered how it would function, if at all.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #128 on: September 19, 2012, 12:18:53 PM »
To be honest I never tought of it. All the monsters around here that have polymorph/shapechange are suposed to work with the "normal" monsters.

If anything, I would say that "swaping levels" would be the way to go, and keep in check that polymorph doesn't grant Su abilities, and neither it or Shapechange grant Special abilities. As for 1-for-1 HD swap, that would be borked with monsters that get excess HD or your typical pimped bard. This is all on the top of my head tough.

Offline CDTalmas

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #129 on: September 19, 2012, 12:54:05 PM »
To be honest I never tought of it. All the monsters around here that have polymorph/shapechange are suposed to work with the "normal" monsters.

If anything, I would say that "swaping levels" would be the way to go, and keep in check that polymorph doesn't grant Su abilities, and neither it or Shapechange grant Special abilities. As for 1-for-1 HD swap, that would be borked with monsters that get excess HD or your typical pimped bard. This is all on the top of my head tough.

That's one of the reasons I was oft so adamant about whether abilities were "Ex, Sp, or Su."  As is, I use many of these monster races as NPCs for the group to fight.  Works out wonders, though I try (key word: try) to avoid the SoD effects.  Having a level 16 character drop that you've had from before class levels kinda pisses people off.

I figure a nice balancing mechanism for the whole "bonus HD from Bard" thing is that they're simply just that:  hit points.  I'm not sure about the intent of the designers, but I don't think they were meant to stack with caster levels or other such "level-based" options.

Plainly put, I like the idea of Polymorph and/or Shapechange transforming one into a monster race class.  I could easily see level substitution working and, to balance things out, replacing all previous abilities with the race class's except the ability to change back to your normal form.  Maybe an HD cap.  Alter Self could still be restricted to humanoids of up to 5 HD (meaning that all race-class abilities that have an HD requirement of 6 or higher are not gained), Polymorph could be limited to 1/2 your CL or HD, whichever is less beneficial (assuming you have both), and Shapechange could simply be up to CL or HD (again, whichever would be less beneficial).  Thoughts?

PS.  And just to clarify, you BECOME the race-class.  No "I keep my spells and can cast them while in the new form" stuffs.  Equipment-wise, well... People will find ways to keep their equipment going with wilding clasps or asking party members to hold them while they change (assuming the equipment isn't wearable in the new form).  Wouldn't function too heavily on that aspect.  Obviously you keep your skills, hit points, feats, ability scores, etc.  You might, however, lose your old race's ability changes (the old +2/-2) and replace it with the bonuses of the race-class.

[Edit]One thing I forgot to mention is that you CAN keep your spells if the creature normally gains access to them... but only up to the level that the creature would gain access to.  A dragon, for example, of 12 HD, would gain access to fourth level spells and below.  You wouldn't lose your previous spells but just don't have access to them temporarily.[/Edit]
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 12:57:24 PM by CDTalmas »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #130 on: September 21, 2012, 12:51:29 PM »
You seem to have pretty tought out, would you mind condensating it in a "fixed" Polymorph and Shapechange spells aimed at working with monster classes? I would then add a link to them in the FAQ.

Offline CDTalmas

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #131 on: September 22, 2012, 01:38:41 PM »
Changes to Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph any Object, and Shapechange in regards to Monster Race Classes:

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level:    Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Personal
Target:    You
Duration:    10 min./level (D)

You change your form into a similar one to your own.  If you are a humanoid, you may change into a different humanoid.  If you are a magical beast, you may change into a different magical beast.  If you are a quadruped, you may only change into other quadrupeds and so on and so forth.  You lose all class levels and racial bonuses/abilities and gain a number of class levels of the new form equal to your HD - 2 or CL - 2, whichever is lower (maximum 5 HD, minimum 1 HD).  You retain your own hit points, alignment, ability scores, skills, feats, and equipment (if the new form is capable of holding it; it melds into your new form otherwise).  You gain the creature's saves, BAB, type (and subtype, if applicable), movement modes and class abilities.  If the new form does not have enough levels to cover the difference (ie, Wizard 5 to Drow 1), you do not gain any other monster levels but you do get the benefits of having up to your limit in HD (you would gain Web Path abilities up to 5 HD if you are a Wizard 7, meaning Deadly Aim for the Assassin Web Path, but not Defense Pierce, which is a 10 HD ability and beyond the scope of the 5 HD cap, even if you are a higher level Wizard).  If the creature would gain ability score bonuses, add those to your character at the appropriate levels/HD.  You lose your race's ability score changes due to temporarily losing your race.

You also lose access to your spellcasting ability, as the Tenser's Transformation spell.  The only exception to this is if the resulting creature has spellcasting ability, you regain access to your own spells up to the maximum level of spells that creature could cast.  Again, a Wizard 7 turning into a Drow 1 and taking the Dark Mage Web Path would gain access up to 3rd level spells but not beyond; the 5 HD cap is still present.  This applies even if the spellcasting is of a different variety (such as Divine spells or Psionic manifestations whille being an Arcane caster).

Changing back from the new creature to your original form is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.  Doing so ends the spell.  Just as the original spell, you may delegate minor attributes of the physical form such as skin and hair color, physique, or even scars or tattoos.  These must fall within the norms for the creature in question.  If you utilize this spell to create a disguise, you gain a +10 circumstance bonus on your disguise check.

You may not utilize this spell to gain access to Prestige Monster Race Class levels (any creature marked with a prerequisite is considered a Prestige Monster Race Class level) nor any templates.  It is highly recommended that you have a stat block crafted and readied before utilizing this spell for the DM's sanity and your own.  The DM may rule that without a stat block already drafted, the spell fails.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.


Polymorph
Transmutation
Level:    Sor/Wiz 4
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Touch
Target:    Willing living creature touched
Duration:    1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw:    None
Spell Resistance:    No

This spell functions as Alter Self with the following exceptions:  Your HD limit raises to 10 and you may change into forms that are different from your own (except for gaseous or incorporeal creatures).  You are still relegated to CL - 2 or HD - 2, whichever is lower.  This spell is only usable on willing targets.  You still may not assume prestige levels nor templates, even if your CL or HD exceed the new creature's.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.


Polymorph Any Object
Transmutation
Level:    Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target:    One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration:    See text
Saving Throw:    Fortitude negates (object); see text
Spell Resistance:    Yes (object)

This spell functions as normal but can also be used to assume the form of a race class.  The target gains class levels equal to CL -2 or HD - 2, whichever is lower (maximum 15 HD).  It otherwise functions as Polymorph, with the duration based upon the difference chart.  Creating a creature out of stone or any other material does not automatically put it under your control, nor is it automatically friendly to you.  Treat it as a newly summoned NPC without a master that will act according to its alignment and/or natural instincts.

Casting this spell a second time causes the first effect to end and the spell to be determined as if you are your normal race and class.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.


Shapechange
Transmutation
Level:    Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components:    V, S, F
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    Personal
Target:    You
Duration:    10 min./level (D)

This spell functions as Polymorph with the following exceptions:  You may now assume gaseous and incorporeal forms and, as a swift action, you may shift between any number of forms as often as you like over the duration of the spell.  Also, your limit is now equal to your CL - 2 or HD - 2, whichever is less (there is no maximum HD).  Also, excess HD can now be covered with prestige classes and/or templates.

Focus:  A clay model of the type (Animal, Magical Beast, etc.) and subtype (Good, Evil, Fire, etc.) of the form to be turned into, mixed with diamond dust worth at least (HD^2 * 50) GP.  You may add more clay and diamond dust to increase the amount of HD available but are still limited as per the spell.  For each race class changed into, you must have an appropriate model.

For all intents and purposes, HD is calculated as character level minus LA and is not affected by any ability that raises or lowers a character's hit dice or level, such as a bard's music or enervation-type effects.

Please, PLEASE review this and critique it before linking to it.  I think I've covered most of the bases but may have forgotten a few key details.  Yes, I did leave out the whole Ex abilities, Sp abilities, and Su abilities from the normal restrictions on the spell.  I believe that when you're trading casting power for raw physical power or other-ability power, you're giving away a lot for some more situational benefits.

[Edit]Put in a small tweak to Shapechange that I'd forgotten.  Namely the prestige classes and templates.[/Edit]

[Edit2]Changed limits to HD/CL - 2 for more power but still balanced.[/Edit2]

[Edit3]Clarified that HD adjustments from sources other than class levels do not affect how strong a creature you can become.[/Edit3]

[Edit4]Modified Alter Self to specify that regaining spells is based on YOUR OWN SPELLS.[/Edit4]

[Edit5]Added a focus with a cost to all spells, though this may change.[/Edit5]

[Edit6]Modified focus descriptions.[/Edit6]
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 01:06:18 PM by CDTalmas »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #132 on: September 22, 2012, 05:33:02 PM »
-I would also change the cap to your HD-2 or CL-2, whichever's lower. Scales somewhat better, and doesn't tempt players to just cheese their CL to the sky. Apply that cap also to shapechange. being able to quickly swap between forms and picking templates is already good enough if you ask me.

-"but can also be used to assume the form of a race class"? Eeerr, pretty much every class around here is a race class already :psyduck

Offline CDTalmas

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #133 on: September 22, 2012, 05:37:58 PM »
-I would also change the cap to your HD-2 or CL-2, whichever's lower. Scales somewhat better, and doesn't tempt players to just cheese their CL to the sky. Apply that cap also to shapechange. being able to quickly swap between forms and picking templates is already good enough if you ask me.

-"but can also be used to assume the form of a race class"? Eeerr, pretty much every class around here is a race class already :psyduck

In regards to the first comment, are you referencing Shapechange or ALL the polymorph spells?  Being at 1/2 CL (read Caster Level) is rather painful for the lower level spells.  Even at 15th level with PAO, you're suffering at 2/3 efficiency.  Even if you stack crazy amounts of CL bonus, you're still limited by your HD (a set amount which cannot be improved by bards).  As for Shapechange, isn't capping at 17-20 HD already pretty hard to bypass?

As for the second comment, PAO can transform wood to stone, metal to dust, creatures to practically any material, etc.  That's what I was referencing.  It also enables you to turn material into creatures out of the MM (aka, non race classes).  Was just clarifying that the spell still exists as normal but that race classes are options now too.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #134 on: September 22, 2012, 07:16:13 PM »
Here's my problem with it being CL 1/2.

Level 4-get 2 monster levels (behind 2 levels)
Level 10-get 5 monster levels (behind 5 levels, stuff like cloudkill hurts badly).
Level 15-get 10 monster levels (behind 5 levels, hmm, good luck if anyone uses something like Blasphemy or Holy Word).

Also your shapechange right now is capped at CL/HD, meaning at level 17  you can basically fully swap your levels for any monster class, and then change as a swift action, and that's simply too damn versatile whitout actually sacrificing any raw power(you stay on the same level).

So yes, even whitout bard shenigans it is bad if you can fully swap your levels for monster levels, which means nobody actually plays a monster when they can play a caster and then cherry pick whatever monster class they want to play today whitout any real sacrifice.

Offline CDTalmas

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2012, 11:48:19 PM »
Here's my problem with it being CL 1/2.

Level 4-get 2 monster levels (behind 2 levels)
Level 10-get 5 monster levels (behind 5 levels, stuff like cloudkill hurts badly).
Level 15-get 10 monster levels (behind 5 levels, hmm, good luck if anyone uses something like Blasphemy or Holy Word).

Also your shapechange right now is capped at CL/HD, meaning at level 17  you can basically fully swap your levels for any monster class, and then change as a swift action, and that's simply too damn versatile whitout actually sacrificing any raw power(you stay on the same level).

So yes, even whitout bard shenigans it is bad if you can fully swap your levels for monster levels, which means nobody actually plays a monster when they can play a caster and then cherry pick whatever monster class they want to play today whitout any real sacrifice.

Alright, but here's the problem that I see with Shapechange:  It's already broken for EXACTLY that reason (but regular monsters instead of monster classes).  And druids especially make good use of it; thank you Natural Spell >:).   At HD -2, you don't make as much use of it as you could... but I am seeing the fall-backs of the previous polymorph spells being so limited.  Should I simply set in the previous caps of 5 HD, 15 HD, and full HD?  I want them to be useful, obviously, and to not fall behind the party in terms of power, but the monster races are upper Tier 2 (practically lower Tier 1) and are rather powerful even at lower levels/HD.  Mayhaps a combo:  Alter Self -- 5 HD cap, full CL.  Polymorph -- 10 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  PAO -- 15 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  Shapechange -- HD cap (at -2), full CL.  All of them are limited by HD -2, except for Alter Self which is already a pretty weak choice in comparison to the others.  You do also lose your casting ability for a good number of creatures... but I think I do like the sound of yours better, now that I've let it sink in a bit.  It grants a bit more power than 1/2 CL and even 3/4 CL by simply putting the cap into place so the spells are useful for combat, utility, and even social situations without going overboard and drunk with power.  And no bard shenanigans to increase the HD cap.  I'll edit above.

Please critique further if there are other issues, grammar or otherwise!

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #136 on: September 23, 2012, 04:38:02 PM »
Alright, but here's the problem that I see with Shapechange:  It's already broken for EXACTLY that reason (but regular monsters instead of monster classes).  And druids especially make good use of it; thank you Natural Spell >:).   At HD -2, you don't make as much use of it as you could...
That's part of the point, nerfing what's possible the most borked spell in the whole of D&D.

but I am seeing the fall-backs of the previous polymorph spells being so limited.  Should I simply set in the previous caps of 5 HD, 15 HD, and full HD?  I want them to be useful, obviously, and to not fall behind the party in terms of power, but the monster races are upper Tier 2 (practically lower Tier 1) and are rather powerful even at lower levels/HD.
Seriously, why do people keep saying that? I can kinda understand when it's a monster that has actual 9th level casting or can copy abilities.

But something like the Wild Hunt? Yes, it hits hard, has some minions and mobility. It still can't hide in personal planes and bind personal armies while dominating your mind like  a basic sorceror can.

Protip:just because it has good combat stats don't put you near the top. Having "lol no" tricks puts you near the top. Having (nearly) all "lol no" tricks puts you in the actual top.

  Mayhaps a combo:  Alter Self -- 5 HD cap, full CL.  Polymorph -- 10 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  PAO -- 15 HD cap (at -2), full CL.  Shapechange -- HD cap (at -2), full CL.  All of them are limited by HD -2, except for Alter Self which is already a pretty weak choice in comparison to the others. 
You can cast it at 3rd level. As you level up it's extra cheap in either spell slots or wands/scrolls. Of course it shouldn't keep up with spells multiple times its level.

Anyway it seems like your latest version indeed keeps it at HD-2, so nevermind that. Seems good as it is.

You do also lose your casting ability for a good number of creatures... but I think I do like the sound of yours better, now that I've let it sink in a bit.  It grants a bit more power than 1/2 CL and even 3/4 CL by simply putting the cap into place so the spells are useful for combat, utility, and even social situations without going overboard and drunk with power.  And no bard shenanigans to increase the HD cap.  I'll edit above.

It seems to still be lacking the bard clarification.

Offline CDTalmas

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #137 on: September 23, 2012, 05:41:44 PM »
Added HD change clarification.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2012, 05:06:17 AM »
A couple  details I was tinkering about the "new" polymorph line:

-Clarify that if you turn into a monster with casting, you use your own spells prepared (or spell slots/known for spontaneous casters). This means turning into monsters doesn't "recharge" your spells neither lets you cherry pick a full new list.
-The new polymorph spells should demand some kind of "focus", one for each "monster build" you want to turn into. For example, drow path of shadows and drow raider would demand two diferent focus. Not too expensive, but expensive enough that you cannot afford to pick from hundreds of forms at any moment. Something along the lines of (monster level) squared x 50 GP.

Offline CDTalmas

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Re: General Discussion and Sugestions
« Reply #139 on: September 25, 2012, 03:04:49 PM »
A couple  details I was tinkering about the "new" polymorph line:

-Clarify that if you turn into a monster with casting, you use your own spells prepared (or spell slots/known for spontaneous casters). This means turning into monsters doesn't "recharge" your spells neither lets you cherry pick a full new list.
-The new polymorph spells should demand some kind of "focus", one for each "monster build" you want to turn into. For example, drow path of shadows and drow raider would demand two diferent focus. Not too expensive, but expensive enough that you cannot afford to pick from hundreds of forms at any moment. Something along the lines of (monster level) squared x 50 GP.

I'm fine with the clarification of spells but the expense option is rather rude... You may as well ask for a new polymorph spell for each form.  You're still limited to one transformation per spell (sans Shapechange which is a special case and/or broken anyways).  The polymorph spells are supposed to be versatile (and yes, I know they have balance issues).