General Discussion and Sugestions

[Versatility_Nut]

Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.

Largely because I'm kinda skimming a lot. I've been feeling rushed lately a lot due to a lot of housework-type things and kinda an overload of forum thread subscriptions. Mostly laundry, which needs done nearly daily due to three people living in this place and towels being gone through at two per day. For some reason, my brother keeps using two dry towels every day. One for normal use, one on the floor.

Improved Monster classes don't get any stat changes for size. That is explained on the FAQ. Plus I would like to point out small core races like halflings don't get any stat extra stat changes.

As mentioned, I was confused due to the whole "multiple size change tables" thing.

Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.

And the three-level battle bus setup? 80 ft. move speed and 40 ft. fly, restricted to 5 ft. above ground and uncapping at 4 HD, at 1st level? Who needs mounts or Cure spells with a literal tank in the party? Just snag some good Construct heals and you're good.

Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.

As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Still a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.

Eh, mass production is kinda overrated. Though a merge mechanic would be somewhat appropriate for Vermin and Oozes, with Vermin forming Hiveminds and Oozes... Just merging. It's Ooze. Constructs could also form amalgams of parts and spirits.

I have to admit I like the way you talk.

An important thing to avoid for Undead is spawn-chaining off of Energy Drain. It's one of the nastiest things that can be done, and is responsible for many a Necromancer getting far too many Undead under their command because the DM was too merciful with the rules.

The growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread.

I have been informed of the correct table, already. Again, confusion was due to the fact that there's a table for Monsters and a table for PCs and I keep forgetting that the insane design choice of having there be two tables for it was made. Because it's stupid, and stupid choices tend not to stick in my head. Which makes understanding politics an unholy pain in the ass, because it's made of at least half stupid decisions.

And as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.

The advantage of choosing the ability score to improve in place of a size boost is certainly nice, as well. Lets you stop at Medium and be nice and safe by bloating Dex or Con. Restricting to physical scores is a Nice Thing for Martials, due to limits to means of having physical scores apply to spellcasting. Meldshapers love the potential for Con bloating, thought, but they're one of the subsystems screwed in DC scaling anyway.

[Nanshork]

Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.

As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project.  That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.

That's why they're segregated.

Edit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes.  It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters.  It's just how this project is structured.

[Versatility_Nut]

Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.

As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project.  That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.

That's why they're segregated.

I can see that being the case. But the idea of keeping actual race picks doesn't seem to be that unusual to me.

Edit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes.  It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters.  It's just how this project is structured.

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

---

I just noticed that there's not a Hydra monster class. Some things about the Hydra that are good for streamlining class creation:

1. The HD is always equal to number of heads, while CR for the normal one is one lower than HD.
2. Cryo and Pyro add 2 CR flatly, coming with Energy Immunity to one type and Vulnerability to another, canceling out one Hydra head weakness. They also grant a Breath Weapon.
3. The Fast Healing inherently scales with number of heads.

Some adjustments to the existing mechanics of the monster to better work with a class:

1. Head HP being 6+Con, rather than fraction of total. This is to keep it to one HD per head when making HD slightly independent of heads.
2. Fast Healing needs to be changed from 10+heads to something scaling slower. Maybe Con+HD, instead, to ground it better.
3. Cryo/Pyro breath weapon needs to be altered. 1d4 rounds cooldown for each head is too much AoE power, and the 3d6 damage needs scaling.
4. Each head can use it's bite during a Standard Action attack without restriction. This needs changed. Penalties for extra head attacks, like TWF.

Some things to make it actually a monster class:

1. Base going to 12 heads/Colossal size, whichever hits first, with PRCs built for Hydra use that do not require it to fill remaining pre-Epic progression.
2. Each level(or 2), make a pick from a list. List includes Cryo/Pryo abilities in adjusted form, extra heads, additional/unlock of Fast Healing, etc...
3. +1 Con every one or two levels, replacing the typical Con to NA with the Fast Healing, sheer HP and making reach a massive hazard zone.
4. Start at Small size, get Growth every other level after first. This means that it's Medium at 3rd level, Large at 5th, Huge at 7th and so on.

---

Tempted to work on it now, but it's 1 AM where I'm at, so I need to go to sleep.

[Raineh Daze]

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

There is a Hydra Monster class, with a Cryo/Pyro PrC as well.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1747.0


'''


I pretty much exclusively build my monsters with improved monster classes, primarily because I am running an E6 Game and it makes it easier to keep everything in line with that, but also because it is generally easier to customize and optimize monster classes to help against my somewhat optimized party.

[Versatility_Nut]

There is a Hydra Monster class, with a Cryo/Pyro PrC as well.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1747.0

...I literally searched it right before I posted to be sure it wasn't there. I suppose I'll critique it for mechanics. In it's thread, quoting back to here just as a link to point at it, so people not tracking the Hydra thread will see.

Some critiques.

As in inside this post, as I posted the critique-attemp-thing just before this post.

[Nanshork]

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.

...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters.  I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?

[Raineh Daze]

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.

...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters.  I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?

Well, he asked what's the point for making monster classes if you don't use it for scaling monster enemies. That would be the reason. Doesn't mean it's not usable for the former or whatever.

[Nanshork]

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Because players want to play monsters.

...I said that he uses monster classes for his monsters.  I'm not really sure why you're asking about not doing it?

Well, he asked what's the point for making monster classes if you don't use it for scaling monster enemies. That would be the reason. Doesn't mean it's not usable for the former or whatever.

Oh, in general not Oslecamo specifically.  Got it.

[Threadnaught]

Just got a dozen books and Dragon magazines, including MM2 and 3, and Dragon 343. Gonna see if there's anything to provide inspiration for the Boneyard's bite and/or "summoning".

[oslecamo]

Basic outline seems fine, but you seem to have a series of misunderstandings about how monster classes work around here.

Largely because I'm kinda skimming a lot. I've been feeling rushed lately a lot due to a lot of housework-type things and kinda an overload of forum thread subscriptions. Mostly laundry, which needs done nearly daily due to three people living in this place and towels being gone through at two per day. For some reason, my brother keeps using two dry towels every day. One for normal use, one on the floor.

No biggie, but still the "Read this First" clause is there in the Intro/FAQ thread for a reason.

Construct Monster classes here don't get any size-based extra HP (check the golems/anaxim and whatnot). However seems like I let that detail slip with the animated object base race, and just fixed it. Thank you for pointing it out.

And the three-level battle bus setup? 80 ft. move speed and 40 ft. fly, restricted to 5 ft. above ground and uncapping at 4 HD, at 1st level? Who needs mounts or Cure spells with a literal tank in the party? Just snag some good Construct heals and you're good.

It's a super specialized build that can't do much else. Clumsy maneuverability is clumsy and with 24 HP average lacking actual DR, not exactly that durable either. And each party member throwing repair spells is one less party member attacking enemies.

Improved Monster classes were created from the start as a replacement for the LA system, not something to be used with the LA system.

As opposed to the largely-arbitrarily-segregated Enhanced Monster Classes, which instead replace LA by having an actual playable race version and a class to go with it. That died due to too-harsh restrictions, didn't it?

Enhanced Monster Classes arose out of a large disagreement about Oslecamo's project and so said disagree-er went off to make their own project.  That died mostly due to a lack of participation in the project because most people didn't have issues with Oslecamo's project.

That's why they're segregated.

I can see that being the case. But the idea of keeping actual race picks doesn't seem to be that unusual to me.

The idea, maybe. But the real deal is the extra work. 400+ races worth of work taking in account all the monster classes here.

You mentioned you have real life chores and work to do. So have I. Needing to come up with an original race for every monster here would take a lot of time I could invest in other stuff. In particular when there's a lot less flexibility in what I can put in a base race.

And look at that, my project's the one that's still running and offers a lot more options. Because I don't burn myself out trying to come up with minor extras that don't really offer anything valuable to actual play.

Edit: Also, at least Oslecamo uses his monster classes for monsters and not just PCs and thus all of his monsters that use the classes use the rules for the classes.  It's not two tables, one for PCs and one for Monsters.  It's just how this project is structured.

Thank god for that, exceptions-based mechanics lead to hell for actually keeping track of everything. As for not using monster classes for NPCs/monsters... wut. What's the point of making a class for monsters if you don't use it for actually making monsters of a single sort scale easily?+

Whot?

Still a prc to "smart up" monsters is something I see as viable (at least as viable as prcs for making them physically stronger and whatnot). What I have trouble seeing is a fair way to apply it to mass produced minions.

Eh, mass production is kinda overrated. Though a merge mechanic would be somewhat appropriate for Vermin and Oozes, with Vermin forming Hiveminds and Oozes... Just merging. It's Ooze. Constructs could also form amalgams of parts and spirits.

Well that's an idea.

I have to admit I like the way you talk.

An important thing to avoid for Undead is spawn-chaining off of Energy Drain. It's one of the nastiest things that can be done, and is responsible for many a Necromancer getting far too many Undead under their command because the DM was too merciful with the rules.

That's why the spawn-creating monster classes here have caps on how many you can control around.

The growth table to be used with improved monster classes is in the Introduction/FAQ thread.

I have been informed of the correct table, already. Again, confusion was due to the fact that there's a table for Monsters and a table for PCs and I keep forgetting that the insane design choice of having there be two tables for it was made. Because it's stupid, and stupid choices tend not to stick in my head. Which makes understanding politics an unholy pain in the ass, because it's made of at least half stupid decisions.

The table with stat growths is meant only for advancing monster through HD. It's never been intended for any and every size increase otherwise Enlarge Person would be the ultimate first level buff. Anyway this project is a replacement for usual monster progression so yes it meant replacing a bunch of things.

And as already mentioned size increases greatly improve weapon die damage, and several monster classes grant extra bonus for being bigger than your opponent, the titanic creature particularly. Otherwise yes I agree that being bigger is usually a sucker's bet in 3.X edition since you mostly get easier to hit and even easier to hit with spells. But again what's why I do things like the titanic creature.

The advantage of choosing the ability score to improve in place of a size boost is certainly nice, as well. Lets you stop at Medium and be nice and safe by bloating Dex or Con. Restricting to physical scores is a Nice Thing for Martials, due to limits to means of having physical scores apply to spellcasting. Meldshapers love the potential for Con bloating, thought, but they're one of the subsystems screwed in DC scaling anyway.

Got plenty of people complaining over the years that they didn't want their monster characters to grow, but claiming utility reasons like going inside houses and tight corridors and whatnot. Although something else I did for that was the Deceivingly Innocent Form feat that allows any monster to take a mostly humanoid shape/size.

[Versatility_Nut]

It's a super specialized build that can't do much else. Clumsy maneuverability is clumsy and with 24 HP average lacking actual DR, not exactly that durable either. And each party member throwing repair spells is one less party member attacking enemies.

Flying taxi at level four able to take you up faster than most methods can let you go horizontal is good. Delaying the setup until level five still has it quite potent, and gives access to significant offensive capacity alongside it. Religious Relic for Warforged Domain gives cooldown-based Domain access to repair spells.

Not as broken, but a lot of the stuff is kinda wonky, mechanically.

The idea, maybe. But the real deal is the extra work. 400+ races worth of work taking in account all the monster classes here.

You mentioned you have real life chores and work to do. So have I. Needing to come up with an original race for every monster here would take a lot of time I could invest in other stuff. In particular when there's a lot less flexibility in what I can put in a base race.

And look at that, my project's the one that's still running and offers a lot more options. Because I don't burn myself out trying to come up with minor extras that don't really offer anything valuable to actual play.

"minor extras" means not needing all those Body traits. "nothing valuable to actual play" means actually getting 20 levels in a non-Monster class. It's not actually that complicated, it's just moving the pure racial stuff that forces some weird mechanics into actual races. Like the standard of having the first level of these classes be considerably stronger than normal.

The work would be changing all those existing ones to have it happen, as it's entrenched into the design practices at this point. Which is largely fine, it's that one irremovable RHD is disruptive to certain character choices. Sometimes, you need 20 levels to pull something off.

Whot?

It's a thing I saw in the publicly-accessible basic rules for 4e while looking stuff up for talking about stacking effects onto other abilities. Those rules said D&D was an exceptions-based system. Being an official WotC posting, this is apparently part of how they considered the d20 system to function at the time.

Well that's an idea.

Works better for Vermin and Oozes than others, due to more reasonable setup for function. Vermin have Hiveminds, which are basically impossible to work as a template-class due to weird crunch, and Oozes can literally just flow together, merging in various gel and fluid like fashions.

That's why the spawn-creating monster classes here have caps on how many you can control around.

Says the guy who made a PRC which requires 666 controllable spawn for the third level...

The table with stat growths is meant only for advancing monster through HD. It's never been intended for any and every size increase otherwise Enlarge Person would be the ultimate first level buff. Anyway this project is a replacement for usual monster progression so yes it meant replacing a bunch of things.

So, in other words, the table is for what the size-growths should come after, approximately. Con bonuses and Strength bonuses. Dex penalties are confusing to implement in a class progression, and lack of them does assist in excusing some of the missing value.

Got plenty of people complaining over the years that they didn't want their monster characters to grow, but claiming utility reasons like going inside houses and tight corridors and whatnot. Although something else I did for that was the Deceivingly Innocent Form feat that allows any monster to take a mostly humanoid shape/size.

Lots of creatures have inherent shapeshifting for fitting in with humanoids, largely based on plot categorization. The requirements on Deceivingly Innocent Form are kinda... bad, though. Like, typical PCs won't get away with it, and they are rather weird on top of that. Granted, the retention of Literally All the monster abilities is worth it, but having a prerequisite that precludes being outright Good if you do it just to get that feat is nasty. I mean, depending on the morality system you apply to Alignment, eating creatures after killing them in a morally-neutral or Good way(Good being death of horrible people or defending innocents from being horribly tortured/murdered) can easily be Neutral, so there's that, but most DMs would be questioning it.

There should probably be a Monstrous Morality subsection for stuff like this... Because there's probably quite a few monsters that have effects needing some morally-questionable things, and getting some suggestions on how to handle those things would be nice for DMs who give a shit about the alignment rules in depth.

[Raineh Daze]

I'm not going to answer most of that--since you seem to be insisting that the hundred-plus classes should be stripped down to having a race entry that would need LA to balance out getting any of the abilities in the first place which defeats the point, but...

Says the guy who made a PRC which requires 666 controllable spawn for the third level...

You don't have to control them for Vampire Lord, just make them.

Lots of creatures have inherent shapeshifting for fitting in with humanoids, largely based on plot categorization. The requirements on Deceivingly Innocent Form are kinda... bad, though. Like, typical PCs won't get away with it, and they are rather weird on top of that. Granted, the retention of Literally All the monster abilities is worth it, but having a prerequisite that precludes being outright Good if you do it just to get that feat is nasty. I mean, depending on the morality system you apply to Alignment, eating creatures after killing them in a morally-neutral or Good way(Good being death of horrible people or defending innocents from being horribly tortured/murdered) can easily be Neutral, so there's that, but most DMs would be questioning it.

1) For most monsters you can just go for "I didn't realise it was evil at the time"
2) One action isn't enough to bar you from being good--hell, the only hard rule in the game is you lose paladin abilities (and Saint bonuses) if you do it. After the fact, for Paladin.
3) There exists the concept of redemption.

[ketaro]

I've never seen anyone actually take 20 levels in a single class so even just one level of a monster class isn't ruining any builds.....

Not to mention that generally anyone using these monster classes would more likely be building off of them with a build that synergizes with the monster. It helps too when alot of the monsters also stack their levels for certain progressions (arcane/divine/psionic casting, martial adept, rogues, barbarian, etc etc).

[Threadnaught]

So, I notice that there's not an actual Animated Object monster class, just an Awakened one. And Awakened, itself, lacks a monster class, even though several of the Awaken spells give permanent HD. Some of them just make creatures from scratch. It'd be a great choice for a general monster PRC that isn't an outright template. As for what to do with Awakened, I can come up with the following right away:

3 level class
+4 Int each level
Nonability/below 2 Int prerequisite
d10 HD
3/4 BAB
Strong Fort/Will saves
Legacy Champion style progressing what's already there
4+Int skill ranks

Basically, you get a good chassis and 12 Int with one or two levels of progressing parts of what you already have. Parts being important, selecting a limited number of features to add levels of progression to rather than a whole class.

There are numerous problems here.

1: Awakened is assumed for all Classes based on creatures with less than 3 Intelligence, as otherwise you're either playing as an Animal, or a mindless creature incapable of thinking. Something Players and indeed PCs need to do a lot of. Without the ability to think like a PC (3 Int minimum), a character ceases to be a character and becomes more like an animal companion, or Skeletal Minion.

2: Awaken as a Spell provides 3d6 Intelligence, minimum Intelligence is 3, with a cap of 18. Yours caps at 12 Intelligence.
Since Awaken Construct works the same way as Awaken works when cast on trees for mental stats, each Mindless Construct PC is given PC levels of Intelligence. Awaken Construct and Awaken Undead do not provide HD.

3: As a Spell, Awaken only grants +2HD for Animals, not +3.

Not only is it completely unnecessary, but your Class also fails to perform as well as any of the Awaken Spells.


Osle, I'd like you to edit your first post here so Tortoise, Dire, is in the Animals Spoiler as Dire Tortoise. Just so all the animals are in the same place.

[Versatility_Nut]

I'm not going to answer most of that--since you seem to be insisting that the hundred-plus classes should be stripped down to having a race entry that would need LA to balance out getting any of the abilities in the first place which defeats the point, but...

When I say stripped down race, I'm talking the utterly fundamental stuff. Hydras with two heads, Fast Healing 1 and the head-sundering thing, as an example. Would that need an LA? FH 1 is only good as out-of-combat healing, though it does force specific time keeping on the DM.

You don't have to control them for Vampire Lord, just make them.

But they are all controllable. Well, not all of them directly, but CR-2 mean that they can double their controllable spawn of a CR every two levels. Because CR rules are borked, and have doubling the number of creatures of a CR be equivalent to +2 CR. Which means that a Vampire can have a single CR 2 Spawn at 4th level, two at 6th, four at 8th, 16 at 10th and so on, capping pre-Epic at 256 CR 2 Spawn, which means being Turned from CR 1 creatures due to the added Vampire level.

Sure, a vast horde of CR 2 creatures is impressive-looking, but it takes serious organization-optimization chops to actually get things done with them. This is just pointing out where rules you point at are silly.

I've never seen anyone actually take 20 levels in a single class so even just one level of a monster class isn't ruining any builds.....

Not to mention that generally anyone using these monster classes would more likely be building off of them with a build that synergizes with the monster. It helps too when alot of the monsters also stack their levels for certain progressions (arcane/divine/psionic casting, martial adept, rogues, barbarian, etc etc).

It's messing up builds that flatly need 20 levels of conventional class progression. Yes, being able to substitute certain classes is available, but sometimes you just flat-out need zero LA. For example, Hydra doesn't give any major build progression, due to having Poor BAB and no abilities that satisfy prerequisites. More seriously, the single lost level of Sorcerer casting on Aranea delays every casting PRC, period. And doesn't make up for any of the Gish ones by having better BAB than Sorcerer or Wizard.

That one level delay, by the way, means that it's racial casting leaves always a spell level behind Wizard, no matter what. Unless they pull rapid advancement cheese with going Hybrid/Half Tome Dragon and grab Dragon casting acceleration tricks or something, which would be utterly bullshit and moderately terrifying.

But this is super-high-op concerns, so it's mostly a gripe of not being able to replicate a conventional build in every way save for replacing some levels with Monster classes outside of extremely narrow cases. Most of them are a matter of replacing Martials in BAB progression. Like literally all the Full BAB ones casually replace most Martials in multiclass builds, though that's more a case of the Martials sucking than the monsters being OP.

[Threadnaught]

Look VN, if you want to play a 20 level build that requires conventional Classes, rather than these ones, you can. However, these Classes are fully capable of being made into part of a 20 level build.
You don't get to benefit from these Classes as though playing a Gestalt game, unless you're actually playing Gestalt.

If you want the benefits these Classes provide, make it into part of the build. There are many official Classes with interesting abilities which also ruin 20 level builds, I don't see you complaining about how bad Monk is for an Incantatrix build.

[Versatility_Nut]

Look VN, if you want to play a 20 level build that requires conventional Classes, rather than these ones, you can. However, these Classes are fully capable of being made into part of a 20 level build.
You don't get to benefit from these Classes as though playing a Gestalt game, unless you're actually playing Gestalt.

If you want the benefits these Classes provide, make it into part of the build. There are many official Classes with interesting abilities which also ruin 20 level builds, I don't see you complaining about how bad Monk is for an Incantatrix build.

I know perfectly well, it's that there's a bit of frustration in me about making variants of existing, normal, builds that just swap some of the classes in them for these monster classes.

It's more a case of complaining how bad Aranea is for Arcane Trickster builds, which it seems like a good fit for. Because a lot of these casting-type monsters lose progression and don't gain BAB. Dragons are embarrassingly better than any official Martial or gish-in-can class for gish builds by being 3/4 casting and full BAB. They probably are better than Sorcerers in most cases, simply due to better chassis and actual features.

[ketaro]

These aren't sounding like actual complaints about the monster classes being bad anymore. This is just becoming mere stubbornness to not want to come up with your own builds based around these monsters and instead just complaining that they don't mesh easily into all the pre-made builds others have made that were not created with homebrew material in mind.

You're not actually critiquing this system now are ya? Just complaining that they don't fit into another system seamlessly.

[Versatility_Nut]

These aren't sounding like actual complaints about the monster classes being bad anymore. This is just becoming mere stubbornness to not want to come up with your own builds based around these monsters and instead just complaining that they don't mesh easily into all the pre-made builds others have made that were not created with homebrew material in mind.

My issue with it is that only a small minority fit the rather open mechanics niches for properly working in pre-existing character archetypes. 3/4 BAB and partial casting isn't much to ask for, but it's kinda hard to find with actual Martial abilities. Like, Rakshasa? Level-2 Sorc casting, full BAB. Features are about stealth, enchantment and anti-magic, no Martial advantages.

You're not actually critiquing this system now are ya? Just complaining that they don't fit into another system seamlessly.

The system in question being PRC requirements, not the general game. And it's not so much not doing it seamlessly as much as it is not doing it much at all. I'd be fine if it was extremely clunky about it, but few classes progress Arcane casting and have 3/4 BAB to fill in some caster levels on gish builds. Tome Dragons have 3/4 Wizard casting and full BAB, as an example of an egregious exception/example of just meeting requirements.