Animal Companions... again

[NunoM]

This has been a recurrent problem at my table and it got me wondering if the players are really abusing this or if i'm the one with a problem and being unfair to them.

In the last session, the party was climbing up a 15ft well (of sorts). The exit hole on top was 5ft wide, so the PCs and animal companions had to climb or be pulled up one by one. One of the druids ordered his ape animal companion to climb and wait for him above.
There were already some PCs up, so there were no free 5ft squares available near the hole itself.

I said: "The ape climbs up the shaft easily and, up there, the animal moves to the closest square possible."
That square was 10 ft. away from the hole, already inside of a corridor to a nearby room, which means that anyone who hadn't climbed yet, couldn't see the animal.
Some other PCs climbed up, but the druid in question remained at the bottom of the well.

Suddenly, a bad guy appears 15ft in front of the ape. "Spot" checks all around and initiatives rolled (of course, the druid on the bottom of the hole didn't roll for Spot). Suprise round came and gone, warnings around the party, and on the initiative count of the druid down the shaft he goes and says:
"I order my ape to attack!"
- You order your ape to attack...?  - i ask - You're down a 15ft vertical well, the ape can't see you, you can't see your ape let alone the enemy you want the animal to attack. I can't let you do that. The animal will defend itself if attacked or threatened, but it won't take your orders from your current position. If you climb, so you can at least see the animal, and order it, it will be allowed a partial action.

I could see that many players didn't take my decision happilly and some even mentioned that to me after the session.

(Sorry for the long build-up)
Was this so wrong of a decision?!
As a rule of thumb, my criteria is: if the druid can't see the animal, or vice-versa, no command is possible.

I'm all for giving the players advantages for good gaming and/or wild stunts, but this kind of situations have been repeating themselves (this one was just the most recent example) and they sometimes borderline on abuse, IMO. The druid sistematically plays the animal as smarter than it is and/or as if reading the druid's mind, so i fear that, if i don't restrain it, i end up having another (silent) PC on the table...

[Nunkuruji]

Unless the AC gains 3+ int to have justification for intelligent combat and action, I would make the same call.

[X-Codes]

Same here.  An animal companion is essentially a beefy, slightly customized pet.  It's not an extension of the Druid's will.

[Jackinthegreen]

Unless there's some sort of empathic link between the druid and the AC, or the AC has 3+ int and can thus make intelligent decisions regarding combat, there's no way the druid could have given orders considering that position.  You did exactly what the books say you should have.

[NunoM]

There's no special connection between the druid and the AC, and nothing to increase it's INT above 3.

BTW, Nunkuruji, i think you've been through the scenario i mentioned...

(click to show/hide)

  "Age of Worms" - "Champion's Belt"... The PCs are just entering the Kyuss Sanctuary from the flooded tunnels near the Coenoby. They've beaten the oozes below and are now climbing up the feeding hole.

[Argent Fatalis]

The "Defend" trick under Handle Animal would cover a situation like this where the ape could, in theory, protect others and act on its own accord, due to this statement;

"Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend a specific other character. " - SRD

There shouldn't need to be a command to attack for an animal that is Defending (it even states there is none) - hostile actions against the protected individual should get the Animal Companion to respond automatically as part of the defense. Because a Druid has Link (Ex), he could order the Animal Companion to Defend someone (without really needing to know where they were up above him) and make the subsequent Handle Animal check as a Free Action... in theory, thus getting the ape to act on his initiative. However, he'd need to know combat was occurring above him - which it seems he should be aware of (you said warnings all around the party occurred).

However, if he didn't explicitly state that's what he was doing (using his Link to command his ape as a free action to Defend someone then making the Handle Animal check), and or the ape wasn't being actively threatened or hadn't been previously told to Defend someone, I don't see anything wrong with your ruling.

If he did (which it doesn't sound like he did), then I see no reason why his ape couldn't have acted and attacked on his turn to fight the monster.

On another note, the Attack command doesn't seem to work in this situation if you can't explicitly designate a specific target - Defend works just fine. Attack must have an explicit target if the handler wants the animal to attack that creature out of all the others, otherwise the animal basically just attacks the nearest enemy. If there's only one enemy, Attack works regardless provided there's an "apparent enemy";

"The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able." - SRD

[Nunkuruji]

Looking over this much closer.

Yeah, the AoW encounter for my PCs happened with the same sort of approach.

I assume the druid has taken the Attack Trick x2 for unnatural creatures.

Initiative wise, this is what should happen at best, imho...

The last command by the Druid to the AC was a Handle Animal to climb

Surprise Round: Anyone above who passed their spot gets to act with a standard action, anyone below does not act. Someone who acts on this turn should communicate to those below what is happening above, as you described. At best the AC is defending itself.

Round 1:
On the Druid's turn, without line of sight to AC and friend or foe, he could issue a Guard or "Attack apparent enemies" presuming the AC can hear him. Attacking a specific enemy (or Defend) requires pointing, LoS to AC and target. "Apparent enemies" becomes a judgement call on the part of the DM, but in this encounter, its fairly obvious. (I may have glossed over the "Attack apparent enemies" earlier, as I tend to get wrapped up in the targeting text)

ACs turn
If its initiative was before the Druid, at best it is simply defending itself.
If it does not actually act(attack or total defense?) in the round prior to the druids turn, it has effectively delayed, and can receive and execute an instruction this round, moving its initiative down to the druids.

If his initiative was after the Druid, he would attack the closest enemy to the best of its ability.

[NunoM]

The AC succeeded in the Spot check for the surprise round (DC wasn't hard at all), so the animal defended itself.
In the 1st combat round, the druid acted after the animal.

According to what you're saying, i did act wrong, then. The AC would be allowed a Listen check to hear the druid's command, so it could attack the nearest "apparent enemy" (yes, the AC has 2 tricks to attack unnatural creatures). I must have glanced through the "apparent enemy" part too, and always expected the targetting part.

I'll keep that in mind for tonight's session. Thanks!

[Argent Fatalis]

The AC succeeded in the Spot check for the surprise round (DC wasn't hard at all), so the animal defended itself.
In the 1st combat round, the druid acted after the animal.

According to what you're saying, i did act wrong, then. The AC would be allowed a Listen check to hear the druid's command, so it could attack the nearest "apparent enemy" (yes, the AC has 2 tricks to attack unnatural creatures). I must have glanced through the "apparent enemy" part too, and always expected the targetting part.

I'll keep that in mind for tonight's session. Thanks!

Glad to hear this cleared things up.

The only thing I'd say to keep in mind is that he (the Druid) can make his checks without line of sight, but the Animal Companion needs to be able to hear him - shouted commands should be fairly easy to hear, but just as easily neutralized. The Attack command is essentially "engage" - without regard for specifics - when the handler can't (or doesn't) designate a target by gestures (if you take it as RAW from the SRD). Defend honestly would work better in this scenario, but that's my opinion.

[linklord231]

The only thing I'd say to keep in mind is that he (the Druid) can make his checks without line of sight, but the Animal Companion needs to be able to hear him - shouted commands should be fairly easy to hear, but just as easily neutralized. The Attack command is essentially "engage" - without regard for specifics - when the handler can't (or doesn't) designate a target by gestures (if you take it as RAW from the SRD). Defend honestly would work better in this scenario, but that's my opinion.

Well, presumably the AC knows the people he's been travelling with aren't "apparent enemies."  If the Druid says "Attack!" and the only nearby people are his masters friends and some dude he doesn't know...

[NunoM]

Well, everything was going so smoothly today...

... until the druid tried to send his AC against an opponent neither him nor the animal had line of sight to AND without even issuing a command!

The party entered a 1st room, defeated some bad guys and were looking around. The druid hanged back with his AC near the entrance of the 1st room (using the "Heel" trick), while others scouted ahead through a 10ft wide, 20ft long corridor located (roughly) at the middle of that room. The 20ft long corridor heading out of the 1st room led to a double door, which was already at the edge of sight angle for the druid or his AC.
The druid maintained his position. The double door was opened into a 2nd room and from the back of that room, an evil cleric sent forth his already summoned minions...

After Spot checks for the scouts, initiatives and warnings all around, when it was time for the druid to act, he simply picked up his AC and was getting ready to move it to attack distance of the cleric (BTW, the AC moves 50ft, so a double move was enough to reach the cleric) *and* flanking the minions.

I just HAD to stop him there! First of all, the cleric wasn't even in the druid's line of sight. Second, the last command he issued was "Heel", so the AC would follow him until told otherwise. Third, he didn't tell me he had given ANY new command to the AC, he just picked up the AC's miniature and moved it.
And last, but not least, to get to that particular bad guy, the AC had to cross a 10ft thick "wall" of allies, and another 10ft span of placed minions (causing AoOs from the ones still alive) to finally reach a 10ft space, wide enough for it to stand on. Unless he could see the cleric and directed the animal to attack *that* particular enemy, the animal wouldn't just naturally attack the most distant guy, but rather the first minions in it's path.

(Hard to explain, but i'll try a diagram)


 _! !_
!AC D !     ___##___
!AC  A!____!       E!
!        AA# m      !
!      ___A#  m     !
!     !    |________!
!_____!


AC = Animal Companion (10ft space)
D = Druid
A = Allies
m = minions
E = evil cleric

# Doors

Again, sorry for the long description, but this really got to me. Especially when i noticed the frowns around the table again. It almost seems i like to pick on the guy, but it's nothing like that!

[Argent Fatalis]

Well, presumably the AC knows the people he's been travelling with aren't "apparent enemies."  If the Druid says "Attack!" and the only nearby people are his masters friends and some dude he doesn't know...

I would hope so, but stranger things have happened.

But I will add my commentary regarding the most recent turn of events (as if my opinion really matters that much).

Given the diagram and what you've explained, unless the Druid had some specific line of sight to the enemy Cleric or ability that would grant him awareness of the Cleric's position, you're not in the wrong - additionally, the only other really simple exception I can come up with (which didn't appear to happen) would have been for the Druid to have the Animal Companion Defend a specific ally - one who also happened to be the Cleric's target on the Cleric's turn. The Animal Companion also shouldn't be too thrilled about provoking attacks of opportunity - I'm not saying this warrants more checks, but a Druid's Animal Companion is (at least in most every game I've ever seen) like a close friend; the Druid shouldn't be too happy or too willing either, but that's character dependent.

The "wall" of allies shouldn't be an issue unless they weren't willing to let the animal pass - the minions are far more a concern.

If he just issued the "Attack" command, the Animal Companion should just explore the area until it saw the first hostile it could engage, and then engage them.

As it stands, you were in the right for this based on what I can gather and they just feel like the Druid's being picked on.

[Leviathan]

I agree with Argent Fatalis that you're handling the animal companion right, but I worry that you're not handling your players well. How clear have you been with your players about how and why you made these decisions? Because the druid has tried doing things like this with his animal companion multiple times, it seems that he doesn't understand your rules about how animal companions behave (he's treating it like a character he runs, not like an animal that accompanies his actual character). From his perspective, and the perspective of the other players, you are laying down a series of arbitrary decisions that harm the player and aren't consistent with their expectations about the rules.

If you haven't done so already, you need to explain to your players the guidelines you use to adjudicate the behavior of the animal companion, so they understand that you have some reason to do this other than just picking on the druid.

[Nunkuruji]

I recall how this encounter plays out as well

If the Druids initiative was first, he could issue the command, then the AC acts on its own initiative
If the ACs initiative was first, he would be continuing to Heel until the Druids initiative when he could issue the Attack, and then it could attack and the AC moves down to the Druids initiative

For targets, his options were certainly limited to
Attack Apparent (nearest)
Attack Specific in line of sight to Druid and AC (point to)


Note, there is a limited situation where neither Druid or AC can see an enemy but the AC could pursue. The AC has scent, so within 30 ft, 'attack apparent' could be used make an attempt (around a corner, invisible, etc).


If there's continued friction over the rules, tell him to buy his AC a +2 int cap and either language comprehension item for the AC, or himself a perm speak with animals item.

[Zionpopsickle]

It seems like this is an issue that you really should sit down and talk to the Druid player about at length.  As has been said, it seems like the Druid player is assuming that his animal companion is just another character he is running as opposed to a really smart animal. 

[NunoM]

Yeah, there are a lot of misunderstandings about the rules, both from the players and the DMs sides.

In this campaign we've been taking turns as DMs, and the previous DMs didn't make a big deal out this kind of situations. Also, probably because, prior to my turn as DM, the AC in question didn't have the "Combat Reflexes" feat, which brought up a whole new set of ruling problems...

Anyway, i've been studying the animal tricks and coming up with a set of rules of thumb, that hopefully will make for a better gaming experience for all w/o too much strife.

Here's what i'm thinking.

General:
- If not mounted (like a riding dog), the AC must have a default (semi-)passive stance, as it accompanies the druid while adventuring (ex.: "Heel", "Defend")
- The AC will have the same initiative as the druid, unless the druid has released the AC for a specific task before (ex.: "Guard" or "Defend")

Allies:
- The AC is coming to know the rest of the party as "allies" so it won't engage them, unless told so by the druid.
- Other creatures (NPCs or summons) that attack an enemy targetted by the AC, will be considered an "ally of convenience", so it won't be attacked until directed to do so, explicitly, by the druid (much like a set of different predators that happen to gang up to bring down a big prey).
However, until a stranger actually attacks a specified enemy (thus turning the stranger into an ally) there's a possibility that the AC will lash out AoOs against that creature, if it provokes them, in the meantime.

Tricks (only the relevant ones - and how they influence the AC behavior):
"Attack": The animal attacks an apparent or directed enemy. If directed towards a specific enemy, will will take the shortest route to get to the target. If unable to reach it, it will stop and linger until there's an opening to explore. It will try to avoid AoOs from movement* against itself (self-preservation kicks in). Non-allies (of any kind) will be targets of AoOs from the AC.
"Come": The animal will return to the druid trying to avoid AoOs from movement.
"Defend": The animal will have a ready action to attack anyone who attacks the defended creature. If an opponent moves into it's threatened area, but not towards the defended creature, it will not perform AoOs**. The AC will have it's own initiative roll.
"Down": The animal will disengage, but remain in the area, w/o attacking anyone unless attacked itself.
"Guard": The animal will stay in place, guarding. Non-allies entering it's threatened space will be subject to AoOs**. The AC will have it's own initiative.
"Heel": The animal will remain next to the druid, but not engage (AoOs included) until told so by the druid.

* Other AoOs, such as from "Robilar's Gambit", are over the comprehension limits of the AC.
** I mean: AoOs from the "Combat Reflexes" feat, when the AC is flat-footed. Others will happen normally, for non-allies, when the AC has already acted during the encounter.

[Frogman55]

How would you feel about allowing animals certain behaviors without requiring a trick. For example, man has two war-trained dogs that he orders to attack. Would it be fair for those two dogs to flank their target without requiring that they know a specific trick to do so? After all, don't attacking dogs already tend to work together from opposite sides of a target?

Or is this just opening up a giant can of worms?

[NunoM]

That was discussed in another thread before (EDIT: here). The main consensus there, was that animals would comply to their instincts when directed to attack.

Following that discussion, i requested the players to take a note of the animal's usual tactics (found in the MM).
Small notes like "Wolf: pack hunting", "Ape: aggressive attacker". In these cases, the wolf would definetly take flanking positions, if possible, and the ape would take a more direct approach, regardless of tactics.

[Argent Fatalis]

That was discussed in another thread before (EDIT: here). The main consensus there, was that animals would comply to their instincts when directed to attack.

Following that discussion, i requested the players to take a note of the animal's usual tactics (found in the MM).
Small notes like "Wolf: pack hunting", "Ape: aggressive attacker". In these cases, the wolf would definetly take flanking positions, if possible, and the ape would take a more direct approach, regardless of tactics.

I'd agree to this except for on two exceptions that immediately come to mind (of which were also mentioned, at least in part, in the link).

A combat trained and accustomed animal should reasonably be competent enough to exploit flanking - predators, as a whole I'd almost expect it from naturally. Animals are opportunists, especially predators who are exceptionally cunning and use even the slightest sense of weakness to their advantage. In this, I'd say some are much more talented at than others, aka; the wolf's pack tactics should be instantly recognizable, whereas a group of tigers - typically solitary hunters - shouldn't instantly try and get an opening to flank until they realize that the enemy's distracted.

Animals who aren't strictly predators I'd be more harsh on, for example, the ape. Training would be more up this alley, but that's DM dependent, and it hardly bothers the Druid who can make their Handle Animal checks toward the companion as a free action.

[amike]

Shouldn't the ape have been able to carry the druid up the well?