Grt Shadow Conjuration -> Ethereal Mount, then Etherealness: does it work?

[ksbsnowowl]

An interesting conundrum came up in my game on Monday, and I'm not sure if it would work or not.

My Beguiler Player has Greater Shadow Conjuration and will often use it to cast Phantom Steed, made from shadow stuff.

Last night a foe used Etherealness to try and escape, and so the PC used Grt Shadow Conjuration to create an Ethereal Mount (SpC, Wiz 4, similar to Phantom Steed; in fact, Phantom Steed would have been no different if it had been used), then used Etherealness to move himself and the mount to the Ethereal Plane.

Shadow spells cannot be cast on the ethereal plane, because they can't access the Shadow from which the spells create their effects.  However, the Mount was created on the Material plane, then shifted to the Ethereal plane.  Does that work?  Or can the effects of the Shadow spell not persist on the Ethereal plane?

[Gazzien]

An interesting conundrum came up in my game on Monday, and I'm not sure if it would work or not.

My Beguiler Player has Greater Shadow Conjuration and will often use it to cast Phantom Steed, made from shadow stuff.

Last night a foe used Etherealness to try and escape, and so the PC used Grt Shadow Conjuration to create an Ethereal Mount (SpC, Wiz 4, similar to Phantom Steed; in fact, Phantom Steed would have been no different if it had been used), then used Etherealness to move himself and the mount to the Ethereal Plane.

Shadow spells cannot be cast on the ethereal plane, because they can't access the Shadow from which the spells create their effects.  However, the Mount was created on the Material plane, then shifted to the Ethereal plane.  Does that work?  Or can the effects of the Shadow spell not persist on the Ethereal plane?

Wait, since when do [Shadow] spells not work on the ethereal plane? I've never heard that before...

[ksbsnowowl]

Wait, since when do [Shadow] spells not work on the ethereal plane? I've never heard that before...

Manual of the Planes, page 62, sidebar:

OPTION: WITHOUT THE PLANE OF SHADOW

While the Plane of Shadow has an important place in the Great Wheel, a cosmology you build yourself might not have such a plane. If the Plane of Shadow doesn’t exist, the following issues need to be addressed:
•   The following illusions with the shadow descriptor don’t work:  greater shadow conjuration, greater shadow evocation, project image, shades, shadow fade, shadow cache, shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, shadow walk.
•   Spells that affect the Plane of Shadow but have other effects simply lose the shadow-related effects. These spells include dimensional anchor, shadow blast, and zone of respite.
•   Monsters native to the Plane of Shadow either don’t exist (and thus can’t be summoned with summon monster spells) or are natives of other planes. The infernal and abyssal Outer Planes and the Negative Energy Plane would be excellent homes for various natives of the Plane of Shadow. Monsters that use shadow-related abilities may still exist, but their shadow abilities are either nonfunctional or rely upon other planes and energies.

Within the D&D cosmology, the Plane of Shadow connects only with the Astral Plane and the Material Plane. The above limitations apply when a traveler is on an Inner Plane or an Outer Plane.

Also, Manual of the Planes, p. 46-47:

From the Plane of Shadow to the Ethereal Plane, or Vice Versa: In the D&D cosmology, these two planes are coexistent with the Material Plane, but not with each other. Spells and effects that use the Plane of Shadow do not function on the Ethereal Plane, and spells and spell-like effects that use the Ethereal Plane don’t work on the Plane of Shadow. Travelers can’t go directly from one plane to another.

MotP, p 61:

The Plane of Shadow does not connect to the Ethereal Plane. Spells and spell-like abilities that use or access the Ethereal Plane do not function in the Plane of Shadow. The Plane of Shadow is coexistent with the Astral Plane, so various spells and portals make it possible to move between the two planes.

PHB/SRD:

Shadow:  A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Manual of the Planes, p. 59:

Spells often draw forth parts of the Plane of Shadow, in particular for illusions that have the shadow descriptor. The Plane of Shadow is a monochromatic world, but shadow material pulled from it can be of any color. The spellcaster usually colors, shapes, and shades the shadow-stuff to make it more convincing. A shadow evocation that produces a fireball, for example, appears like any other fireball to those fooled by the illusion.

Shadow spells draw on the plane of shadow itself.  You can't access the plane of shadow from the ethereal plane, ergo, (Shadow) spells can't be cast on the ethereal plane.

[Nunkuruji]

I had to deal with this just a short while ago in Age of Worms, but even its paragraph on the matter doesn't have this answered.

Which actually that posed an interesting conjecture on the nature of demiplanes created via Genesis vs. Psionic Genesis...

Anyways, to this question,

My personal interpretation is that the shadowstuff is drawn forth from the shadow plane, and that energy is now 'here' (material plane or otherwise linked plane) on the completion of the spell (formed into a conjuration if so chosen). Thus, the connection to the plane of shadow is only necessary at the time of casting, and the resultant energy holds it together for its duration. So, it would be legit for that energy to then be made ethereal if one wished.

Another interpretation could be that the energy is continuously channeled from the source shadow plane, in which case if that link is broken, it goes away.

Creation

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

There *might* be some 2nd party text on this on planewalker?

[Gazzien]

I... well then. Wow. Okay.

[Arz]

Slightly divergent, does heighten spell raise the mimic spell level of a shadow conjuration? My brain seems to be looping.

[ksbsnowowl]

Slightly divergent, does heighten spell raise the mimic spell level of a shadow conjuration? My brain seems to be looping.

No.  It would raise the DC's though.

[IngloriousBastard]

I would consider the ramifications of using this optional rule.  If someone is already using Greater Shadow Conjuration then you have to assume that the Plane of Shadows exists or you just ignore the rule and state that it works anyway.  If you now state that the character can no longer use some core Beguiler spells with a [Shadow] descriptor you really limited their options, and that is something that should have been discussed up front before the character was made so the player had the option to make a different build. 

[ksbsnowowl]

I would consider the ramifications of using this optional rule.  If someone is already using Greater Shadow Conjuration then you have to assume that the Plane of Shadows exists or you just ignore the rule and state that it works anyway.  If you now state that the character can no longer use some core Beguiler spells with a [Shadow] descriptor you really limited their options, and that is something that should have been discussed up front before the character was made so the player had the option to make a different build.

You misunderstand the point of my posting the optional rule sidebar.  The side bar deals with the option rule of not having a plane of shadow at all.  However, those rules are NOT an optional rule on any planes other than the Prime Material, Astral, and Shadow planes in the Great Wheel cosmology; all the other planes DO NOT have access to shadow stuff and shadow spells.

I'm not changing a thing; I'm running the game as it has always been, the Prime Material has all three transitive planes (actually, my homebrew cosmology is more forgiving than standard D&D; each of the Nine Worlds has one, two, or all three of the transitive planes; in standard D&D, each of the inner and outer planes only has the Astral, and Shadow spells can't be used on any of them.)