Author Topic: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage  (Read 18387 times)

Offline spacemonkey555

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 10:33:05 AM »
I'm actually kind of on the fence on this one. Let me give an example that is pretty similar:

I make a Permanent (Invisible spell) Wall of Fire, then years later while I'm on another plane of existence, some hapless fool blunders into it. I happen to be Invisible at the time. Is my Invisibility canceled? I think clearly in this case it is not, but fundamentally this isn't actually very different at all than with the Cloudkill situation described. Does intent actually factor into this at all? If not, then the Cloudkill shouldn't make him become visible either. It's simpler to not factor intent. If you do, it makes things a LOT messier at the table. So I'm kind of leaning towards the invisibility not being canceled... but I still think it feels dirty. :P

It's not dirty at all, it's 100% legit. You can't perceive a person as a foe if you aren't aware of them.
Now wait just a minute... So you're saying you can stab your friend and remain invisible?

Edit: Another line from the spell. Friend/foe doesn't matter.
Quote
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.

So it is entirely predicated on whether something is a direct attack or not. The spell says you can trigger traps remotely (think roadside bomb with a detonator). If that doesn't break invisibility, I think it's pretty clear that someone walking into a Cloudkill wouldn't either. Neither would the spell expanding after cast to encompass them.

So yeah, I agree that the Cloudkill example given in the OP would not break invisibility (ignoring the part about not being able to summon it mid-air).

Stabbing a friend invokes the first clause, it's attacking a creature. It's well understood. It's spells that require friend or foe determination, and that specify that a spell is an attack if it includes a foe in its effect. It doesn't say original area, or starting area, or area of effect when the spell is cast, or any other temporal limitation, nor does it specify that the spell has to be hamful, which is pretty absurd.

Offline Frogman55

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 10:38:35 AM »
I love ambiguous rules.

It seems clear that if bystanders are in the original effect, then it counts as an attack and invisibility is hosed. But if no one is truly in the effect, the rules are a bit fuzzier.

This is why I like ambiguous stuff - it lets me delve into the flavor of the rule and rely on that, rather than text. So... why does invisibility cancel when you make an attack? I know the rules say it ends, and I know the rule is really intended to simply limit the utility of invisibility, but what un-real-world function is the rule expressing? It seems satisfying to me to think that the invisibility spell rests on the mindset of its target. If the target is acting in a hostile manner, it cannot function. Summoning guards to do your fighting doesn't really require direct aggression towards an enemy, nor does a permanent invisible wall of fire five years later. But a cloudkill spell that will certainly envelop the enemy probably is an act of direct aggression, even though the damage occurs on the next round.

If I was GMing, I'd probably ask how inevitable the cloudkill descent onto the enemy is. Does he have a reasonable chance of escaping the effects? If he is capable of simply walking out from under its effects, then I'd rule that this doesn't cancel the invisibility. If he has no way to escape, and the caster is certain that it will do damage, then I'd rule the invisibility was cancelled.

Mostly unsupported by the rules (you could probably rule that an inescapable cloudkill is a direct attack even if it doesn't happen on the first round), but given that the situation seems unsupported by the rules then I feel like some rational rule 0 analysis is perfectly fair.

Offline linklord231

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 12:57:00 PM »
I'm actually kind of on the fence on this one. Let me give an example that is pretty similar:

I make a Permanent (Invisible spell) Wall of Fire, then years later while I'm on another plane of existence, some hapless fool blunders into it. I happen to be Invisible at the time. Is my Invisibility canceled? I think clearly in this case it is not, but fundamentally this isn't actually very different at all than with the Cloudkill situation described. Does intent actually factor into this at all? If not, then the Cloudkill shouldn't make him become visible either. It's simpler to not factor intent. If you do, it makes things a LOT messier at the table. So I'm kind of leaning towards the invisibility not being canceled... but I still think it feels dirty. :P

It's not dirty at all, it's 100% legit. You can't perceive a person as a foe if you aren't aware of them.
Now wait just a minute... So you're saying you can stab your friend and remain invisible?

Edit: Another line from the spell. Friend/foe doesn't matter.
Quote
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.

So it is entirely predicated on whether something is a direct attack or not. The spell says you can trigger traps remotely (think roadside bomb with a detonator). If that doesn't break invisibility, I think it's pretty clear that someone walking into a Cloudkill wouldn't either. Neither would the spell expanding after cast to encompass them.

So yeah, I agree that the Cloudkill example given in the OP would not break invisibility (ignoring the part about not being able to summon it mid-air).

Stabbing a friend invokes the first clause, it's attacking a creature. It's well understood. It's spells that require friend or foe determination, and that specify that a spell is an attack if it includes a foe in its effect. It doesn't say original area, or starting area, or area of effect when the spell is cast, or any other temporal limitation, nor does it specify that the spell has to be hamful, which is pretty absurd.


If you're not casting the spell directly on an enemy, then it's not a direct attack (this seems like it should be a truism). If it's not a direct attack, it must be an indirect attack, or a non-attack. Neither indirect attacks nor non-attacks break invisibility.
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Offline taltamir

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2014, 04:21:42 PM »
I'm actually kind of on the fence on this one. Let me give an example that is pretty similar:

I make a Permanent (Invisible spell) Wall of Fire, then years later while I'm on another plane of existence, some hapless fool blunders into it. I happen to be Invisible at the time. Is my Invisibility canceled? I think clearly in this case it is not, but fundamentally this isn't actually very different at all than with the Cloudkill situation described. Does intent actually factor into this at all? If not, then the Cloudkill shouldn't make him become visible either. It's simpler to not factor intent. If you do, it makes things a LOT messier at the table. So I'm kind of leaning towards the invisibility not being canceled... but I still think it feels dirty. :P

it seems intent does matter
Quote
an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.)
Your own perceptions of who is a foe matters. This also can open the door for some auto hypnosis or getting mind controlled by an ally to use offensive magics without the intent to harm the actual target.

As for the wall of fire you permanencied. You might not have been aware of the person who walked through it 5 years ago, but you intended to harm them when they do (its why you cast wall of fire)

... I am honestly not sure anymore where i stand on this issue
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 04:24:53 PM by taltamir »
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Offline spacemonkey555

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2014, 05:53:57 PM »
If you're not casting the spell directly on an enemy, then it's not a direct attack (this seems like it should be a truism). If it's not a direct attack, it must be an indirect attack, or a non-attack. Neither indirect attacks nor non-attacks break invisibility.

If you get ridiculous with indirect, you could claim a spell that doesn't have to travel in a straight line is ok, because its "indirect". That's the problem here, one word with 3 meanings that could all apply. Given indirect path, indirect chronology, or indirect methodology, I'm thinking the author meant methodology, as that's the examples given.

Offline taltamir

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2014, 07:41:19 PM »
If you get ridiculous with indirect, you could claim a spell that doesn't have to travel in a straight line is ok, because its "indirect". That's the problem here, one word with 3 meanings that could all apply. Given indirect path, indirect chronology, or indirect methodology, I'm thinking the author meant methodology, as that's the examples given.

Isn't magic missile known to travel in non straight lines to reach the target?
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2014, 10:45:32 PM »
We actually just went through this in our group.
Quote from: SRD
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell (hey look, a defining clause), an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe (Cloudkill does neither when cast in empty space. Strike 1). Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. (Like casting cloudkill in an empty square? Strike 2.) Causing harm indirectly is not an attack.(We can mince words all day about causing harm directly or indirectly, but as that's entirely subjective and CANNOT be actually defined in the certain terms you are looking for, I'm staying out of it.) Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack This is a big one. Both spells create a dangerous spell effect, directed in part by the caster. If directing a summoned monster to rip someone's face off doesn't end invisibility, then the argument of "intent of the caster" doesn't hold up. In fact, cloudkill isn't directed beyond the initial target location.), cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge (While not a spell, this is a far more direct example of expressing intent to kill.), remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth.

Cloudkill fits none of the criteria for removing invisibility, except a completely ambiguous (and frankly unresolvable with this crowd) statement about direct vs indirect damage. As the rest of the spell gives examples to the contrary though, our group ruled that delayed effects are not attacks. This means pushing a boulder off a cliff on someone. This also means casting a cloudkill with no targets inside and letting it roll across the street.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2014, 10:46:06 PM »
What this guy is trying won't work. Either the cloudkill floats and doesn't descend, or he's trying to conjure it into a space that can't support its weight (because it falls), so the spell fails.
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Offline taltamir

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2014, 01:19:14 PM »
What this guy is trying won't work. Either the cloudkill floats and doesn't descend, or he's trying to conjure it into a space that can't support its weight (because it falls), so the spell fails.

I wasn't aware cloudkill couldn't be conjured high up mid air on something that can't support its weight. I looked at both it and fog cloud and I don't see mention of it in the description
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2014, 01:31:02 PM »
The line giving that interpretation is in the SRD is under Magic overview - Conjuration.

"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."

It's unclear whether air counts as a surface capable of supporting Fog Cloud's weight, however Cloudkill does explicitly state that the vapors are heavier than air.

(Have had a nonevil character pay a wizard good money to burn this spell from their spellbook.)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 01:33:40 PM by Kajhera »

Offline taltamir

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2014, 02:12:49 PM »
thank you for clarifying Kajhera.
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Offline spacemonkey555

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2014, 04:54:01 AM »
an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe (Cloudkill does neither when cast in empty space. Strike 1).

On casting in an empty square it doesn't affect any foes, but the invisibility test is on the spell itself, not an immediate result of casting the spell. When it affects a foe 3 rounds after casting, the condition is satisfied, the spell has included a foe in its effect. Yes, cloudkill can affect a foe even when cast on an empty space.

Quote
Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. (Like casting cloudkill in an empty square? Strike 2.)

An empty square is not an unattended object. A reasonable person knows the spell is directed at the foe especially, as well as everything else in its path, regardless of where it originates, and its funny how you're willing to mince words about directing an action, considering what follows. This rule you quoted is pretty obviously just saying that you can smash inanimate objects without losing invisibility.

Quote
Causing harm indirectly is not an attack.(We can mince words all day about causing harm directly or indirectly, but as that's entirely subjective and CANNOT be actually defined in the certain terms you are looking for, I'm staying out of it.)

That's the crux of the matter on your side of the argument, and utterly irrelevant to me, doesn't look like you're "staying out of it" though since you're already rationalizing about other clauses about directing the spell as justification for your pov. I read the rules and understand spells are attacks if they affect a foe. You read the rules and understand that an indirect attack is not an attack, so the delay in the spell affecting the target becomes relevant to you. Without interpreting the indirect attack clause, you have no argument that makes sense, because it's the only thing that conflicts with the direct statement that spells that include foes are attacks.

Quote
Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack This is a big one. Both spells create a dangerous spell effect, directed in part by the caster. If directing a summoned monster to rip someone's face off doesn't end invisibility, then the argument of "intent of the caster" doesn't hold up.

The summon spell isn't the attacker, the summoned monster is. If you cast a burning hands spell at an oil slick 50 yards wide and it catches fire, you aren't casting burning hands on the people at the opposite end of the oil slick, even though they are harmed. Likewise if you buff or transport an ally, you don't inherit their actions.

Quote
In fact, cloudkill isn't directed beyond the initial target location.),

Incorrect, though that is probably rai. The cloud moves away from you (the caster), not the casting location or any other fixed location. If you move, the cloudkill still moves away from you, by the raw. Directed if the caster cares to pay attention and move.

Quote
cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge (While not a spell, this is a far more direct example of expressing intent to kill.), remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth.

Spells (and only spells) have a separate test specifically calling out perceptions about the target. Perception/intent to kill a foe is only relevant for spells. For everything else it's attack a creature directly y/n?

Quote
Cloudkill fits none of the criteria for removing invisibility, except a completely ambiguous (and frankly unresolvable with this crowd) statement about direct vs indirect damage. As the rest of the spell gives examples to the contrary though, our group ruled that delayed effects are not attacks. This means pushing a boulder off a cliff on someone. This also means casting a cloudkill with no targets inside and letting it roll across the street.

It does fit the criteria of being a spell that includes a foe in its effect at some point during its existence, else its a pretty useless spell.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2014, 06:30:02 PM »
Let me see if I have your stance on this right:
Code: [Select]
•If you cast a spell, and nobody is hit, it is not an attack.
•If you cast a spell that does damage based on battlefield conditions, and somebody is in the path of the it, it IS an attack as soon as it reaches them.
•If you cast a spell, nobody is in the path, but then someone walks in front of it, it becomes an attack because they are now part of the AoE, meaning it's now a viable tactic to dive in front of AoEs to dispel invisibility

Second, I disagree with summons being different than a cloudkill.

"Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high"
vs
"Effect: One summoned creature"

The secondary effects of the spell (that the summoned creature is eating your face and that cloudkills are effected by D&D pseudo-physics) either have to be considered equally or considered specific exemptions with a rule to back them up.

(If this post seems aggressive, I apologize. I do not intend to put words in your mouth. I only wish to state my perspective of your stance, and seek confirmation)

Offline spacemonkey555

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2014, 11:56:57 AM »
Let me see if I have your stance on this right:
Code: [Select]
•If you cast a spell, and nobody is hit, it is not an attack.
•If you cast a spell that does damage based on battlefield conditions, and somebody is in the path of the it, it IS an attack as soon as it reaches them.
•If you cast a spell, nobody is in the path, but then someone walks in front of it, it becomes an attack because they are now part of the AoE, meaning it's now a viable tactic to dive in front of AoEs to dispel invisibility

If you cast a spell, and it doesn't fulfill the spell clause in invisibility, it isn't an attack as far as maintaining invisibility is concerned. It seems that requires someone to be targeted or affected, though perhaps not hit.

Not sure what you mean by battlefield conditions, unless you're implying that after cast, cloudkill is a perfectly natural cloud of poison. If you cast an instantaneous spell that turns the floor to lava, then someone jumps in, I'd say the spell is over before the harm is done and the invisibility survives. That's setting a trap that does indirect harm. Cloudkill is pure magic start to finish, after it expires it can't kill a microbe. If it travels for 10 minutes and finally reaches a town the wizard cast it at, it's now including foes in its continuing effect, fulfilling the clause.

Technically yes, RAW a creature diving into the cloud fulfills the clause. I could see dms ruling both ways, if you cast an area spell on the battlefield you're obviously hoping it hits someone (or trying to do area denial, but you're still aware you can do harm with your action). Alternatively, you didn't mean to harm that specific creature, even though you deployed a weapon that did so. I see it as attacking every square the spell affects, regardless of what you can see or intend, for simplicity. Don't want to lose invis? Don't cast aoes.

Quote
Second, I disagree with summons being different than a cloudkill.

"Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high"
vs
"Effect: One summoned creature"

The secondary effects of the spell (that the summoned creature is eating your face and that cloudkills are effected by D&D pseudo-physics) either have to be considered equally or considered specific exemptions with a rule to back them up.

Can you be in a cloud? Pretty obvious answer. You could make an argument about a summon swallowing someone whole, but summoned monsters are specifically exempted anyways. Summon Monster spells cannot qualify for the spell clause the way I look at them, they don't target foes, and they don't have an area or effect that includes foes. A summon monster spell is a transport/control spell, it's a debuff on the affected target (a preexisting being from another plane) not a targeted or area spell that could affect a foe. Cloudkill creates a magic attack that exists precisely as long as the spell does. It's obviously qualified if it lands on an opponent in the round it's cast, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, so how is it disqualified 6 seconds later when it arrives where the caster wanted it?

Quote
(If this post seems aggressive, I apologize. I do not intend to put words in your mouth. I only wish to state my perspective of your stance, and seek confirmation)

It's all good.

Offline linklord231

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2014, 12:07:44 PM »
I would rather have a Cloudkill aimed to hit an opponent next round not break invisibility than have a fighter charging in to a Wall of Thorns that you dropped to protect your team's flank break it.

I also don't think that any attack that involves waiting and hoping the enemy walks in to it can possibly be considered a "direct attack"  :P
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Offline Bauglir

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2014, 01:24:19 PM »
The problem is the devs had a vague idea of "I'll know it when I see it" and assumed everyone else would have the same vague idea. That's kinda the end of the story - there's no RAW way to settle this because there is no relevant RAW. It's as well-defined as your inability to sing I'm a Little Teapot and recover your hit points, only unlike that it isn't a question that common sense can answer (as demonstrated empirically by this thread).

You'll need to make a house rule to cover it. There are three ways you can do this, as I see it. I hope my preference is clear:
1: Effects continuously check to determine their attackiness. Once it's considered an attack, it breaks invisibility. This means an action can spontaneously become an attack, even without the intent of the actor, and leads to Fighters tossing themselves into Walls of Fire to break invisibility.
2: Effects check to determine their attackiness at creation time. Only if it meets the critera at this time does it break invisibility. This means that an action's qualities are known at the time of acting, and leads to Wizards doing things that by all common sense and decency ought to be "attacks" by fluff, but technically aren't by crunch.
3: You redefine the conditions for broken invisibility. This would also allow you an opportunity to even the footing between casters and non-casters in this situation. I'd recommend any spellcasting or attack roll breaking the spell. This has the advantage of giving you clear rules constructs and clear in-game flavor to reference, allowing you to dodge the whole "Well, some spells work, and some don't, and sometimes one spell can work in one context but not in another" quagmire.

Offline taltamir

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2014, 05:49:20 PM »
The problem is the devs had a vague idea of "I'll know it when I see it" and assumed everyone else would have the same vague idea. That's kinda the end of the story - there's no RAW way to settle this because there is no relevant RAW. It's as well-defined as your inability to sing I'm a Little Teapot and recover your hit points, only unlike that it isn't a question that common sense can answer (as demonstrated empirically by this thread).
Pretty much this.

So... if I were to use a houserule that rewrites that spell, what do you think is a good way to go about it?
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Offline Bauglir

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2014, 01:28:37 AM »
I'd recommend any spellcasting or attack roll breaking the spell. This has the advantage of giving you clear rules constructs and clear in-game flavor to reference, allowing you to dodge the whole "Well, some spells work, and some don't, and sometimes one spell can work in one context but not in another" quagmire.
This is what I'd go with. You break invisibility under two conditions:

1) You make an attack roll.
2) You cast a spell/manifest a power/use an invocation/initiate a maneuver/use a vestige's granted abilities, etc.

You can do anything else without worrying about breaking the spell. You might consider making an exception for abilities that are a swift or move action with Personal range, if you want to allow funky movement powers (not much else is going to fall into this category*). You may also want to consider abilities with the (Harmless) tag in their saving throw lines, if you like the idea of going invisible to buff and heal, and find it arbitrary that buffers just need to cast invisibility last in order to get their nice things (personally, I wouldn't do this, but it's an option).

*EDIT: Other than short-term buffs that will usually expire when you do something to break invisibility anyway. You'd want to include words to prevent Quickened things, though, probably.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 12:10:20 PM by Bauglir »

Offline nijineko

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2014, 01:08:19 PM »
i see to remember this discussion way back in 1e or 2e....

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: 3.5e invisibility and collatoral damage
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2014, 02:30:56 PM »
I'd recommend any spellcasting or attack roll breaking the spell. This has the advantage of giving you clear rules constructs and clear in-game flavor to reference, allowing you to dodge the whole "Well, some spells work, and some don't, and sometimes one spell can work in one context but not in another" quagmire.
This is what I'd go with. You break invisibility under two conditions:

1) You make an attack roll.
2) You cast a spell/manifest a power/use an invocation/initiate a maneuver/use a vestige's granted abilities, etc.

You can do anything else without worrying about breaking the spell. You might consider making an exception for abilities that are a swift or move action with Personal range, if you want to allow funky movement powers (not much else is going to fall into this category*). You may also want to consider abilities with the (Harmless) tag in their saving throw lines, if you like the idea of going invisible to buff and heal, and find it arbitrary that buffers just need to cast invisibility last in order to get their nice things (personally, I wouldn't do this, but it's an option).

*EDIT: Other than short-term buffs that will usually expire when you do something to break invisibility anyway. You'd want to include words to prevent Quickened things, though, probably.

I'd keep at at "no spells at all" for a combination of consistency and throwing mundanes a bone. If you allow some spells but not others, then you end up with corner cases. At the same time, you can easily explain spells breaking invisibility as "magical disruption" which already has a precedent in the rules (overlapping auras)