Core + Complete Warrior - Fighter 6 Build Advice

[7h39]

Hi everyone! i'm starting a new campign with a low-magic low-money game.

The party composition is Paladin (2Handed Divine Might Greatsword) / Wizard (Low Op Evoker-Enchanter) / Cleric (Mid-Op Melee [Divine Power wannabe])... Seems that i have the shorter stick..but i belive that with a good optimization (and obv the help of the forum ) i could still be competitive with the tier 1 not uber-op classes.

Stats -rolled- are Str 18 Dex 16 Con 11 (12 with Amulet+1) Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 10

Budget: Npc's (hardline master yeee) 5600gp and as topic title only Core+CW

i started with the classical spiked chain trip/power-attack build, but i'm open to other (powerful ) suggestions:

Feats:
Hm: Combat Expertise
Lv1: Power Attack
Ftr1: Combat Reflexes
Ftr2: Improved Trip
Lv3: EWP (Spiked Chain)

Ftr4: ? Ftr6: ? Lv6: ?

[phaedrusxy]

You absolutely should be a dwarf. Your con sucks and the +4 from stability will be very useful for a tripper. I'd ditch the spiked chain and use a guisarme + armor spikes instead to free up a feat.

[linklord231]

I can't help but feel that this is going to end badly.  The DM says he's running a low-magic, low-wealth game, but two of the party are primary spellcasters? 

Anyway, is the campaign intending to go past level 6, or is it an E6 kind of thing?  If the former, I'd consider dipping Barbarian 1 (Whirling Frenzy, if SRD counts as core) and then going for Frenzied Berserker.  Your free feats would be used for meeting prereqs. 

[phaedrusxy]

I can't help but feel that this is going to end badly.  The DM says he's running a low-magic, low-wealth game, but two of the party are primary spellcasters? 

Hey, if they're allowed, they're absolutely the strongest things in a game like this. Just make sure they support you with helpful buffs, etc (or play a druid ).

Even without WF, a barbarian dip isn't a bad idea. It isn't as critical to get in early without WF, though. In fact, as a non-spellcaster in mostly core games you're absolutely better off dipping lots of martial classes rather than sticking with one in particular.

A monk 2-level dip is a pretty decent option, also. Two bonus feats and +3 to all saves, plus Evasion (which works in light armor). You can also just use your unarmed strike (kick) instead of armor spikes (to combo with your guisarme). BAB is not nearly as important as people (especially WotC authors) make it out to be.

[7h39]

Thx for the suggestions!

Master is very hardline, classes/pg are for story issues and classes are locked for the moment. i'd really appreciate the barbarian dip , however he knows me (i like high optimization) and he would balance with other less-optimized characters i guess.

It seems that he'll give me sorceror's 1lv spellcasting (with 11 Charisma) for free: useful for Enlarge Person.

The campign range is 6th-15th and the build are open from 7th level.

What about combat brute or Shock trooper chain? or doge-mobility-elusive target? Improved initiative?

[Jackinthegreen]

If the paladin is the one focused on doing damage, you'll probably want to be looking at more of the tactical side of things, which might mean being a meat shield or just tripping stuff up and moving them around.

Given that you might have access to Enlarge person, being a big annoying target is probably your main goal.  Depending on what counts as core, the Stand Still feat from the SRD might work for you to keep your enemies from moving.  Also from the SRD is Knock-down which would help if you're going for more tripping options.  Both would work nicely with Combat Reflexes.

Shock Trooper is great for both offense and tactical defense since you can do a lot of damage on a charge, or you can opt to bull rush stuff around and perhaps even effectively trip them if you bull rush one foe into another.

Combat Brute might have more of an opportunity cost than you'd be willing to take even though it can combo exceptionally well with Shock Trooper.  The Knockback feat is the big (pun intended) way fighters can move stuff around and benefit from ST and CB.

Given all the feats you want you'll probably want to be human.  That'll also mean you won't get a hit to your charisma or constitution.  Although, upon looking at your con in the first place, it seems you probably shouldn't be the guy in the middle of everything...

Have you ever heard of the Horizon Tripper build?  The original build is barbarian 1/fighter 1/ranger 3/Horizon Walker 6+ (to get the Shifting planar terrain mastery which allows from Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds).  It might be adaptable for you if you plan on being more of the tactician so you can reposition yourself without actually having to move.

Improved Initiative is almost always good, and would allow you to get where you need to first before your partymates (and enemies!) do their thing.

Elusive Target is unfortunately quite feat intensive for what it does and isn't used unless dodge and mobility are needed for other stuff as well (mostly PrCs, though a couple feats are worth it as well).  If it just required dodge, or you're able to get mobility for free (and by free I mean that it doesn't replace another feat that you might have taken) then it'd be worth it.

[7h39]

If the paladin is the one focused on doing damage, you'll probably want to be looking at more of the tactical side of things, which might mean being a meat shield or just tripping stuff up and moving them around.

Given that you might have access to Enlarge person, being a big annoying target is probably your main goal.  Depending on what counts as core, the Stand Still feat from the SRD might work for you to keep your enemies from moving.  Also from the SRD is Knock-down which would help if you're going for more tripping options.  Both would work nicely with Combat Reflexes.

Shock Trooper is great for both offense and tactical defense since you can do a lot of damage on a charge, or you can opt to bull rush stuff around and perhaps even effectively trip them if you bull rush one foe into another.

Combat Brute might have more of an opportunity cost than you'd be willing to take even though it can combo exceptionally well with Shock Trooper.  The Knockback feat is the big (pun intended) way fighters can move stuff around and benefit from ST and CB.

Given all the feats you want you'll probably want to be human.  That'll also mean you won't get a hit to your charisma or constitution.  Although, upon looking at your con in the first place, it seems you probably shouldn't be the guy in the middle of everything...

Have you ever heard of the Horizon Tripper build?  The original build is barbarian 1/fighter 1/ranger 3/Horizon Walker 6+ (to get the Shifting planar terrain mastery which allows from Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds).  It might be adaptable for you if you plan on being more of the tactician so you can reposition yourself without actually having to move.

Improved Initiative is almost always good, and would allow you to get where you need to first before your partymates (and enemies!) do their thing.

Elusive Target is unfortunately quite feat intensive for what it does and isn't used unless dodge and mobility are needed for other stuff as well (mostly PrCs, though a couple feats are worth it as well).  If it just required dodge, or you're able to get mobility for free (and by free I mean that it doesn't replace another feat that you might have taken) then it'd be worth it.

Only PhB DMG and MM1 are "core" + Complete Warrior. This cut out stand still and KnockDown

I've tought about Guisarme/Spikes + Charge - Trip (to offset powerattack maluses) - PowerAttack Sunder - PowerAttack Swing + Momentum Swing Next turn.

If i succeed trip attempt opponents provokes 1 Aoo standing up (move action, he can't attack this turn, without reach) and another Aoo entering his melee range: Trip + Power Attack Swing.

Still need a good plan if opponent gets too close.

I heard of it! maybe i can go for it from 7th and above, but i was also wondering about Spiked Chain Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry of Strikes

Thx for the suggestion on elusive target

[Gribel]

Since you won't be getting pounce, mounted combat (Spirited Charge) would greatly increase your damage output when charging. If you're getting Shock Trooper, you should consider it.

[Jackinthegreen]

Only PhB DMG and MM1 are "core" + Complete Warrior. This cut out stand still and KnockDown

I've tought about Guisarme/Spikes + Charge - Trip (to offset powerattack maluses) - PowerAttack Sunder - PowerAttack Swing + Momentum Swing Next turn.

If i succeed trip attempt opponents provokes 1 Aoo standing up (move action, he can't attack this turn, without reach) and another Aoo entering his melee range: Trip + Power Attack Swing.

Still need a good plan if opponent gets too close.

I heard of it! maybe i can go for it from 7th and above, but i was also wondering about Spiked Chain Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry of Strikes

Thx for the suggestion on elusive target

Considering you're going for more of a tactical guy, EWM's Flurry won't really do much for you if you're going with Shock Trooper charging and such, although it would allow you to make another trip attempt against a different opponent on a full attack I suppose.  And there's also the Trip Attack stunt which would get you a +2 on trips with the spiked chain since it's already capable of tripping.  It'll eat even more into your feats though since it requires weapon focus on top of the exotic weapon prof.

As far as a mount goes, you might get some nice damage from it but since you don't have any actual class features related to a mount you should probably expect it to die fairly often, especially as you get into higher levels and the warhorse or whatever won't get tougher.  Mounted damage is also quite feat intensive and won't give you as much bang for your buck, plus there's the issue of having to haul around a large creature for your primary combat option to be viable.  I don't know how your campaign goes, but I don't think you'll always have the luxury of being able to charge while on a mount.  It's just not practical.

[Gribel]

To be fair, with 2 feats (Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge), you are able to triple your damage when charging in a place where a mount fits. That's possibly more damage than Shock Trooper, which also requires 2 feats you wouldn't otherwise get, but more than that, they are extremely sinergistisc. Spirited Charge triples the damage gained via Shock Trooper.

Combat Brute would require 2 more feats aswell, Improved Sunder and Combat Brute, so I wouldn't call mounted damage feat intensive. If you have a couple feats to spare, mounted combat is definitelly something you should consider.

[phaedrusxy]

To be fair, with 2 feats (Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge), you are able to triple your damage when charging in a place where a mount fits. That's possibly more damage than Shock Trooper, which also requires 2 feats you wouldn't otherwise get, but more than that, they are extremely sinergistisc. Spirited Charge triples the damage gained via Shock Trooper.

Combat Brute would require 2 more feats aswell, Improved Sunder and Combat Brute, so I wouldn't call mounted damage feat intensive. If you have a couple feats to spare, mounted combat is definitelly something you should consider.

It requires Ride-by-Attack as well.

[Jackinthegreen]

And do note that Spirited Charge only does triple damage when using a lance, which might not be a preferred weapon choice.  It's still double damage with any other melee weapon though.  The good thing about having a large mount and a reach weapon is that you can designate any square the mount occupies as the one you're attacking from, so that means you don't have to worry about a "dead zone" where you don't threaten.