Author Topic: Ur-Glaivelock build  (Read 6103 times)

Offline Brains

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Ur-Glaivelock build
« on: March 15, 2014, 12:30:50 AM »
I posted a build I was fiddling with quite some time ago that was basically this same idea, but I've since polished it up and made it more streamline so I thought it was worth posting again. Though I'm not sure where it lands in the tier system or even if it's any good, I'm quite happy with it. It's nothing original, and primarily uses basic ideas like the glaivelock and DMM persisting silliness but it works together nicely I believe.

Race: Githyanki (+2 LA, assuming full buyoff by 20)
Warlock 5/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple8/Monk 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/x 1 (Mystic maybe)

Here's a level by level build:
(click to show/hide)


Githyanki
Githyanki come from the astral sea, so casting planar bubble on one gives them a free quickened spell every round.

Also subjective directional gravity could be all sorts of fun in a dungeon.

That Monk level
The monk level will be modified with two different ACFs. First, it will be an Invisible Eye monk from UA for Combat Reflexes. Secondly, it will utilize the Decisive Strike ACF from PHBII.
Decisive Strike:
(click to show/hide)

Eldritch Glaive
(click to show/hide)
It's an invocation (an SLA), and can be quickened like a spell. Strength is not added to the damage rolls because it is not a weapon. However it is a melee attack and so Power Attack can be applied to it. Whether or not Power Attack can be applied to the damage rolls is unclear and has long been debated.
(click to show/hide)
Reach for this attack will be 25 ft. with enlarge person and 35 ft. with Righteous Might, but it will have a donut blindspot. With Divine Power persisted, Eldritch Glaive will be operating at a full attack bonus, including iteritives. AoOs can be made within this area and with a Devoted Spirit Amulet to give the Thicket of Blades stance, every movement will provoke one.

Decisive Strike + Eldritch Glaive
A round in combat can go like this if no additional spells/invocations are needed to be cast and no movements need to be made: Hit someone with Decisive Strike as a full round action. Then hit them with a double damage full attack maximized eldritch glaive as a swift action. If anyone moves before your next turn, hit them again with a double damage eldritch blast. Any hellfire damage is maximized and applied to every one of these attacks. Past level 14 eldritch blast will turn into vitriolic blast and bypasses SR, saves, and every attack deals an extra 2d6 acid damage every round. (Some argue that this acid DoT stacks with itself, which if it were true would make those iteritive attacks ridiculously powerful).

Here's some number crunching on EB's damage:
7d6 (base) +6d6 (hellfire) +2d6 (Chasuble) +1-4d6 (Scepter)
Total maximum of 19d6
Maximized: 114
Decisive: 228
Full attack: 912 damage
+228 for every AoO
if Power Attack is ruled as OK, then the full attack will be increased to 1072 damage.

Persistin'
Priority 1: Planar Bubble extended (can't be persisted)
Divine Power
Necrotic Empowerment
Holy Transformation
Greater Visage of the Deity
Shield of the Archons
Righteous Might

Whether all these spells can be persisted every day depends on that last level. If Dragonlance is allowed, Mystic would provide a second turning pool. Extended and persisted spells are also more turn efficient if you can manage to cast them a couple days in advance. If all of these are stacked, the caster will become a beast in combat.

That about covers it. The rest of my feat choices should be pretty self-explanatory but if someone wants I can clarify anything. By level 15 it has 9th level divine spells and a Dark Invocation, and does a much better job at melee than any straight fighter could ever.

Any comments, criticism, questions?
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Offline Waazraath

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 09:02:43 AM »
Three points after a quick read, two minor, one major:

- minor point: the devoted spirt amulet won't give you access to thicket of blades, since you also need to fulfill the prereq of the maneuver. And thicket of blades requires at least 1 other devoted spirit maneuver.

- minor point: the bind vestige feat: usually in builds using hellfire warlock, 1 level of binder is chosen to have access to naberius, to offset the ability damage from hellfire warlock. But the feat 'bind vestige' gives access to only 1 of naberius his abilities, which isn't the faster ability healing.

- major point: the effectiveness of this build varies greatly over the levels. At level 1 (ok, 3, since you'll start with +2LA) you'd be, no offense, the 'waste of space', and over the levels your build evolves to a melee monster that cast 9th level spells as well. Some examples: at level 3, you'd have 1 level warlock. You can either make 1d6 touch attacks, without the needed feats to do so, or go into melee, with you one lonely hit die and 1d6 damage. At that moment the party wizard casts glitterdust, the whirling frenzy barbarian pounces enemies for over 25 damage, the mounted paladin does tripple damage on a mounted charge, etc. At level 7, you'll have 3 BAB, if I see it right, and you can cast lvl 2 divine spells. Your melee damage is 3d6. The party wizard cast evards black tentacles, the crusader makes a melee attack with 8d8 bonus damage, the druid summons a bear, is a bear, and has as animal companion a bear, the whirling frenzy barbarian makes 3 attacks on a charge (with shock trooper and leap attack, if you play in an optimized environment). Even at level 12, when you can using DMM persist, I think you'll lag behind in damage compared to most other classess, and in utility as well compered with at least the full casters. At the high levels, you'll be able to shine.

Given the fact that you use LA buy off, I assume you start before level 6 - unless your DM is giving away +LA for free. If that's so, I'd be careful with playing this build, unless the entire party uses builds that start weak and end very strong (and the DM is aware of this). Else there is the risk that either at the beginning of the campaign your char is too weak and perishes soon, or at high levels becomes much stronger then the rest of the party.


Offline Empirate

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 09:40:25 AM »
Can you actually quicken EG even though it's a full-round action? I wouldn't allow it as a DM...

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 10:33:36 AM »
Can you actually quicken EG even though it's a full-round action? I wouldn't allow it as a DM...
It doesn't seem to be prohibited, though it appears the author of the feat didn't consider spell-like abilities that aren't a standard action to use.

Even if you allow it, it's only 3 times per day.
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Offline Brains

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2014, 11:07:42 AM »
Three points after a quick read, two minor, one major:

- minor point: the devoted spirt amulet won't give you access to thicket of blades, since you also need to fulfill the prereq of the maneuver. And thicket of blades requires at least 1 other devoted spirit maneuver.

- minor point: the bind vestige feat: usually in builds using hellfire warlock, 1 level of binder is chosen to have access to naberius, to offset the ability damage from hellfire warlock. But the feat 'bind vestige' gives access to only 1 of naberius his abilities, which isn't the faster ability healing.

- major point: the effectiveness of this build varies greatly over the levels. At level 1 (ok, 3, since you'll start with +2LA) you'd be, no offense, the 'waste of space', and over the levels your build evolves to a melee monster that cast 9th level spells as well. Some examples: at level 3, you'd have 1 level warlock. You can either make 1d6 touch attacks, without the needed feats to do so, or go into melee, with you one lonely hit die and 1d6 damage. At that moment the party wizard casts glitterdust, the whirling frenzy barbarian pounces enemies for over 25 damage, the mounted paladin does tripple damage on a mounted charge, etc. At level 7, you'll have 3 BAB, if I see it right, and you can cast lvl 2 divine spells. Your melee damage is 3d6. The party wizard cast evards black tentacles, the crusader makes a melee attack with 8d8 bonus damage, the druid summons a bear, is a bear, and has as animal companion a bear, the whirling frenzy barbarian makes 3 attacks on a charge (with shock trooper and leap attack, if you play in an optimized environment). Even at level 12, when you can using DMM persist, I think you'll lag behind in damage compared to most other classess, and in utility as well compered with at least the full casters. At the high levels, you'll be able to shine.

Given the fact that you use LA buy off, I assume you start before level 6 - unless your DM is giving away +LA for free. If that's so, I'd be careful with playing this build, unless the entire party uses builds that start weak and end very strong (and the DM is aware of this). Else there is the risk that either at the beginning of the campaign your char is too weak and perishes soon, or at high levels becomes much stronger then the rest of the party.

Great points all of them. I realized when posting that Thicket of Blades wouldn't be available because of the prerequisite, but this is easily fixed by getting TWO Amulets of Devoted Spirit and just pay the extra price of having one of them in a different slot.

I completely missed that tidbit about Bind Vestige. Replacing a binder level with the feat is one of the changes I made from my last post to reduce the amount of dips I was making, but it looks like I'll have to put it back in there as I'd rather use the questionable Strongheart Vest.

I'd like to just say that I'm unlikely to actually play any builds I post. I'm either the DM or playing a low-op character in the games I play  because everyone has more fun that way.
Builds like this are ones I make just for the hell of it. It's fun to mess around with whats out there and I learn more about the game while I'm at it.
That being said, the problem you described is one I rarely avoid while making builds like this. I'm terrible at balancing something at all levels and I'd much rather concentrate on end-game, because that's where I can really show synergy with different class abilities.
Lets say that this build would be for a game that started at ECL 6. That would mean warlock 4 and 2 LA, reduced to 1 LA before I take my next level. What changes could I make to this build to reduce the number of dead levels?

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Offline Brains

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2014, 11:10:21 AM »
Can you actually quicken EG even though it's a full-round action? I wouldn't allow it as a DM...
It doesn't seem to be prohibited, though it appears the author of the feat didn't consider spell-like abilities that aren't a standard action to use.

Even if you allow it, it's only 3 times per day.

This build doesn't include Quickened SLA. All the quickened Eldritch Glaives come from an Extended Planar Bubble spell. With a half decent CL this needs only to be refreshed maybe once a day for Quickened spells or SLAs every round.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2014, 11:18:28 AM »
Ah OK, now I see. I'd forgotten that you could quicken all SLAs (and spells) in the Astral Plane. However, since it works like Quicken Spell (explicitly), and you also explicitly can't use Quicken Spell on a spell with a full round action casting time (the bane of sorcerers everywhere), then I agree with Empirate that you couldn't Quicken an Eldritch Glaive using this method. The Quicken SLA feat might allow you to skirt this 3x/day as it has its own mechanics spelled out and they do not actually reference the Quicken Spell feat.
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Offline Brains

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2014, 11:30:28 AM »
Ah OK, now I see. I'd forgotten that you could quicken all SLAs (and spells) in the Astral Plane. However, since it works like Quicken Spell (explicitly), and you also explicitly can't use Quicken Spell on a spell with a full round action casting time (the bane of sorcerers everywhere), then I agree with Empirate that you couldn't Quicken an Eldritch Glaive using this method. The Quicken SLA feat might allow you to skirt this 3x/day as it has its own mechanics spelled out and they do not actually reference the Quicken Spell feat.

Why can't you quicken Full-round spells? The feat says: A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full-round action cannot be quickened. It doesn't say more than or equal to unless there's errata that says so.
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2014, 11:36:29 AM »
I guess I should look things up before citing them. :P The Quicken Spell feat says it can't be used on spontaneously cast spells, because using metamagic on them increases the casting time to one full-round action ("trumping" the effects of the feat). I'd misremembered why the feat didn't work on spontaneous spells...

Since the Astral trait specifically says it allows you to quicken spell-like abilities as with Quicken Spell, and Quicken Spell lets you Quicken spells with up to 1 full-round action, then yes it should work as you'd intended.
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Offline Brains

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2014, 11:43:20 AM »
I guess I should look things up before citing them. :P The Quicken Spell feat says it can't be used on spontaneously cast spells, because using metamagic on them increases the casting time to one full-round action ("trumping" the effects of the feat). I'd misremembered why the feat didn't work on spontaneous spells...

Since the Astral trait specifically says it allows you to quicken spell-like abilities as with Quicken Spell, and Quicken Spell lets you Quicken spells with up to 1 full-round action, then yes it should work as you'd intended.

Whew, thanks. You had me worried for a moment.
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Offline Snowbluff

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Re: Ur-Glaivelock build
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 03:36:56 PM »
That's pretty cool bro. You got me curious in Planar Bubble. I didn't realize it with my initial, cursory glance that Githyanki lets them make an Astral Bubble until I looked at the spell.  :)

I also suggest using some Vile (or Sanctified, depending on everything) spells. They are a good way of expanding a spell list.

Strongheart Vest is RAW. I strongly suggest it, especially with Vile/Sanctified spells.

I wonder if there is an easier way of getting an Astral Bubble. Occular Spell would let you Persist the bubble.
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