How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?

[JaronK]

Heh, you forgot Mechanicus Gear (Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook).  +10 AC, 0 Max Dex (good with Mithral).  1750gp, imposes extra movement penalties (but Dwarfs and mounted warriors don't care).

Also, Amulet of Natural Armor is missing, as a cheap option.

Can't believe I forgot Rings of Protection.

JaronK

[Mooncrow]

Heh, you forgot Mechanicus Gear (Manual of the Planes or Planar Handbook).  +10 AC, 0 Max Dex (good with Mithral).  1750gp, imposes extra movement penalties (but Dwarfs and mounted warriors don't care).

Also, Amulet of Natural Armor is missing, as a cheap option.

Can't believe I forgot Rings of Protection.

JaronK

Ah, thank you, I've been looking for the exact stats for Mechanicus Gear (for some reason I was thinking it was a Dragon Mag thing) - I guess I should put the NA amulet on, though with Wands of Barkskin so cheap...

[littha]

There is also the cost/benefit of LA in this as Natural armor is one of the few places that LA can actually pass Class levels in usefulness.

Mineral Warrior gives +3 for 1 LA, this could be bought off by level 10. I am having trouble locating optimal templates for natural armour because nobody seemingly bothered listing it in any handbooks. Mineral warrior also has other benefits of course (DR 8/Adamantine is awesome).

Evolved Necropolitan is also 1 LA (+ Necropolitan) and nets you +1 NA but also gets you up to a 7th level SLA 1/day. Circle of Death would be fun at level 2...


Lycanthropes are again higher ECL but can give a massive bonus to Natural Armor. Wereboar at +6 ECL gets you 8 natural armor and DR 10/silver... 8 natural armor is priced at 1.2 million gp.

[JaronK]

Half Minotaur gives +4 NA (+2 basic, +2 for becoming large) for 1LA.  Obviously you lose one armor for the size increase, but it's still the best... especially with the insane Str and Con boost.

JaronK

[lans]

We might want to consider fighting defensively and expertise, expecially for when the  opposing creature has already dealt you a chunk of damage

In a world of Leap Attacking Shock Troopers who Pounce people, do you really want to walk away from your enemy?

[littha]

More on the Lycanthrope idea:

WereOctpus gets you 4 natural armor at ECL +5 but also gets you some fun abilities 10'/10'/10' cloud of total concealment as a free action and move 200' a round as a full round action with no AoO's. These are usable even while in humanoid form and apparently even when you aren't in water.

WerePorpoise gets you the same +4 Na for ECL +5 but gets you 120' blindsight instead.


Will go through the other monster manuals later...

[JaronK]

We might want to consider fighting defensively and expertise, expecially for when the  opposing creature has already dealt you a chunk of damage

I dunno, if you're doing that you've usually stopped dealing any offensive damage... that's a problem I'd say.

In a world of Leap Attacking Shock Troopers who Pounce people, do you really want to walk away from your enemy?

Stock monsters aren't usually Leap Attacking Shock Troopers, though.  But yes, "just walk away" is rarely a viable option.

JaronK

[zugschef]

For AC, how about taking up Pearls of Power to feed the cleric for Greater Magic Vestments on shield and armor? That keeps that bit of cash free to reinvest into other wealth, like that cloak there.

A pearl of power costs about the same as a +3 armor, it isn't until +4 or +5 that you see savings unless you also want armor properties.

rod of chaining. profit.

[lans]

We might want to consider fighting defensively and expertise, expecially for when the  opposing creature has already dealt you a chunk of damage

I dunno, if you're doing that you've usually stopped dealing any offensive damage... that's a problem I'd say.

In a world of Leap Attacking Shock Troopers who Pounce people, do you really want to walk away from your enemy?

Stock monsters aren't usually Leap Attacking Shock Troopers, though.  But yes, "just walk away" is rarely a viable option.

JaronK

Sorry, I was referring to the PC doing that, and using the threat of him being able to do that to lock down the creature attacking him, even while fighting defensively with expertise.

[Shadowhunter]

We might want to consider fighting defensively and expertise, expecially for when the  opposing creature has already dealt you a chunk of damage

I dunno, if you're doing that you've usually stopped dealing any offensive damage... that's a problem I'd say.

There's Deadly Defense in Comp. Scoundrel. You can even look at it as a minor PA. -2 to hit for +1d6 damage and +2 AC, this is usually a good trade. So if you've been forced to pick up Combat Expertise somewhere along the line, it might be a viable option.
It works with all light weapons and any Finessable weapon.
Given that the most probable build to use Combat Expertise is one that picked up Improved Trip and the best tripping weapon is the Spiked Chain, which is Finesseable, this is a good thing.

[Kethrian]

Okay, while I go through to get the full attack bonuses, I'll list their standard ACs as well, so that you can determine whether Combat Expertise or the like will be viable options at that level, too.

[JaronK]

If you can (and I know this is asking a bit much), list their damage per hit as well (average).  That'll tell us how much damage you'd take at various AC values (and thus how many hits you can safely risk).

JaronK

[Kethrian]

Good idea.  I'll add that too.  12-hour night shift gives me plenty of time to get it all done.

I guess I'll just make a new post for it all, and put each book into a table, instead of just editing the last one.

[Mooncrow]

I think I'm pretty much finished with the non-setting stuff; I'm actually tempted to make a handbook out of this now^^

For ridiculous AC stacking, not surprisingly the Archivist is probably going to be the winner for that one.  Though, it might end up getting edged out by the Archivist/Binder/Anima Mage combo.

But, even without worrying about persisted spells, any type of gish, or even half casters like paladin or ranger should have no problem hitting the target numbers - same for anyone with with decent UMD  (Eternal Wand of alter self is probably the standout item - 2210g to make: a pretty sweet deal for +6 to a hard to get armor type)

Still more to do, I'll keep updating as I go. 

[Kethrian]

Okay, here's the updated and much more detailed list for CR 10 monsters.  I did not include crit range and multipliers, DR, energy resistane, most immunities, non-offensive SLAs or abilities, or fast healing unless it is an exceptional amount.  I also did not list damage for rake/rend/constrict, or list any feats other than PA (power attack) and improved trip/disarm/grapple.  Damage is a total average, regardless of if it has bonus energy damage, with fractions rounded down.  Some creature types have been mentioned, mostly  for immunities, plus giant for dwarf dodge bonus. 

Note: as true dragons do not come with feats preassigned, I gave them all Multi-Attack in the calculations.

MM 1

(click to show/hide)

Attack                                  Avg. Damg                   AC    HP     Special
+25                                     27                          11    256    construct
+19/+14/+14                             16/9/9                      22    150    demon, poison DC 24 (1d6/2d6 con), rend armour, web, Imp. Grapple, PA
+12                                     8                           21    58     fly, poison DC 16 (2d4/4d4 str), imp. grab/constrict, polymorph
+15/+13 or +15/+10 ranged               9/9 or 7/7                  28    102    poison DC 20 (2d6/2d6 dex), SLA, SR 25
+20/+15/+10 or +20/+20 or +10 ranged    25/25/25 or 12/12/ or 24    23    142    giant, PA
+14/+14                                 18/18                       22    90     golem, cursed wound DC 26, Haste 1/day 3 rounds free action
+16 x11                                 11 x11                      21    118    fast healing 21
+13 x9                                  10 x9                       19    97     fast healing 19, 9x breath wp. 3d6 DC 19
+21/+21/+16                             17/17/12                    24    150    vermin, poison DC 23 (1d8/1d8 con), imp. grab/constrict
+9                                      13                          16    76     poison DC 18 (1d8/1d8 con), charm gaze, sorcerer 7
+8/+8/+3                                3/3/3                       21    52     SR 27, sorcerer 7, change shape (humanoid)
+23/+18/+13/+18                         18/18/18/16                 18    112    imp. grab/constrict, SLA, PA
+15/+15/+12                             9/9/11                      24    95     change shape (humanoid), SLA
+24/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22                 16/8/8/7/7/17               24    168    dragon, breath wp. 8d10 DC 22, fly, sorcerer 3
+19/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17                 11/6/6/5/5/10               24    152    dragon, breath wp. 8d8 or para 1d6+4 rounds DC 21, fly, sorcerer 3, alternate form (animal or humanoid) 3/day
+19/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17                 11/6/6/5/5/10               24    152    dragon, breath wp. 5d6 or sleep 1d6+4 rounds DC 21, fly, burrow, sorcerer 5, SR 18, frightful presence DC 20
+23/+21/+21/+21/+21/+21                 13/7/7/6/6/13               26    189    dragon, breath wp. 6d6 DC 23, fly, burrow, sorcerer 1, SR 18, frightful presence DC 20

MM 2

(click to show/hide)

Attack                       Avg. Damg         AC    HP     Special
+10/+8/+8                    11/4/4            18    75     shapechanger, poison DC 18 (1d6/2d6 wis), SLA, regen, SR 21
+19/+14/+9 or +16            20/20/20 or 11    31    118    golem, wounding, Maze 1/day, PA
+17 (+20 vs metal armour)    33                26    128    construct, SR 21, imp. grab/constrict, burrow
+26/+21/+21 or +27           24/16/16 or 36    10    290    animal, PA, trample
+16/+16/+16/+16/+11          14/14/14/14/7     16    102    plant, imp. grab/swallow whole, SU acid fog 2/day
+13/+13                      8/8               12    97     vermin, wounding, imp. grab/blood drink 2d4 con drain
+30/+30/+24                  18/18/14          23    311    animal, pounce, rake
+30                          22                22    372    animal, aquatic, imp. grab/swallow whole
+11                          4                 21    45     yugoloth, fear gaze DC 15, SLA
+18/+18/+13 x6               11/11/5 x6        25    190    fly, imp. grab/bite, SLA, imp. trip
+22/+17/+17 or +22           12/6/6 or 12      27    127    trample, vorpal, fast healing 10, SR 21, int 2
+18/+18                      16/16             28    123    construct, fast healing 10, stun DC 25
+9/+9                        1/1               18    36     sorcerer 12, immune mind-affecting, spell weaving (6 spell levels per round)
+9/+4/+20                    7/7/13            21    85     yugoloth, PA, breath wp. 2d6 plus stun DC 19, stunning blow DC 25, energy drain (stunned only), SR 25
+19/+17/+17/+17/+17/+17      11/6/6/5/5/10     24    152    dragon, breath wp. 8d8 DC 21, fly, burrow, sorcerer 3

MM 3

(click to show/hide)

Attack                                      Avg. Damg                     AC    HP     Special
+24/+24                                     28/28                         22    220    elemental, fly, PA, shock 12d4 DC 28, thunder and lightning 12d6 & 24d6 DC 28
+19/+14/+9                                  12/12/12                      28    142    giant, sand blaster DC 22, PA
+17/+17/+14                                 17/17/8                       24    126    vermin, burrow, rend, trample, shake the earth, sonic chime 1/day
+18/+13/+8/+10/+10 or +15 x4                25/25/25/8/8 or 11 x4         23    161    yugoloth, bleeding wounds, rake, SR 24, fly, imp. grab, SLA, PA
+16/+16                                     14/14                         23    104    undead, plague DC 21
+15/+10/+5/+9/+9/+9 or +12/+7/+2 ranged     26/26/26/9/9/9 or 11/11/11    23    185    deafening bellow DC 22, rage 2/day, PA
+23/+23/+20                                 16/16/8                       22    178    sticky spray DC 24, PA
+16 x5                                      4 x5                          21    97     fly, poison DC 19 (stops healing), pounce, shriek para 2d4 rounds DC 24, Kiss (vargouille DC 23)
+14/+9/+9                                   16/11/11                      22    202    breath wp. 1d4 con DC 24, poison DC 24 (1d4/1d4 con), PA, SR 18
+16/+11/+6/+11 or +16/+16/+11 (PA for 5)    41/41/15 or 21/21/15          22    217    giant, PA, knockdown, fast healing 9

MM 4

(click to show/hide)

Attack                             Avg. Damg         AC    HP     Special
+18/+18/+13                        16/16/8           21    147    SR 18, PA, imp. grab/constrict, antimagic grapple
+20/+20 or +9 ranged               23/23 or 19       24    157    giant, PA, rend, earth glide\
+15/+10 or +10/+5 ranged           16/16 or 8/8      17    81     PA, SR 14, poison DC 24 (1d6/2d6 str)
+17/+12                            15/15             23    129    archon, fly, SR 20, Aura of Menace DC 18, Justice Strike, Smite Evil 1/day (+3 attack/+4 damg)
+19/+14/+9 or +19/+14/+9 ranged    7/7/7 or 7/7/7    22    88     PA, poison DC 16 (2d12 hp/1d6 con) or DC 24 (1d6/2d6 str), sudden strike +3d6, breath wp. 7d4 DC 16
+23/+18/+13/+15                    32/32/32/19       23    138    PA, +2d6 vs dragons/outsiders, SR 20
+14/+9 or +14/+9 ranged            4/4 or 5/5        21    60     poison DC 14 (1d4/1d4 con) or DC 24 (1d6/2d6 str) or DC 17 (1 str drain/2d6 str), human bane melee (+2 attack/+2d6 damg), sneak attack +5d6, alternate form, assassin 7 (spells & death attack DC 20)
+18/+13 or +18/+13 ranged          7/7 or 7/7        24    111    yugoloth, SR 19, unluck (roll attack & damg twice vs monster), bestow curse DC 18 (50% chance to act), sneak attack +3d6, corrupting gaze DC 15, assassin 5 (spells & death attack DC 16)

MM 5

(click to show/hide)

Attack                       Avg. Damg            AC    HP     Special
+16                          8                    24    110    demon, SR 18, burrow, poison DC 22 (2d6 hp/1d6 con), SLA
+18/+18/+18                  11/11/11             21    119    demon, SR 18, immobilize DC 21, form of madness DC 20, acid spray 2d4 DC 21
+15/+10 or +13/+13 or +13    18/18 or 7/7 or 9    20    138    giant, PA, breath wp. 6d6 DC 23
+5 incorporeal               2 cha                11    78     undead, incorporeal, animate trees, daunting presence DC 19
+16                          38                   20    125    launch spawn, mind blast 3d4 rounds DC 15 3/day
+11 x4 or +12/+7             3 x4 or 7/7          23    90     SR 25, imp. disarm, imp. grab/extract brain, mind blast 3d4 rounds DC 20, cleric 4, SLA
+19/+19 or +19 ranged        13/13 or 16          23    161    elemental, PA, shock wave
+16/+16                      23/23                24    126    elemental, PA, slimy infestation (+12 attack/ 1d8+5 damg), sludge form, horrific presence DC 22
+19/+18/+18                  18/11/11             39    175    counterstrike +19/1d8+4 damg, frigid stare 13d6 DC 24, ice storm 3/day

[veekie]

Looks like blocking the first attack is a lost cause for most creatures, but you can stop the subsequent ones with much less investment.

[lans]

The highest attack is 25*, so we can get on the RNG scale pretty easy, and if things are using PA then armor becomes more worthwhile as a pseudo damage reduction.

*Not counting MM2

[Kethrian]

And don't forget, the only ones with a higher attack than +25 are animals, they can be OHKO'd with a simple Ray of Stupidity.