How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?

[Basket Burner]

I have always been uner the assumption that eliminating tactics is a sin in fantasy games. Trading blows is whats great about fantasy media. When winning initiative is the deciding factor of victory, you may as well not have combat anymore, since anyone can plan a strategy beforehand.

My opinion is that 3-5 rounds should be the length of every level-appropriate enconuter.
And binary things suck. I desire a system that works inside of iteself. I'm looking at you magic (with the whole subverting normal defenses like hp!).

HP are a binary defense.

HP is binary in nature (dead vs not dead), but it is not a binary defense, it is gradual. If you have enough hp, no one physical attack will kill you; your "defense" just gets weaker.
It would be like if you succeed in a Will Save, then your next will save has a smaller mod, and just gets worse every time you make a Will save.

Saves are binary defenses, hp is a gradual defense.

You either have HP > 0 or you don't. If you do, you're fine. If you don't, you are not fine. So if you get hit for 99, but have 100 or more and then kill them, you win.

AC is also a binary defense, and one that spends most of its time stuck on "no".

With saves, once a spell lands you're probably done. The chance of that happening isn't 5% or 95% though most likely. It can be 5%, but that's beside the point. So while they are binary in the sense of once you get hit you're done, they're not binary in the sense of grades of defense as you can have a higher or lower chance they will land. Unlike AC where you get hit 95% of the time, and unlike AC where only the last one matters.

[Mooncrow]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.   

[archangel.arcanis]

I have always been uner the assumption that eliminating tactics is a sin in fantasy games. Trading blows is whats great about fantasy media. When winning initiative is the deciding factor of victory, you may as well not have combat anymore, since anyone can plan a strategy beforehand.

My opinion is that 3-5 rounds should be the length of every level-appropriate enconuter.
And binary things suck. I desire a system that works inside of iteself. I'm looking at you magic (with the whole subverting normal defenses like hp!).

HP are a binary defense.

HP is binary in nature (dead vs not dead), but it is not a binary defense, it is gradual. If you have enough hp, no one physical attack will kill you; your "defense" just gets weaker.
It would be like if you succeed in a Will Save, then your next will save has a smaller mod, and just gets worse every time you make a Will save.

Saves are binary defenses, hp is a gradual defense.

You either have HP > 0 or you don't. If you do, you're fine. If you don't, you are not fine. So if you get hit for 99, but have 100 or more and then kill them, you win.

AC is also a binary defense, and one that spends most of its time stuck on "no".

With saves, once a spell lands you're probably done. The chance of that happening isn't 5% or 95% though most likely. It can be 5%, but that's beside the point. So while they are binary in the sense of once you get hit you're done, they're not binary in the sense of grades of defense as you can have a higher or lower chance they will land. Unlike AC where you get hit 95% of the time, and unlike AC where only the last one matters.

HP is a gradual defense. It controls a binary state of screwed and not screwed, technically it is 4 states (conscious, staggered, unconscious, dead). The issue is that all of the deviation between states is small (11 points between the lowest conscious and dead) while the most important state tends to have a much larger and growing value (your positive HP).

[Basket Burner]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

Being hit by anything that leaves you with > 0 HP does about nothing. Only that last one counts. Win a battle with everyone at 1 HP? Total victory. Win a battle with one person at -10 and the others fine? Heavy losses. Even though the latter takes much less damage than the former.

[archangel.arcanis]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

Being hit by anything that leaves you with > 0 HP does about nothing. Only that last one counts. Win a battle with everyone at 1 HP? Total victory. Win a battle with one person at -10 and the others fine? Heavy losses. Even though the latter takes much less damage than the former.

As I explained HP aren't meaningful until you get near 0, but that doesn't make them binary either.

[Basket Burner]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

Being hit by anything that leaves you with > 0 HP does about nothing. Only that last one counts. Win a battle with everyone at 1 HP? Total victory. Win a battle with one person at -10 and the others fine? Heavy losses. Even though the latter takes much less damage than the former.

As I explained HP aren't meaningful until you get near 0, but that doesn't make them binary either.

You get swung at. It misses. You don't care.
You get cast on. You save. You don't care.
You get swung at. It hits, but you still have > 0 HP. You don't care.

All of these are examples of binary effects. HP and AC are also binary in the sense of having them or not having them whereas saves have more of a range between 5% and 95%.

[Mooncrow]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

Being hit by anything that leaves you with > 0 HP does about nothing. Only that last one counts. Win a battle with everyone at 1 HP? Total victory. Win a battle with one person at -10 and the others fine? Heavy losses. Even though the latter takes much less damage than the former.

A true binary defense doesn't give a shit about what happened before - only about the incoming hit now.  AC is binary, HP is not.

[LordBlades]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

For a given hit, HP are sort of binary: Either the damage is <your current HP and you're perfectly all right, or the damage is > your current hp and then you're no longer all right. These are the only possible results.

The basic difference between HP and saves is that getting better HP means that it will always take more hits until you reach the 'screwed' condition whereas getting better saves it means that statistically it will take more hits to reach the 'screwed' condition.

HP might not fit the theoretical definition of 'binary defense' but they usually work as such in game.

[Mooncrow]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

For a given hit, HP are sort of binary: Either the damage is <your current HP and you're perfectly all right, or the damage is > your current hp and then you're no longer all right. These are the only possible results.

The basic difference between HP and saves is that getting better HP means that it will always take more hits until you reach the 'screwed' condition whereas getting better saves it means that statistically it will take more hits to reach the 'screwed' condition.

To put it another way, if you swing at a binary defense with the same dice result every time, the exact same result will happen every time. 

[Zonugal]

I absolutely hate the idea and application of rocket tag.

That is probably one of the reasons my campaigns stay under level ten.

[archangel.arcanis]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

Being hit by anything that leaves you with > 0 HP does about nothing. Only that last one counts. Win a battle with everyone at 1 HP? Total victory. Win a battle with one person at -10 and the others fine? Heavy losses. Even though the latter takes much less damage than the former.

As I explained HP aren't meaningful until you get near 0, but that doesn't make them binary either.

You get swung at. It misses. You don't care.
You get cast on. You save. You don't care.
You get swung at. It hits, but you still have > 0 HP. You don't care.

All of these are examples of binary effects. HP and AC are also binary in the sense of having them or not having them whereas saves have more of a range between 5% and 95%.

Ok saves, AC, etc.. are binary. Pass/fail no other options. HP are NOT BINARY. They are a variable value. If you lose 10 HP it is twice as bad as losing 5 HP. Unless those 5 points cause you to cross the 0 HP threshold they don't hinder your combat ability, but 5 and 10 hp loss are different things. I understand that you are concerned with the implications of No penalty vs unconscious but that is separate from HP. You are being intentional ignorant of what the hell binary means and the fact that HP is a separate issue from consciousness.

[Basket Burner]

Conscious or Unconscious is a binary condition, but hps are not a binary defense.  They would be a binary defense if your hps reset to full after every hit.

Being hit by anything that leaves you with > 0 HP does about nothing. Only that last one counts. Win a battle with everyone at 1 HP? Total victory. Win a battle with one person at -10 and the others fine? Heavy losses. Even though the latter takes much less damage than the former.

A true binary defense doesn't give a shit about what happened before - only about the incoming hit now.  AC is binary, HP is not.

Given that any PC damage dealer worth his salt will be one rounding things, and a fair number of enemies will be one rounding PCs that's not so far off.

HP are binary because there are only two values that matter. Numbers greater than 0, and numbers that are 0 or lower. Just as there are technically many values of AC, but most of them still get you hit 95% of the time. And when they don't, that's just at low levels.

I absolutely hate the idea and application of rocket tag.

That is probably one of the reasons my campaigns stay under level ten.

The irony of this is that rocket tag is stronger at 1-10 than 11-20, because the latter has more things to block rockets.

[Zonugal]

I absolutely hate the idea and application of rocket tag.

That is probably one of the reasons my campaigns stay under level ten.

The irony of this is that rocket tag is stronger at 1-10 than 11-20, because the latter has more things to block rockets.

My conception of rocket tag tends to involve huge, NASA-built rockets.

But I guess I am also biased in that I have never run or played in a game that has ever even gotten close to rocket tag.

[Basket Burner]

The vast majority of characters are 1 or 2 rounded by simple level appropriate attacks at all levels of play.

One Will save effect tends to shut down entire encounter.

That's rocket tag. And it's all over the place.

At levels 11-20 you can get the defensive measures so it's not so easy. It's possible to do it sooner with enough optimization, but it still doesn't really take off until 11-20. Before that, you're stuck in kill it before it kills you mode.

[Zonugal]

Basket, I honestly feel your entire philosophy of D&D is surrounded with 'kill it before it kills you.'

But beyond that I tend to run games from 3-8 level where actual save or die spells are less prevalent. But you are certainly correct about the first initial levels being determined by a dodge of a blade or escaping a burning hands spell.

I just wouldn't refer to those as 'rockets.'

[archangel.arcanis]

Basket, I honestly feel your entire philosophy of D&D is surrounded with 'kill it before it kills you.'

But beyond that I tend to run games from 3-8 level where actual save or die spells are less prevalent. But you are certainly correct about the first initial levels being determined by a dodge of a blade or escaping a burning hands spell.

I just wouldn't refer to those as 'rockets.'

Even there things like grease and glitterdust can effectively end the enemies ability to fight back in a meaningful way. That is the gist of rocket tag, it isn't always about them dead now.

[Basket Burner]

Basket, I honestly feel your entire philosophy of D&D is surrounded with 'kill it before it kills you.'

Generally, being dead impedes one's ability to play. So while my entire philosophy doesn't revolve around it, it is a roadblock that must be bypassed.

But beyond that I tend to run games from 3-8 level where actual save or die spells are less prevalent. But you are certainly correct about the first initial levels being determined by a dodge of a blade or escaping a burning hands spell.

I just wouldn't refer to those as 'rockets.'

Well no, a Burning Hands isn't a rocket. But a Color Spray certainly is. So is Glitterdust, Web, Slow, Stinking Cloud... One spell lands and you're done, and you're going to have low saves relative to the DCs. Regular attacks will take you out in about 2 hits, and they can probably move as well so the easiest way to stop that doesn't work.

[archangel.arcanis]

I guess threads like this just let you know who has you ignored. 

[SneeR]

I guess threads like this just let you know who has you ignored. 

How so?

[X-Codes]

I guess threads like this just let you know who has you ignored. 

How so?

People who quote BB and people who don't.

Allow me to throw my hat in with the "HP is not a Binary Defense" argument.  Binary is on/off, pass/fail, win/lose.  Against a given attack, there might not even be a possibility for a loss when talking about HP, and each hit against HP alters the outcome of subsequent attacks.  If you're throwing attacks at a guy that kill him if he fails a DC 20 saving throw, but he has save modifiers of +21, then you can't wear him down with attacks and alter how subsequent attacks will affect the target.  On the other hand, if you do 20 damage a hit with a sword, then even if your opponent has 50 hit points, the third attack will have different potential outcomes than the first two.