How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?

[Endarire]

Eventually, the game becomes it.  Be it through massive damage or "Save or X" abilities (some of which have no save), there's a good chance fights will be won on who can execute their murder combo soonest.  Sometimes, that's as simple as charging the sucker and hitting him once, or with a full attack.

I feel that it's expected.  I generally prefer it over 4E's padded sumo effect, but if I'm not sure how to discourage it.  Rocket tag seems an expected part of the system, even from level 1.  It's a matter of who shoots what rockets.

[LordBlades]

Only way to discourage it is by a gentleman's agreement(or nerfing the game to the point it's no longer fun, but I hardly think that's a good alternative). If both you and the players are fully aware of what rocket tag is and how it affects the fun factor(I don't think 'win initiative or die' type of situations aren't very fun for anyone), it's not that hard to refrain from doing certain things. Playing lower tier characters also helps.

Some level of rocket tag will certainly exists, as it's built into the system (save-or-suck spells, weapon enhancements like Vorpal, etc), but it's going to be 'I cast a reasonable DC save-or-die at you' not 'I've won initiative, I'm now going to do my 125 rounds of actions; by the time I'm done you'll be at the center of a rolling death sphere that practically nullifies all your defenses and allows no save; I'd say enjoy your afterlife but I also included a few soul trapping effects'.

[SolEiji]

What would happen if creatures greater than +4 CR of you were resistant or immune to save or dies?  It would restrict it to using it on mooks and not bosses.  Of course, that's not a solution for the raw damage deaths... emm, creatures above +4 CR have a hard damage cap that you can affect them with?  Like Yaizmat in FF12, where after a while your maximum damage drops from 9999 to something like 3500 or something.

Hmm, it could even scale so that things only a few CR above you are merely resistant while things dramatically above you are almost impossible due to the limits.

*Rubs chin, thinking*

[weenog]

What would happen if creatures greater than +4 CR of you were resistant or immune to save or dies?  It would restrict it to using it on mooks and not bosses.  Of course, that's not a solution for the raw damage deaths... emm, creatures above +4 CR have a hard damage cap that you can affect them with?  Like Yaizmat in FF12, where after a while your maximum damage drops from 9999 to something like 3500 or something.

Hmm, it could even scale so that things only a few CR above you are merely resistant while things dramatically above you are almost impossible due to the limits.

*Rubs chin, thinking*

I think the Useless Useful Spell effect is the main reason rocket tag exists in the first place.  There are many interesting options you could use that never ever see play because they don't work in situations where you can't afford a slip-up.  Cut out the options that do work in those situations -- whether it's by eliminating those options, or by giving all the potent encounters a [Boss] tag that includes the effect "immune to everything that would be really useful against this guy" -- and either you still have rocket tag but only the enemies are armed, or you have to eliminate those situations entirely, in which case you might as well just quit being pretentious and go straight to nerfs all around.

[LordBlades]

What would happen if creatures greater than +4 CR of you were resistant or immune to save or dies?  It would restrict it to using it on mooks and not bosses.  Of course, that's not a solution for the raw damage deaths... emm, creatures above +4 CR have a hard damage cap that you can affect them with?  Like Yaizmat in FF12, where after a while your maximum damage drops from 9999 to something like 3500 or something.

Hmm, it could even scale so that things only a few CR above you are merely resistant while things dramatically above you are almost impossible due to the limits.

*Rubs chin, thinking*

That would have two problems:
First of all it breaks the immersion and make everything feel very video game-ish: I'm a wizard X; BBEG is immune to my Disintegrate. I level up and being stupid I become a wizard x/fighter 1. Although I have exactly the same magical ability, the BBEG is no longer immune to my Disintegrate.
Secondly save-or-die aren't the main offenders of rocket tag, but no-save-just-suck (or die or whatever). How do you make something immune to let's say Forcecage based on CR? It either has teleportation abilities and then it's forever immune to it(unless you use Dimensional Anchor) or it doesn't.

[Basket Burner]

There are other ways of diminishing the rocket tag, but they require heavy optimization and heavy houserules.

[RobbyPants]

I like it to a point, but I also don't have a lot of experience in D&D past 10th level. I'd say only 25% of my play time/DM time is spent above 10th level.

Although, it is fun somewhat. I'm running a Tome game now and that pretty much embraces RLT. It just gives it to you at an earlier level.

[veekie]

Rocket tag is better than padded sumo, but I personally favor about 4 'exchanges'(that is, actions from both sides) before wrapping it up.
It boils combat down to strategy and luck, no tactics necessary beyond targeting the right thing, and certain combat styles are inherently unfeasible(anything aimed at mitigating rather than outright canceling offenses, things that deal damage over multiple rounds, debuffs that don't entirely shut down the enemy, etc) while others are disproportionately powerful(anything that denies actions at all).

Really, you can boil it down to the basic factor that most D&D defenses are binary in nature. Either they work and nothing happens, or they don't and you get a new death. Wildly variant effectiveness is another, the most powerful effect in a given category is significantly more powerful than the average effect, often several times.
Soak based defenses, degrees of failure, partial hits, all these can contribute to dampen the rocket tag. Mutants & Masterminds(esp 3e) has got a lot of these basic mechanics balanced right, could do nicely as a base to loot ideas from.

[SolEiji]

What would happen if creatures greater than +4 CR of you were resistant or immune to save or dies?  It would restrict it to using it on mooks and not bosses.  Of course, that's not a solution for the raw damage deaths... emm, creatures above +4 CR have a hard damage cap that you can affect them with?  Like Yaizmat in FF12, where after a while your maximum damage drops from 9999 to something like 3500 or something.

Hmm, it could even scale so that things only a few CR above you are merely resistant while things dramatically above you are almost impossible due to the limits.

*Rubs chin, thinking*

That would have two problems:
First of all it breaks the immersion and make everything feel very video game-ish: I'm a wizard X; BBEG is immune to my Disintegrate. I level up and being stupid I become a wizard x/fighter 1. Although I have exactly the same magical ability, the BBEG is no longer immune to my Disintegrate.
Secondly save-or-die aren't the main offenders of rocket tag, but no-save-just-suck (or die or whatever). How do you make something immune to let's say Forcecage based on CR? It either has teleportation abilities and then it's forever immune to it(unless you use Dimensional Anchor) or it doesn't.

Touche, didn't think about no-save-just-suck, though I intended "save or die" to include save or suck as well.  The immersion thing is easy to overcome with refluffing, but yeah, right now the idea isn't workable as is.  Maybe set it to CL rather than HD.... but there are ways to boost CL.  Hmm, I dunno.  Actual non-boosted CL?

I wouldn't mind SoDs being in the favor of bosses were it used sparingly.  Ups the danger with them, and I'm ok with that.  Likewise these former boss monsters become weaker when you outclass them turning them into mooks.

I'll give it some thought, I kinda like the idea, if I could solve its flaws.

[Libertad]

Soak based defenses, degrees of failure, partial hits, all these can contribute to dampen the rocket tag. Mutants & Masterminds(esp 3e) has got a lot of these basic mechanics balanced right, could do nicely as a base to loot ideas from.

I really liked how Mutants and Masterminds added degrees of failure to status-affecting attacks.

For example, fail a save, move slower; fail by 5 or more, move slower+ additional penalties; fail by 10 or more, immobilized.

So instead of making "save or lose" be all or nothing, it's "how much did you lose?"

Very good ideas for game design and house rules.  I've always liked that system, even for non-superhero stuff.

[weenog]

"Used sparingly" is a nice idea but it never seems to work out that way in practice.  My roommate and I got to talking about this not too long ago when we were watching Blade 2, specifically the scene where Blade falls into the pool of blood while nearly dead and then gets up and starts destroying everything.  Scenes like that are cool for movies, or novels, but you can't make the assumption that a beastly ability will only be used in times of desperate necessity or high drama, at the table.  The assumption is stupid, players won't use that kind of stuff sparingly, plenty of DMs won't either.  The ability will get used all the time, exposed as obviously broken, and people will wonder what the hell you were thinking designing it.

If I had an ability to get +40 to all physical scores by drinking something, and the only limiting factors were it's evil and it's pretty disgusting, I'd be wearing a giant foam dome full of it at all times, with the cans replaced with kegs.  Blood, unholy water, sewage, paint, I don't care.  Foam dome.  Kegs.

[X-Codes]

Yeah, the thing is, I don't mind that characters doing that thing from Blade 2 every single battle.  That said, I think I'd prefer... say... Sniper Tag to Rocket Tag.  You only get the OHKO on a headshot.  M&M's graduated system of saves comes to mind.

[weenog]

Yeah, the thing is, I don't mind that characters doing that thing from Blade 2 every single battle.  That said, I think I'd prefer... say... Sniper Tag to Rocket Tag.  You only get the OHKO on a headshot.  M&M's graduated system of saves comes to mind.

Yes, but suppose instead of some knucklehead turning into physical god to beat the piss out of hordes of templated mooks, inanimate objects, and boss encounters that are also just physical gods (what?), it's a gnome that likes casting miracle, and instead of saving it for special occasions and with deity oversight he's casting it out of cantrip slots and with nobody around to say no.

Sniper tag does sound better than rocket tag, but achieving it could be tricky.

[SneeR]

I have always been uner the assumption that eliminating tactics is a sin in fantasy games. Trading blows is whats great about fantasy media. When winning initiative is the deciding factor of victory, you may as well not have combat anymore, since anyone can plan a strategy beforehand.

My opinion is that 3-5 rounds should be the length of every level-appropriate enconuter.
And binary things suck. I desire a system that works inside of iteself. I'm looking at you magic (with the whole subverting normal defenses like hp!).

[Basket Burner]

I have always been uner the assumption that eliminating tactics is a sin in fantasy games. Trading blows is whats great about fantasy media. When winning initiative is the deciding factor of victory, you may as well not have combat anymore, since anyone can plan a strategy beforehand.

My opinion is that 3-5 rounds should be the length of every level-appropriate enconuter.
And binary things suck. I desire a system that works inside of iteself. I'm looking at you magic (with the whole subverting normal defenses like hp!).

HP are a binary defense.

[X-Codes]

I have always been uner the assumption that eliminating tactics is a sin in fantasy games. Trading blows is whats great about fantasy media. When winning initiative is the deciding factor of victory, you may as well not have combat anymore, since anyone can plan a strategy beforehand.

My opinion is that 3-5 rounds should be the length of every level-appropriate enconuter.
And binary things suck. I desire a system that works inside of iteself. I'm looking at you magic (with the whole subverting normal defenses like hp!).

In mid-to-high-level D&D 3.5e, though, the only round that really matters is the first one.  After that it's all rote cleanup.

[veekie]

That there would be having a problem with the concept of rocket tag. A lot of BFC effects also pale out later in the game because they simply don't have time to take effect. Rocket tag loses more than it gains IMO.

[Satori]

I'm of the opinion that if you want to bother with HP at all, nearly all save or dies have to go...

[SneeR]

I have always been uner the assumption that eliminating tactics is a sin in fantasy games. Trading blows is whats great about fantasy media. When winning initiative is the deciding factor of victory, you may as well not have combat anymore, since anyone can plan a strategy beforehand.

My opinion is that 3-5 rounds should be the length of every level-appropriate enconuter.
And binary things suck. I desire a system that works inside of iteself. I'm looking at you magic (with the whole subverting normal defenses like hp!).

HP are a binary defense.

HP is binary in nature (dead vs not dead), but it is not a binary defense, it is gradual. If you have enough hp, no one physical attack will kill you; your "defense" just gets weaker.
It would be like if you succeed in a Will Save, then your next will save has a smaller mod, and just gets worse every time you make a Will save.

Saves are binary defenses, hp is a gradual defense.

[X-Codes]

4e actually fixed that to some extent, by hard-coding the Bloodied condition into the game.  It doesn't actually do anything by itself, but there are a number of other abilities that are triggered by it.