Author Topic: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?  (Read 77953 times)

Offline Shadowhunter

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2011, 02:02:08 PM »
Depends of if they knew there were enemies around to take advantage of the precarious position of the bridge or not. Just going over a bridge isn't a bad idea in itself. If they all did go over a one-file rope bridge at the same time in dangerous territory, they're begging for enemies to take advantage of it...

Actually, the more I think about it the more it becomes obvious for me that it's the terrain that would adjust the challenge, not the opponents. If the monsters are played according to their intelligence and wits, they should act in a certain way and that should be the base line of the challenge. You're challenged by cunning and disciplined Hobgoblins, not dumber-than-usual Hobgoblins.
It's the terrain and the external factors that modifies it.

I would say that the following two scenarios are not the same CR.
1. The adventurers burst into the Hobgoblin barracks, finding the goblinoids playing cards (or whatever hobgoblins do on their spare time. They could be looking at charcoal drawings of nude elves and Ropers having "fun" for all I know) and advancing onto them. The players have planned for this and choose the tactically most sound time to strike. PC's get surprise round, Hobgoblins have to spend their first round to equip their weaponry and become a threat.

2. The hobgoblins assault the adventurers where the terrain allows them to rain down arrows on the party, allowing for multiple rounds of crossbow fire before the party can reach them. Also mixed in are some clever tactics with good old fire, flasks of oil, obscuring smoke etc from the goblinoids.

I would say that the first one is according to the normal CR (because lowering the CR just because the party was smart is stupid and no one here claims otherwise I hope) whilst the second one deserves a +1 to it.

You do have a very good point in that they should just fly over if they can. I usually play lower levels (1-8) so having an entire party capable of flight isn't my normal games. I'm not trying to make a point about the game in it's entirety based on low levels, but the hobgoblin bridge example was simply the first one that came to mind. I'm sure there's a suitable mid-to-high level scenario in the same vein, I'm just not used enough to that levels and the assumed capabilities of a party at said level to provide with such a scenario.
 

As for not a threat if they can only get you halfway to death, I disagree.
If the party can not lock down the entire opposing force with BFC and crippling debuffs in 1-2 rounds (which is often the case when I DM), having enemies that will start killing of your party members in 2-3 rounds is a threat.

If we look at it this way:
You claim that level appropriate encounters kills players in 1-2 rounds, am I correct?
If that is the case (which it might fully well be, it's not my experience but I'm sure there's plenty of situations that is like that) then you have to have damage dealers that can deal high amounts of damage. Because it's the only way to contribute good enough, fast enough. If you don't put down the hurt, you're dead very soon.
Now, if we say that Mister Monster have a Danger level of 10 when it comes to killing people. That means that Sir Swordalot must be at least level, let's say 7 to be able to deal damage high enough to not be a liability.

If we compare this to situations which I would prefer and have more experience with, when it takes more than 1-2 rounds for the opponents to kill someone. Let's say Mister Monster have a Danger level of 7. Sir Swordalot must be, let's say 4 to be contributing.

The same amount of "Damage I deal to the monsters compared to how hard they hit us" in both cases, but the overall damage on both sides are less in example 2 than in example 1. It takes more hits from both sides before one of them goes down.
Of course the numbers are completely arbitrary because there's no such thing as "Danger level" but it's the basic principle I'm after and when I can't explain it any other way I start assigning labels just to show people how I think. I hope you get what I'm trying to say here.


I do not like games where your death is 1 round away unless you do the perfect action on a regular basis (unless it's a boss fight, then it's ok). Neither do my players. So we avoid such scenarios and that's the way we play the game. It works for us.

I won't say whether or not you're correct in drawing the line at a certain standard, because I have not enough experience or data to have a definite opinion on it. It's just that in my experience the 1-2 rounds before death usually isn't the standard. If it is because I choose too unoptimized monsters, give my players too optimized characters or you're wrong somewhere I don't know.
If it means that I'm pulling punches as a DM, so be it. It makes the group happy and makes it better for us. I might be. I don't think I am, but it's possible.

The line you draw you see as objective (the math supports it from your POV thus it becomes objective) whilst others here see it as subjective (for a reason or another). I do not have enough D&D-skills to say where the line should be drawn (nor to accept or refute the math you claim), I only know where I draw it myself because it works for both me and my players.

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2011, 02:54:17 PM »
Only 25-50% to one person? Doesn't sound like a very threatening enemy.

Offline veekie

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2011, 03:01:34 PM »
It isn't, CR = party level is the equivalent of 4 guys beating on one guy as strong as they are, hes supposed to be a routine encounter.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #83 on: November 27, 2011, 03:17:43 PM »
I would say that the first one is according to the normal CR (because lowering the CR just because the party was smart is stupid and no one here claims otherwise I hope) whilst the second one deserves a +1 to it.

I consider them both exactly the same CR. Intelligence is its own reward, and stupidity its own punishment. So if you jump them it's easier, and if they jump you it's harder. Same reward, just the better you play the easier you get it. Doing otherwise just leads to people doing a Leeroy Jenkins intentionally because it's more rewarding than playing smart.

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You do have a very good point in that they should just fly over if they can. I usually play lower levels (1-8) so having an entire party capable of flight isn't my normal games. I'm not trying to make a point about the game in it's entirety based on low levels, but the hobgoblin bridge example was simply the first one that came to mind. I'm sure there's a suitable mid-to-high level scenario in the same vein, I'm just not used enough to that levels and the assumed capabilities of a party at said level to provide with such a scenario.

As long as even one person can fly, it works out fine. Consider a level 3 party. Alter Self, to take the form of a flier. Wizard flies across, Benign Transpositions with someone else, and repeat. A party lower level than 3 wouldn't be able to take them all on regardless. Having a wand of the latter isn't that hard at this point and it has plenty of uses outside of this scenario.

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As for not a threat if they can only get you halfway to death, I disagree.
If the party can not lock down the entire opposing force with BFC and crippling debuffs in 1-2 rounds (which is often the case when I DM), having enemies that will start killing of your party members in 2-3 rounds is a threat.

If it takes them that long, then they are not threats, plain and simple. You can either take them out with save or loses or by damage, but if it's been three rounds and you're still fighting the same things, expect your dead to join theirs.

Quote
If we look at it this way:
You claim that level appropriate encounters kills players in 1-2 rounds, am I correct?
If that is the case (which it might fully well be, it's not my experience but I'm sure there's plenty of situations that is like that) then you have to have damage dealers that can deal high amounts of damage. Because it's the only way to contribute good enough, fast enough. If you don't put down the hurt, you're dead very soon.
Now, if we say that Mister Monster have a Danger level of 10 when it comes to killing people. That means that Sir Swordalot must be at least level, let's say 7 to be able to deal damage high enough to not be a liability.

Yes. Either to land a save or lose of their own, or just kill via damage. And by land a save or lose of their own, I mean on everyone. Most of them hit an area, at least the good ones do and unless you're taking the proper steps to buff your saves the first hits 50-75% of your party and the second hits everyone else, negating them for the combat (at least). Damage is for one person, but you know dead is dead.

If you are a PC, and you're stuck doing damage yes you do have to do a lot of it, as only the last HP means anything.

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If we compare this to situations which I would prefer and have more experience with, when it takes more than 1-2 rounds for the opponents to kill someone. Let's say Mister Monster have a Danger level of 7. Sir Swordalot must be, let's say 4 to be contributing.

That doesn't describe actual D&D though.

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I do not like games where your death is 1 round away unless you do the perfect action on a regular basis (unless it's a boss fight, then it's ok). Neither do my players. So we avoid such scenarios and that's the way we play the game. It works for us.

One round kills are rare unless it's a strong enemy, you have a weak build, or both. Two are exceptionally common, the leading cause of death even. First takes you to 30% or so, second finishes you off. It's also rare you have to perform the perfect action, unless stuck with a perfection is mediocrity build, then you have no choice. You do have to perform effective actions though. Effective in the sense of can be effective. So if you cast Slow and they save, that's fine, you couldn't have predicted that. If you're playing around moving enemies around on a non Dungeoncrasher, that's not fine, you're wasting actions.

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I won't say whether or not you're correct in drawing the line at a certain standard, because I have not enough experience or data to have a definite opinion on it. It's just that in my experience the 1-2 rounds before death usually isn't the standard. If it is because I choose too unoptimized monsters, give my players too optimized characters or you're wrong somewhere I don't know.
If it means that I'm pulling punches as a DM, so be it. It makes the group happy and makes it better for us. I might be. I don't think I am, but it's possible.

It's most likely because you're pulling punches. Just about every enemy out there has a small chance of one rounding level appropriate PCs and a near 100% chance of doing it in 2. You'd have to be doing some very heavy countermeasures to offset this, and then those tend to reduce the chance of being 2 rounded instead of making it so you last longer. That does make a difference, as say... going to a 50% chance that a given round of actions will work on you still means you get two rounded 1 time in 4. Since there are many monsters and one of you, that sort of thing tends to just breed complacency.

Quote
The line you draw you see as objective (the math supports it from your POV thus it becomes objective) whilst others here see it as subjective (for a reason or another). I do not have enough D&D-skills to say where the line should be drawn (nor to accept or refute the math you claim), I only know where I draw it myself because it works for both me and my players.

One thing I've found here is that despite this being an optimization board, most here aren't really cut out for that at all. They might think that they are optimizing, because they are making something better while ignoring that the goal is not to make something better, it is to make it good enough. Having 2 dollars is more money than having 1 dollar. You still do not have enough cash to make any significant purchases. Now for this reason they adopt mindsets that have no business being held by any serious player, such as claiming the DM should adjust encounters (which defeats the entire point of optimization, as you could just make whatever terrible character you want and it work just as well as someone that actually tries). The core of that is dismissing objective things as if they are subjective. So yes, others see it as subjective. That isn't a valid argument though.

veekie: 25-50% would mean something like say... Anywhere from 3 to 13, as a level 3 character. the first being 25% vs the standard array on a Wizard and the second being 50% vs the standard array on a Fighter. Well, that's nothing. Lower level enemies hit harder than that. Even stock encounters pull off 14-16 on average quite easily. That's a lot closer to 70% than 25-50%.

Offline Zonugal

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #84 on: November 27, 2011, 03:22:31 PM »
One thing I've found here is that despite this being an optimization board, most here aren't really cut out for that at all. They might think that they are optimizing, because they are making something better while ignoring that the goal is not to make something better, it is to make it good enough. Having 2 dollars is more money than having 1 dollar. You still do not have enough cash to make any significant purchases.

Obviously someone has never ventured into the beauty of a dollar store.

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #85 on: November 27, 2011, 03:24:03 PM »
One thing I've found here is that despite this being an optimization board, most here aren't really cut out for that at all. They might think that they are optimizing, because they are making something better while ignoring that the goal is not to make something better, it is to make it good enough. Having 2 dollars is more money than having 1 dollar. You still do not have enough cash to make any significant purchases.

Obviously someone has never ventured into the beauty of a dollar store.

Yes, because many things that are not actually one dollar and that are of very low quality constitutes a solid rebuttal. Oh wait, it doesn't.

Offline Mooncrow

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #86 on: November 27, 2011, 03:35:34 PM »
One thing I've found here is that despite this being an optimization board, most here aren't really cut out for that at all. They might think that they are optimizing, because they are making something better while ignoring that the goal is not to make something better, it is to make it good enough. Having 2 dollars is more money than having 1 dollar. You still do not have enough cash to make any significant purchases.

Obviously someone has never ventured into the beauty of a dollar store.

Yes, because many things that are not actually one dollar and that are of very low quality constitutes a solid rebuttal. Oh wait, it doesn't.

Because choosing a shitty analogy in the first place constitutes proof.  Oh wait, it doesn't. 

Offline Zonugal

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2011, 03:48:36 PM »
One thing I've found here is that despite this being an optimization board, most here aren't really cut out for that at all. They might think that they are optimizing, because they are making something better while ignoring that the goal is not to make something better, it is to make it good enough. Having 2 dollars is more money than having 1 dollar. You still do not have enough cash to make any significant purchases.

Obviously someone has never ventured into the beauty of a dollar store.

Yes, because many things that are not actually one dollar and that are of very low quality constitutes a solid rebuttal. Oh wait, it doesn't.

Obviously someone has never tasted the beauty of a Sasta 3-liter soda.

Offline veekie

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2011, 03:51:08 PM »
^^
Back on topic people. Stretched analogies have nothing to do with Rocket Tag here.
Quote
Just about every enemy out there has a small chance of one rounding level appropriate PCs and a near 100% chance of doing it in 2.
A very small chance, if unmodified, and straight up CR vs party of 4 at the same CR. Multiple lower CR enemies do not present the same threat until you're running with well above encounter CR by the given guidelines or if they are 'boss' grade for their CR(a dozen kobold sorcs with magic missile for example).
Quote
25-50% would mean something like say... Anywhere from 3 to 13, as a level 3 character. the first being 25% vs the standard array on a Wizard and the second being 50% vs the standard array on a Fighter. Well, that's nothing. Lower level enemies hit harder than that. Even stock encounters pull off 14-16 on average quite easily. That's a lot closer to 70% than 25-50%.
Remember we're assuming Team Derp with a healbot here. There'd be a healer to turn that 50% into 25%.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2011, 04:01:54 PM »
^^
Back on topic people. Stretched analogies have nothing to do with Rocket Tag here.
Quote
Just about every enemy out there has a small chance of one rounding level appropriate PCs and a near 100% chance of doing it in 2.
A very small chance, if unmodified, and straight up CR vs party of 4 at the same CR. Multiple lower CR enemies do not present the same threat until you're running with well above encounter CR by the given guidelines or if they are 'boss' grade for their CR(a dozen kobold sorcs with magic missile for example).
Quote
25-50% would mean something like say... Anywhere from 3 to 13, as a level 3 character. the first being 25% vs the standard array on a Wizard and the second being 50% vs the standard array on a Fighter. Well, that's nothing. Lower level enemies hit harder than that. Even stock encounters pull off 14-16 on average quite easily. That's a lot closer to 70% than 25-50%.
Remember we're assuming Team Derp with a healbot here. There'd be a healer to turn that 50% into 25%.

No, multiple lower level enemies do more combined damage. For example two Dire Wolves put out an easy 30. 1 CR 5 would do less than that.

Team Derp would be turning 70% into 45%. Then they take another 70%, and don't have any more %s.

Offline lans

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2011, 04:33:51 PM »
The Tiger does 46, so I think the wolfs do less

Also  6 headed hydras do ~50 damage

Elementals seem to do 30 at cr 5
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 04:41:18 PM by lans »

Offline veekie

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2011, 04:41:39 PM »
^^
Don't forget to account for the chance to hit going down with increasing defense values on low vs high contests.

Now the point of doing with reduced rocket tag.
The difference lies here. Presuming Strong and Weak as descriptors for having rockets or not.
With rocket tag:
Strong parties defeats enemy within 2 successful dice rolls.
Strong parties lose member with 2 successful dice rolls from Team Monster. Rest of party then demolishes enemy anyway.
Weak parties defeats enemy with upwards of 5 successful rolls(between init, defense rolls and attacks).
Team monster demolishes Weak parties. TPK results.
Most of the damage and costs are likely to wind up on one character, since engagement time is limited(in a dispersed party an enemy is likely to only be able to target one guy and the one guy is not going to disengage before a potential fatality on either side).
Surprise is vastly powerful. Losing the awareness contest is likely to wind up with a dead character in one shot, particularly when active defenses cannot yet be brought to bear AND gaining 0.5 rounds in a combat that involves at most 2 rounds is a 25% increase in effectiveness.
Combat challenge is purely strategic and luck based. If you went in with the right build and luck, you win, if you miss either, you lose.

Without rocket tag:
Both parties take 5 rolls or so to be defeated or defeat a foe.
This takes 3-4 rounds.
The increased time expands the role of tactical decisions in play, you can make choices to overcome
Damage and costs is more likely to be spread out, due to the increased presence of tactics. Movement is more likely when you can adjust and allow another character to engage, or transfer resources from PC to PC.
Surprise value is diminished. Presuming 4 rounds, 0.5 rounds represents only 12.5% of the total combat, a significant, but much less overpowering edge.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
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Offline lans

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #92 on: November 27, 2011, 05:15:42 PM »
Two Dire Wolfs do ~30 damage around ignoring AC, a healbot cleric heals 19 hp before any optimization, a Fighter has 32+5Xcon hp. So Fighter would be at -9 before any con mods or optimization on the healbot.  Barbarian would still be RAGE!, Rogue would be dead, monk would be dead or fine depending on ACFs.

Close Wounds, and Imbued Healing make the healee another 7&6 hp respectively.

Augment Healing does another 6.

Touch of Healing adds another +1
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 05:33:28 PM by lans »

Offline Basket Burner

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #93 on: November 27, 2011, 05:35:59 PM »
The Tiger does 46, so I think the wolfs do less

Also  6 headed hydras do ~50 damage

Elementals seem to do 30 at cr 5

Both the tiger and the hydra have less accuracy, both absolutely and relatively. The elemental does more, mostly because it's a breakpoint for elementals. 5 vs 7 is also a breakpoint for elementals, but 7 vs 9 nearly doubles the damage output of elementals.

Breakpoints aside, multiple enemies focusing fire results in more death and not less given an equal encounter level.

Basing the time to beat encounters on dice rolls is meaningless. A full attack is just as deadly if it's two big hits as six small hits. A single spell wins fights and if cast by the enemy it's winning it for them. It's actions that matter. Two full attacks are two actions. A spell is one action. Two spells are two actions.

Offline veekie

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #94 on: November 27, 2011, 11:17:10 PM »
Actions =/= dice rolls, but here the concern is that when it boils down to a small number of dice, encounters are as likely to be decided by fluke(consecutive high/low rolls) as they are to be decided by tactics. The only way to counter flukes is using strategy to eliminate luck from the equation entirely.
Flukes are universally in favor of Team Monster, as theres always more Team Monster where that came from.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2011, 07:01:17 AM »
It comes down to 5 dice. Claw claw bite wing wing. One rounded.

That's why I say it should be based on actions, as those are the only meaningful units of time.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2011, 08:13:09 AM »
Oh?  Dragons get pounce, do they?  And it doesn't include the tail attack either?  Because no half-way intelligent tank will let a dragon get a full attack otherwise.
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Offline veekie

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2011, 09:03:13 AM »
Odds of a halfway intelligent anything would let a dragon full attack are fairly low, but it can quite easily initiate a grapple and effectively end that one character.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
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Offline Basket Burner

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2011, 09:08:20 AM »
Oh?  Dragons get pounce, do they?  And it doesn't include the tail attack either?  Because no half-way intelligent tank will let a dragon get a full attack otherwise.

They easily can. But if it can't full attack, it's going to do something else, that is probably more dangerous. And the only way it might even remotely target the "tank" is by unloading a full attack into it, so you have no choice.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: How do y'all feel about the concept of rocket tag in 3.5?
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2011, 09:25:41 AM »
They easily can. But if it can't full attack, it's going to do something else, that is probably more dangerous. And the only way it might even remotely target the "tank" is by unloading a full attack into it, so you have no choice.

And just how easy is it for a dragon to get pounce?  Other than taking levels in Totem Barbarian, that is.  And you have plenty of choice, merely by having the non-tanks invisible/silenced/out of range/behind a barrier/whatever other defensive magic is available.  And what can a dragon typically do that is more dangerous than a full attack?  Unless it ambushed the PCs, they should all have enough resistance/immunity to its breath weapon to render that a much weaker option, and its spellcasting is another weak option, unless the dragon is a much higher CR than the PCs' level.

Odds of a halfway intelligent anything would let a dragon full attack are fairly low, but it can quite easily initiate a grapple and effectively end that one character.

Which is why the party should have multiple options for dealing with grapples, such as Close-Quarters Fighting, max ranks in escape artist, verbal only teleportation spells, Regroup, Benign Transposition and a summoned critter, Baleful Transposition and another enemy, or items like Boots of Big Stepping, Anklet of Translocation, Boots of Swift Passage, and so on.
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