Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)

[Snowbluff]

Beguiler > Warmage

Just my 2 coppers.

I played a healer once, and I actually healed. It was a low level and low tier game, so Mastery of Day and Night helped. I had some acid spit from soulmeld stuff, so I could do some damage while the paladin wasn't getting fatally wounded.

EDIT: Looking at that argument, most of the things are factually incorrect or holding a double standard. Like how Implosion doesn't work on most of the creatures that are immune to Dominate Monster, or how that save bonus in Dominate Person isn't cumulative.

[WarlockLord]

First, Charm/Dominate doesn't work against Constructs, Oozes, Plants, Undead or Vermin. Secondly Charm/Dominate Person doesn't work against Aberrations, Animals, Dragons, Elementals, Feys, Giants, Magical Beasts, Monstrous Humanoids, or Outsiders. Thirdly, not all Humanoids know Common by default and Charm/Dominate are Language dependent. Fourthly, they don't end Encounters.

Charming a creature to stop fighting while the Fighter is next to him grants the creature a massive +5 Bonus to his Save (currently being threaten), and you can't even convince the creature to allow you to pass without an additional charisma based check, because it's against what a guard or patrol or hungry cannibal would normally do. And if you attempt to circle the guy to "ambush him" he auto-breaks Charm (any threats break it).

Dominate on the other hand awards additional Saves with a +2 Bonus per order. If you Dominate a creature and tell it to stop fighting when it would normally fight, it resaves. Then you order it to show you the way, it resaves. And when the creature does Resave, he can instantly start a new Encounter except the rest of your Party is Flat-Footed during his Surprise round. That's pretty f'ing harsh when you think about it.

Then teach the Fighter to stop attacking when you cast charm, not even difficult.  The charmed character will attempt to subdue his allies if they attack his new buddy, it's right in the definition.  The problem with charm is that it's open ended, but it hardly does nothing and just lets the fight resume.  Same with dominate, it depends on how you interpret "against it's nature".  Bob the Freedom fighter might not want to make propaganda speeches for the BBEG, but I don't think it is entirely against his nature to pass the Cheetos.

Phantasmal Killer, the Mind-Affecting independent Cloudkill, the rape you Circle of Death, and lol Implosion end the Encounter. Charm/Dominate just delays it, *if* they work in the first place.

Phantasmal Killer allows 2 saves, of which very few creatures have both low.  Cloudkill will deal a small amount of ability damage to equal CR opponents and you don't care.  Circle of Death will not even touch equal CR opponents while setting your money on fire.  Implosion is a good spell, but it also comes online at 18th level

Warmage gets Shields, Beguiler didn't. So while one of them is waiting until they can afford a Mitheral Buckler, the other is looking forward to increasing his already obtained Bonuses.

Point taken.  I guess the Beguiler is going to have to go cry in the corner with his access to mirror image.

Also "Wizard Spells" can be proven it's not synonymous with "Wizard Spell List"

Ok, put up or shut up.  I'd like to see this proof.

and when I mentioned Holy Word I was talking about Saveless Encounter Winners, sticking to generic Wizard Spells only does not remove Amber Sarcophagus's Save-less stasis or Iceberg's FoM bypassing auto burial & CL/d6 damage so the point still stands.

Um, you quite clearly called out the holy word line.  Also warmages don't actually get any advanced learnings past 16th level, when they can learn up to 8th level spells, so no Iceberg.  Sarchophagus isn't bad but it doesn't have the whole AoE doom that the words do.

For instance, a gish focused Warmage may tank his Edge (it's not that significant anyway) and focus on Strength. Fist of Stone is a 1st level Spell that not only grants a Natural Weapon allowing the Warmage to make multiple Attacks per round while the Fighter and Barbarian are five levels away from such, Fist of Stone gives a +6 Enhancement Bonus to Strength. Holy crap right? A brute force Warmage makes a better Fighter than a ACFed to holy hell Barbarian.

Two-Weapon Fighting comes online at level one, as does Whirling Frenzy.  You can be a whirling frenzy pounce guy with 3 attacks on a charge (and 2 attacks when not raging).  It's not even hard.  You can be a TWF warblade with punishing stance and do comparable damage.  You can also have heavier armor and more hit points, as a warblade.

Alternatively you can play as the blaster archetype you're supposed to. The Elder Giant Magic Feat can be taken now and retrained out later since you won't be using it with Creation/Fabricate. Precasting and holding the Charge to Shocking Touch means you have an opening 4d6+IntMod Touch Attack for at least three out of four Encounters per day.

Which is great until you get ambushed.  And if there are multiple enemies you get to sit in the corner contemplating your poor life choices.

A Greatsword swinging 18 Str Meleer deals 13 damage so you're already dealing more than mundanes with a better hit chance (touch based). But say you want to take another step in, Iron Will and Reserves of Strength via Flaws brings this to 7d6+IntMod thanks to breaking die caps, now you're dealing Ubercharger damage as a Touch Attack for probably all four Encounters (and said ACF'ed to holy hell Barbarian has Frenzy for only a single Encounter).

Which postulates the use of flaws, which is something I've almost never seen used off these boards.  And "more damage" does not solve the problem of getting to do One Big Thing at the beginning of the encounter and then sitting around without even the option to burn another sleep.

Level 4 rolls around, the Beguiler gets his Glitterdust. Yeahee, he can has a Save-vs-Blind for 4 rounds, hits a 10ft area. Utility support of revealing hidden creatures (like a torch) or Invisible ones (like that Pixie because everything else auto-loses Invisibility when they attack). The Warmage also gets a Save-vs-Blind, Pyrotechnics. Nearly the same Duration (avg 3.5) but trades in needing a torch or candle to center on for to duodectuplet the affected area (120ft vs 10ft). Additionally, you can choose to deny the Will Saves against Blind and use the Spell to create a 20ft cloud that negates vision and instead they Save against a -4 penalty to Str/Dex. Oh, and without Feats he deals 28+ damage per round now (Scorching Ray) which is more than an Ubercharger without Rage so you can already retrain those Feats out.

28 damage coming from....
Scorching Ray is on average 20 (4d6).  How are you getting a +8 int mod on this?  How are you getting the party out of the 120 foot area and moving the fire source to the targets in the same round?

Level 6 rolls around and the Beguiler gets Save-vs-Slow and opponents have to choose between Attacking or Moving, awesome right? The Warmage has Gust of Wind to move things about and counter fog spells, Poison's Ability damage, Sleet Storm for superior-Grease, and Stinking Cloud's Slow-but-you-never-get-to-choose-to-attack (ie it's better than Slow). He also had Shatter two levels ago which can be used to negate a Cleric's Spellcasting, a Ubercharger's damage, or well anything else you can think of.

So by "first quarter", I think you mean level one. And under the circumstances that the Warmage's one-hit kills is depreciated when you have one to two other party members capable of doing such as well.

You mean besides Deep Slumber and the no-save images?  You know, to do instead of slow?  I mean, the Beguiler can throw out a major image of say, a wall of fire and trap all the bad guys, while informing the party ahead of time that most walls of fire are fake and you should shoot through them.  Hell you can trap most of the crap that's immune to enchantment in an image of your choice.  I'd also like to see you shatter things such as natural weapons,psionics, or spell-like abilities. 

It's kind of telling that to make the warmage work you need a small pile of campaign-specific feats and optional rules, while a beguiler can be played out of the PHB2.

[Rebel7284]

Pretty sure SorO is trolling ...

[akalsaris]

The [sanctified] spell list from BoED is a very, very big deal for the Healer, IMO. It gives a number of options that they otherwise have issues with, such as flight, direct damage, and imposing status effects on opponents. It's almost worth a dip in binder for Naberius, though ultimately I would probably rely on lots of lesser restorations as needed.

I like the idea to duo up the healer and the warmage!  I think it would be a fun case to optimize.

 

[SorO_Lost]

Like how Implosion doesn't work on most of the creatures that are immune to Dominate Monster, or how that save bonus in Dominate Person isn't cumulative.

Implosion works on anything with a corporeal body. This includes vampires (undead), Animated Trees (plants), and Warforged (constructs). And I don't even know what your talking about cumulative. It's a resave with a +2 bonus, as I started and I did not state more.

The problem with charm is that it's open ended, ... Same with dominate, it depends on how you interpret "against it's nature".

Indeed, it's dependance on DM leniency is one of it's greatest weaknesses.

Also the HD caps due decrease the usefulness of the lower level death Spells, however Versatile Spellcaster allows you to access them two levels lower which extends their usefulness. And form Cloudkill on, they as mass killers. In a multi-opponent Encounter, the creatures are supposed to be lower level than you, and these Spells wipe all of your opponents out.

Point taken.  I guess the Beguiler is going to have to go cry in the corner with his access to mirror image.

Exactly. Round 1, Warmage attempts to win. Beguiler takes care of him self. 

Ok, put up or shut up.  I'd like to see this proof.

(click to show/hide)

All quotes per PHB.

A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.

Obviously, not the Spell List.

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to bards and wizards), which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
...
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for attaining a new level, provided that it is of the right spell level. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

A spell off of another List is still a Sorcerer/Wizard Spell.

Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards), which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192). A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.
...
While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177).
...
Spellbooks: A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells (see Preparing Wizard Spells, page 177). She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory. A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, page 57) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice.

In the top it's the same deal against, "Wizard Spell" is not equivalent to "Wizard Spell List." The green marker is just to show an oddity, preparing/learning is utterly devoid of wizard spell in where in it forcing you to take intent/FAQ. The last section deliberately avoids using the List, a Wizard that banned Evocation does not have Flare as a Wizard Spell and thus cannot use the Wizard's List of Cantrips.

Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).
...
Use a Scroll: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. For instance, to cast web (a 2nd-level wizard spell) from a scroll, you would need a Use Magic Device check result of 23 or better, since the minimum caster level for web is 3rd level. See the Dungeon Master’s Guide for more information on scrolls.

If it's a Wizard based Spell, Emulate Int. It does refer to Web as a Wizard Spell as part of the default assumption. Like if a Sorcerer made a Scroll the caster level would have to be one higher (cl4 for web, not 3), but all printed items everywhere use the Wizard's CL rate. By default Items/SLAs go Wizard>Sorcerer>Cleric>Druid>The_Rest.

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire: ... With the DM’s permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54). For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0- level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook.

Again, the List is something else entirely. A Wizard Spell is simply one you can cast using your Wizard Spellcasting.

This is also why a Sorcerer/Silver Pyromancer doesn't get to use Battle Blessing. He adds the Paladin's Spell List to his Sorcerer Spellcasting, they follow all the rules of a Sorcerer Spell. This is also how the Archivist tweaks out his Spells Known, or how a Runestaff can be so potent. The terms are not synonymous by original intent.

Also warmages don't actually get any advanced learnings past 16th level, when they can learn up to 8th level spells, so no Iceberg.

Spells: When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage’s spell list.
Advanced Learning: The spell must be a wizard spell of the evocation school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the warmage already knows.
Via Versatile Spellcaster, a 16th level Warmage Knows all his 9th level Spells.

Also fyi, the Beguiler can get in on the Versatile Spellcaster action too. So I guess you learned a new Optimization trick today.

Two-Weapon Fighting comes online at level one, as does Whirling Frenzy.

WF is 1/day (already addressed), TWF also lowers a Barbarian's damage at the first level. At 18 Str a Greatsword deals 13 (2d6+6) vs a Mace's (1d8+4). The Barbarian has to hit with both weapons at a -2 penalty to deal 12.5. The melee oriented Warmage example given for lulz sake deals 1d8+7 (11.5) & 1d6+7 (10.5) for 22 damage or 1d8+10 (14.5) Slam-Only.

The Warblade example is of course correct. Warblades are above mundane par, they are able to perform quite well and keep up with Spellcasters.

Which is great until you get ambushed.  And if there are multiple enemies you get to sit in the corner contemplating your poor life choices.

Meaningless. It's weakness is it's inability to be cast in combat, not worrying about an Ambush, and you should have gone with that so I can repeat the point on CRs being lower to maintain the same EL so multiple opponents are killed with smaller Spells.

Heck you can cast a Touch Spell, prop your arm up, and sleep through the night. Your first Shocking Touch of the day doesn't even have to use today's Spell Slots. It's a joybuzzer on crack, and it's awesome like that.

Which postulates the use of flaws, which is something I've almost never seen used off these boards.  And "more damage" does not solve the problem of getting to do One Big Thing at the beginning of the encounter and then sitting around without even the option to burn another sleep.

Excellent point I never thought to address. The Warmage's damage stacks with everything the Party is doing, he can also choose to do something. A Beguiler that sticks to casting Sleep, Color Spray, Slow, and the like has nothing offensively to do once their Spell is successful even through their opponent is still alive. Unless they voluntary choose an even more pathetic Save-or-Suck to waste time stacking them.

Scorching Ray is on average 20 (4d6).  How are you getting a +8 int mod on this?  How are you getting the party out of the 120 foot area and moving the fire source to the targets in the same round?

How are you getting 20? O.o
3.5*4=14. 28 assumes two rays were fired. Which is also a mistake on my part, Feat-less you don't get two Rays at the 4th level. You should have gone with that. And I presume is fires outside of the torch in your hand aren't super common, the 120ft range is because the center of your Spell is going to be down the hallway or on the Orc running towards the water bucket after you set him on fire. But anyway, whose reaching for what at this point? You're actually complaining the Spell is too big, there is no such thing.

You mean besides Deep Slumber <- Greater Sleep, which we've spoken of. and the no-save images?

If I put up a wall in your house do you really think you wouldn't notice it? You'd probably tap on it asking where this comes from. Poof, you know it's an illusion (yep, you are right it's no-save...) and everyone near by gets to Save. At +4.

Even  a Silent Image of a badassed creature walking near them is subjected to the auto-Listen Checks by everyone in the area forcing you to limit your self to images of Incorporeal ghosts and shadows which just makes them grab the Cleric. Because you clearly need the mooks to increase their numbers with Spellcasters.

It's dependance on DM leniency is one of it's greatest weaknesses.

Pretty sure SorO is trolling ...

I find the rebuttals humorous and I'm not taking things seriously. - Hell, I'm offing build tips to him at this point. - Does that really count?

[Snowbluff]

For posterity, Undead are automatically immune to Fortitude saves. So are Constructs. Implosion neither implies nor states an exception as far as I can tell. Plants are immune, but I was referring to undead, which are far more common.

If Dominate's bonus isn't cumulative, it's pretty irrelevant. It's a Day/Level Hold at worst. Honestly, I was hoping you were implying otherwise, since the point you made would have been at least cogent.

As for Mithril Bucklers, Githcraft and Feycraft are much cheaper.

I'm the sort of the guy to step it up to Mind Rape or an Ice Assassin. The warmage stuff you came up with is pretty cool, though.

[SorO_Lost]

For posterity, Undead are automatically immune to Fortitude saves. So are Constructs. Implosion neither implies nor states an exception as far as I can tell. Plants are immune, but I was referring to undead, which are far more common.

Oooh, I'm blurring there again. On the Dungeons & Dragons Online side of things Implosion is clear cut to work on Undead. However, yeah in the D&D rule set it's ambiguous.

Control Winds and Gust of wind doesn't state "Saving Throw: Fortitude negates/partial (object)", would you say Undead are immune to being knocked over from high winds, in effect immune to weather conditions, or the notation of TORNADO level effects tearing up rooftops validate it working on undead? Chill Touch is another such Spell, no notation it works on object but it works on Undead. Are Undead immune to Orbs of Acid, Electricity, Fire or Sonic (all fortitude partial entries) or do we allow it because you can attack structures with those Spells even if they don't say such? With the context the Saving Throw entry it's self is neither confirmation nor denial look at the Spell. Implosion is neither a [Death] Effect nor follows suit to Circle of Death, Finger of Death, and Slay Living which only work on Living Creatures. It intentionally bypasses Deathward and it intentionally works on Corporeal Creatures. If we claim it doesn't work are we ignoring intent and being RAWtarded? Who knows. It's something the FAQ should have addressed imho.

Either way, I did get confused over DDO and should have listed something like: Bat Swarm (mindless), Animated Trees (plants), and Warforged with Protection from X & Mindblank (construct) to make the point and avoided this entirely. Implosion is not at all limited as Dominate is.

If Dominate's bonus isn't cumulative, it's pretty irrelevant.

No, it's huge. Say you had a DC 25 Dominate and hit someone with a +10 Will Save. This is a pretty easy 75%/25% success/failure. Now you order them to do something against their nature (such as stop fighting their opponents) and they resave with a +2 Bonus which is 65%/35%. Collectively, however your opponent has attempted both a 25% & 35% chances of success and while the odds per attempt never change, the expected trend does. At this point your opponent has a 60% chance of Saving against your Stop-Fighting Spell and your Save DC is a full 15 points higher than their Save Bonus.

It's the same case why Phantasmal Killer is considered the weakest Save-or-Die in D&D. It's not the spread over Fort & Will since more often than not one value is considerably less than the other, it's that two Saves increases and can up to double their chances of making it. Like even against a weak Con'ed Wizard, that 5% success for a natural 20 is still worth +5% more than any other Save-or-Die's odds.

[Waazraath]

Don't want to get into the argument, but are there 1st level whirling frenzy barbarians without 'extra rage'?

[Snowbluff]

DDO can mess me up, sometimes.

I think orbs work because the save is for a separate effect. You still get splashed by acid, but an undead wouldn't be nauseated.

If that's true, by RAW gust of wind doesn't work on Undead, which is funny. RAW is weird like that. Other weather effect are usually like it being too hot or cold, which wouldn't harm an undead. Implosion might not work for the same reason an undead doesn't turn to dust over time or wear down.

Chill Touch is a specific exception.

As for Dominate, you only need the initial order to go through to bring someone out of a fight, like telling them to do a jig, fall asleep, or to go fetch the groceries.

[SorO_Lost]

Don't want to get into the argument, but are there 1st level whirling frenzy barbarians without 'extra rage'?

Every single build ever submitted on these forums for some reason. *shrugs*

Honestly it probably comes back to Feat tax and we deal in Optimization. Like for me I look at it as adding Extra Rage doesn't even bring your values up to 100% (3 out 4 encounters per day). It's vastly superior to take something like Headlong Rush and deal double damage through out the day.

FYI since I'm semi-aimless here. Whirling Frenzy also has as self depreciation. You cannot use Rage or anything similar to it at the same time. This includes Rage (the spell), Frenzy Berserker's Frenzy, Blood Band's Blood Rage, Marruspawn Rage Zyme's Berserker Rage, and Battlewine as they are all effects based on aggression, and mechanically buff you up at the cost of personal survivability.

As for Dominate, you only need the initial order to go through to bring someone out of a fight, like telling them to do a jig, fall asleep, or to go fetch the groceries.

Still falls to problems ordering them to stop fighting does. Falling asleep while someone else is trying to cut your head off is against everyone's nature

Dominate (and charm) work better out of combat and in conjunction with the Social Skills. Convince them you're here to help or it's better to obey than risk a sword in the throat. If you've Dominated someone, take the moment to explain how helping you works out of the best and that they can turn a decent profit this way. Instances like that means you're not threatening them for Charm's +5 or Dominate's resaves. Unfortunately, instances like that also explain how the Skills are better than the Spells. I mean honestly Glibness, Bluff Ranks, and high Charisma lets you toss out none-magical Suggestions as a Free-Action. Which is a trump card I don't think I'm going to get to bring up at the current rate. All well.

[Snowbluff]

Is that an argument against the Beguiler, because they can do all of that? They have social skills, Int based casting with a large base skill points, and even Glibness as a spell before Bards get it.

[SorO_Lost]

Is that an argument against the Beguiler, because they can do all of that?

Combination Charisma-based Casters pull it off sooner due to the synergy and the Warmage expands to cover a chunk of the Beguiler's role while the Beguiler only just gains usability.

Requires higher level discussions through.

[Snowbluff]

Being a charisma based caster is only going to put you a few points ahead. Beguilers can expand there list in almost as many ways as a Warmage (some would argue more). Beguilers have the sorcerer spell slots, so they usually have enough for a 10/level spell before a domination encounter.

Beguiler skill points are much higher to the point where trying to expand the warmage's chassis to meet the capability of the Beguiler would cost significant resources. Warmages have neither bluff nor diplomacy on their significantly inferior skill list. With the exception of a difference in charisma scores (24+, depending on level), the Beguiler will always have the edge when it comes to social skill use before spells.

[SorO_Lost]

A. Being a charisma based caster is only going to put you a few points ahead. B. Beguilers can expand there list in almost as many ways as a Warmage (some would argue more). C. the Beguiler will always have the edge when it comes to social skill use before spells.

A. "a few points" lol.

B. That's a big and bold No. Undoubtedly you're thinking Shadowcraft Mage but other Spell List addition choices allow the Warmage to take levels in that as well. Oh wait, *smacks head* that's right the Warmage doesn't have to use PrCs or Feats to enter it, silly me. The same book that printed the Beguiler also Eclectic Learning, inherently a Warmage can learn any 8th level Spell of any School on top of the same PrC/Feat/Item choices the Beguiler can make. The SpC also allows the Warmage to swap his Spells out with anything printed in that book, and there isn't even a School or "Wizard Spell" limitation on that either in case there was something shiny off the Druid List you liked.

C. The notation on social skills was actually meant for Beguiler, but also to highlight that a Rogue is an even higher skilled user of Suggestion (and through it charm/dominate, "you are my friend!") than the Beguiler and they can't even cast Spells.

[Snowbluff]

1. 12 or higher. A solid, numerical value. The top end for a Warmage for a practical game is ~36 (20 + 5 inherent + 5 level + 6 enhancement).  A Beguiler investing 14 Cha is still ahead, if only marginally.

2. Requires heavy DM fiat to alter a spell list, regardless. That's like allowing RAW alteration of a sorcerer list. It's even listed as not being advised. I really can't assume that for forum talk. Not that it's a point against Beguiler, since a close inspection of the text reveals that you should follow the same rules for similiar classes that are unlisted.

I was actually referring to Eclectic Learning for the favor of the Warmage, but that comes with a spell level penalty (7th level spells in reality). Beguiler gets 9th level spells through advanced learning for either of some of the best spells in the game. Most spells can actually be gotten for either class with little effort with feats, though.

3. Rogue is worse than Beguiler in terms of skills. At worse, the Beguiler (Int, Con, Cha, Dex) has similar Cha to the rogue (Dex, Con, Int, Cha). The rogue has no inherent bonuses to the skill. Factotum is the only class that is really superior in terms of skills.

[Captnq]

People forget, that anyone can add Sanctified or Corrupted spells to ANY spell list, so trotting out those spells as an advantage for any spell list is kinda silly.

(click to show/hide)

Charm Person: Makes one person your friend.
While touted as a Save-or-Suck, it's really a non-combat spell. In combat the addition +4 penalty tends to skew things.

Color Spray: Knocks unconscious, blinds, and/or stuns 1d6 weak creatures.
Okay save or suck.

Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Secret Doors: Reveals hidden doors within 60 ft.
Disguise Self: Changes your appearance.
Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft.
Hypnotism: Fascinates 2d4 HD worth of creatures.
Okay save or suck.

Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
Nice buff

Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Nice Battlefield control spell.

Rouse: Awakens creatures in area.
Silent Image: Creates minor illusion of your design.
Sleep: Puts 4 HD of creatures into magical slumber.
Good save or suck, but quickly becomes long in the teeth.

Undetectable Alignment: Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Whelm: Deal 1d6 non-lethal damage +1d6/2 levels above 1st (max 5d6).
Okay attack, but useless against undead.

We have a nice spread of spells, but they seem to focus on handling low HD critters and humanoids. Very quickly this will get left behind as spells that get trotted out when you run out of other options.

(click to show/hide)

Accuracy: Doubles weapon’s range increment.
Burning Hands: 1d4/level fire damage (max 5d4).
Chill Touch: One touch/level deals 1d6 damage and possibly 1 Str damage.
Fist of Stone: Gain +6 Str and natural slam attack.
Getting more attacks is nice. As pointed out elsewhere, makes you better at being a barbarian then a barbarian.

Hail of Stone: Rain of stone deals 1d4/level damage (max 5d4).
Never miss, no SR, no ST attack. Nuff said.

Magic Missile: 1d4+1 damage; +1 missile per two levels above 1st (max 5).
Never miss, no ST attack, SR okay. Great for delivering fun metamagic feats like, fell drain, that sort of thing.

Orb of Acid, Lesser: Ranged touch attack deals 1d8 acid damage + 1d8/two levels beyond 1st (max 5d8).
Orb of Cold, Lesser: Ranged touch attack deals 1d8 cold damage + 1d8/two levels beyond 1st (max 5d8).
Orb of Electricity, Lesser: Ranged touch attack deals 1d8 electricity damage + 1d8/two levels beyond 1st (max 5d8).
Orb of Fire, Lesser: Ranged touch attack deals 1d8 fire damage + 1d8/two levels beyond 1st (max 5d8).
Orb of Sound, Lesser: Ranged touch attack deals 1d6 sonic damage + 1d6/two levels beyond 1st (max 5d6).
Touch attack, no SR, no ST. remains useful for quite some time.

Shocking Grasp: Touch delivers 1d6/level electricity damage (max 5d6).
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.
And now your true Strike Never misses.

The warmage's first level spells are from the list of spells I would consider making a mailman from.

(click to show/hide)

Blinding Color Surge: Blind subject for 1 round, gain invisibility.
Blur: Attacks miss subject 20% of the time.
Daze Monster: Living creature of 6 HD or less loses next action.
Detect Thoughts: Allows listening to surface thoughts.
Fog Cloud: Fog obscures vision.
Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.
Hypnotic Pattern: Fascinates (2d4 + level) HD of creatures.
Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Knock: Opens locked or magically sealed door.
Minor Image: As silent image, plus some sound.
Mirror Image: Creates decoy duplicates of you (1d4 +1 per three levels, max 8).
Misdirection: Misleads divinations for one creature or object.
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Silence: Negates sound in 20-ft. radius.
Spider Climb: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.
Stay the Hand: Change subject creature’s attitude to helpful for 1 round.
Touch of Idiocy: Subject takes 1d6 points of Int, Wis, and Cha damage.
Vertigo: Subject creature must succeed on a DC 10 Balance check to move each round.
Whelming Blast: 15-foot cone deals 1d6 non-lethal damage/2 levels (max 5d6).

I'll avoid the breakdown this time and just sum up. We're moving into Illusions, Will Dependant save-or-suck, and the one gem, Touch of idiocy. Ability damage can really ruin someone's day, especially if you are able to choose what kind. Alas, without some sort of follow up, you can never take someone below 1, so it becomes a spellcaster debuf, and less a save-or-die. The bebuiler is clearly focuing on avoiding combat and being a combat stopper, but the beguiler is dependent on having friends or avoid combat entirely. With charm person you can get those friends.

(click to show/hide)

Blades of Fire: Your melee weapons deal +1d6 fire damage for 1 round.
Continual Flame: Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Fire Trap: Opened object deals 1d4 +1/level fire damage.
Fireburst: Adjacent subjects take 1d8/level fire damage.
Flaming Sphere: Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level.
Ice Knife: Magical shard of ice deals 2d8 cold damage plus 2 Dex damage, or deals 1d8 cold damage in 10-ft.- radius burst.
Melf’s Acid Arrow: Ranged touch attack; 2d4 damage for 1 round +1 round/three levels.
Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or choking smoke.
Scorching Ray: Ranged touch attack deals 4d6 fire damage, +1 ray/four levels (max 3).
Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Whirling Blade: Hurled slashing weapon magically attacks all foes in 60-ft. line.

Warmage brings the pain. Scorching ray breaks the 1d6/level barrier, Whirling blade hits everyone in a 60' line (if anything was begging for a sculpting rod, it's this spell), Fireburst can be sculpted into fireball and break the 1d6/level barrier. While the warmage is stuck with mailman spells, The warmage lends itself well to using metamagic to becoming very useful. A fist of stone, a true Strike, and a sculpting rod makes sure that you can choose your area and hit everyone in it.  A warmage with a few rounds could easily end an encounter by dropping everyone. Add in Greater Cleave (it IS a melee attack, folks), suddenly our warmage has a half dozen extra attacks. Unlike Whirling or Whirlwind attack, there is no limit on cleave attacks afterwards.

As a side note, as a DM I hate this spell, 2nd level? Seriously? BROKEN.

(click to show/hide)

Arcane Sight: Magical auras become visible to you.
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance: Hear or see at a distance for 1 min./level.
Crown of Veils: Gain +2 to Disguise and Hide, discharge to gain +8.
Deep Slumber: Puts 10 HD of creatures to sleep.
Dispel Magic: Cancels magical spells and effects.
Displacement: Attacks miss subject 50%.
Glibness: You gain +30 bonus on Bluff checks, and your lies can escape magical discernment.
Halt: Subject’s feet become stuck to ground.
Haste: One creature/level moves faster, +1 on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves.
Hesitate: Force subject to lose actions.
Hold Person: Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Inevitable Defeat: Subject takes 3d6 non-lethal damage/ round.
Invisibility Sphere: Makes everyone within 10 ft. invisible.
Legion of Sentinels: Ghostly swordsmen threaten a 10-foot radius, deal 1d8 damage +1/3 levels (max +5).
Major Image: As silent image, plus sound, smell and thermal effects.
Nondetection: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Slow: One subject/level takes only one action/round, –2 to AC and attack rolls.
Suggestion: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.
Vertigo Field: Creatures have 20% miss chance and possibly become nauseated.
Zone of Silence: Keeps eavesdroppers from overhearing conversations.

Okay scrying, improved sleep, glibness rocks, haste buff, save or suck hold person. Damage over Time sucks ass. Group invisibility and nondetection makes for sneaky sneakies. Slow is a nice debuff. Suggestion can be very useful. Again, we are relying on will based save or sucks, but our ability to control events outside of combat is amazing. Glibness is just awesome, add suggestion and charm person, you can have a small army of loyal flunkies to act as a meat shield. Here's the thing, get this guy alone and out numbered, He's better off running and then trying to pick his enemies off one at a time.

(click to show/hide)

Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius.
Flame Arrow: Arrows deal +1d6 fire damage.
Gust of Wind: Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Ice Storm: Hail deals 5d6 damage in cylinder 40 ft. across.
Lightning Bolt: Electricity deals 1d6/level damage.
Poison: Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Ring of Blades: Blades surround you, damaging other creatures (1d6+1/level damage).
Sleet Storm: Hampers vision and movement.
Stinking Cloud: Nauseating vapors, 1 round/level.

Oh, I was having such high hopes for Warmage. I suppose Whirling Blade is enough, eh? Fireball, ice Storm, Lightning Bolt, Blah Blah Blah. Poison ain't bad. Oh. Now I get it. You use poison with Whirling Blade. Get a weapon with assassination, Cast poison, your weapon absorbs the 1d10 con poison, you whirling blade and go for the touch attack, everyone in the area gets 1d10 poison. Well played warmage. Well played.
Ring of blades is an okay damage shield, and with a liberal DM you could sculpt it without killing yourself. Seems neat but a waste of time in my opinion. Fell drain Whirling blade with Easy Metamagic seems like a much better use for my 3rd level spots. I mean, I'm going to buff up my blade into all sorts of sick disgusting configuations and slather poison on it like lotion on a baby's rash covered ass. Whirling blade spreads out dose of poison to every target. I can't see why you would not cast it EVERY SINGLE ROUND. It never gets old.

Oh, and stinking cloud has to be one of my favorate battlefield spells. Combined with sleet stor, you can shut a group down and keep them shut down, trapped inside a fart. When does that ever get old?


CONCLUSION

Out of combat, Beguiler is a clear winner. For the RPer and long term plotter who wants to raise an army, it's a great class. However, it is heavily dependent on your campaign. For example, in my campaign, people who charm person too much, will wind up arrested. When playing a module like Rapan Athak, a straight up dungeon crawl, you are going to have to think fast and constantly. You will be dependant on your fellow party members as you buff them and they finish off your enemies for you.

The warmage's method of making friends is, "Do as I say or I will murder you." The warmage has some nasty combos that let him do what a barbarian/fighter is supposed to do ten times better then them. He can deal out unstoppable damage, and unlike the Beguiler, he really can put metamagic feats to good use. He's got battlefield control. The warmage has force multipliers. When he starts picking up magical equipment or alchemy or poison, he can take it to a whole new level, whereas the beguiler progresses in a linear fashion when you start handing out combat equipment.

Who's better? Alas, I have to say it depends on the campaign/DM. Playing with me, you are far better off with the Warmage. Not because I like them more, but because my NPCs are intelligent. The mooks carry sacks of flour to find invisible people. The mooks have code phrases they use. The mooks check to see if the co-workers are too happy.

My BBEGs read the Evil Overlord List.

If your DM plays NPCs in a vacuum and they don't learn, then Charm Person/Suggestion will allow you to move from encounter to encounter, always winning as you use the same trick over and over.

Note, I'm not saying I'm better then any other DMs. I simply have a much more vicious group of players then most. If I don't crank it up to 11, the mooks aren't even speed bumps. Since the players use obscure tricks, so do the NPCs. Your DM might be running in a setting where each village is semi-isolated. In mine, Bards wander the country side and act as Adventuring party "agents" trying to line up the next "gig". The average commoner in my campaign is much more "worldly" then your average real world Dark-Ages Commoner.

So to propery compare, you have to consider the setting. Are you in a big city? Are the NPCs used to wizards charming people all the time? Is invisibility Illegal? Well, A beguiler might have problems in Sharn. A warmage on the other hand would be a superstar, well sought after by mercenaries and very popular when he starts racking up a body count.

On the other hand, wandering the countryside away from civilization, The Beguiler is going to start accumulating friends very quickly. A warmage can only be a warlord as far as line of sight, but a beguiler could carve a nation out of chaos.

So, to sum up:

City Setting: It's a push.
Dungeon Crawl: Warmage.
Lawless anarchy: Beguiler.

[Jackinthegreen]

Since Sanctified spells can only be prepared as explicitly mentioned in the description of them on page 83 of the BoED, only prepared casters or casters with the Arcane Preparation feat (note that dndtools seems to be having issues at the time of this posting, so just check CArc pages 73 and 75) can use them.

Though in this case it'd be a wash since both beguiler and warmage can take the feat.  But to be clear, not just anyone can use sanctified spells.

[Snowbluff]

Since Sanctified spells can only be prepared as explicitly mentioned in the description of them on page 83 of the BoED, only prepared casters or casters with the Arcane Preparation feat (note that dndtools seems to be having issues at the time of this posting, so just check CArc pages 73 and 75) can use them.

Though in this case it'd be a wash since both beguiler and warmage can take the feat.  But to be clear, not just anyone can use sanctified spells.

True. Every way of adding spells is a wash, since they all apply to either class. I've already pointed this out.

Some other options:
Versatile Spellcaster + Magical Training.
Arcane Disciple
Bloodline Feats (Dragon Compendium)
Mother Cyst

For dungeon crawls, keep in mind Beguiler doubles as a mundane trap finder.

[Kethrian]

@Captnq: Just wanna remind you, Sculpting spells like Fireburst is an exercise in futility.  A spell's area cannot exceed its range, so go ahead and turn the spell's area into a 20' rad burst, where any part of the area which is greater than 10' from the caster simply does not manifest.  Also, how do you use Whirling Blade on a Fist of Stone?  Whirling Blade only works on held weapons, not natural or unarmed.  Also, you only get one attack against each creature in the area, so you only get to cleave against foes adjacent to the caster.  The Poison spell is a touch attack spell, not something that is put on a weapon, so it does absolute dick with Whirling Blade, and wouldn't work past the 1st enemy hit even if you did manage to make it somehow work on a wielded weapon.

[SorO_Lost]

1. Sculpt Spell trumps the Range entry, not that I condone Sculpted Fireburst as an optimization choice.
2. Whirling Blade's best usage is tossing Colossal Sharktooth Staffs to provoke book throwing.
3. Indeed you cannot use the Poison Spell like Captnq stated.