Author Topic: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)  (Read 22728 times)

Offline Snowbluff

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2014, 06:08:59 PM »
Whirling Blade is pretty good.

Speaking of mental stats to boost damage, how about Knowledge Devotion? Do Warmages have the knowledge skills for that?

You can sculpt spell the Whirling blade. Not because it's good, but because it's cool.
Fell Drain.
Snowcasting, Substitution, etc for Born of 3 Thunders.
Get some fancy enhancements.
Just be a fancy blade thrower guy.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2014, 06:26:06 PM »
Speaking of mental stats to boost damage, how about Knowledge Devotion? Do Warmages have the knowledge skills for that?
No.

Break Metamagic if you want uber amounts of damage. Fire Shield (+friendly fire) and Wreath of Flame are the "defacto" ways to go. And Stormcasters make your DM cry.

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2014, 08:39:06 PM »
1. Sculpt Spell trumps the Range entry, not that I condone Sculpted Fireburst as an optimization choice.
2. Whirling Blade's best usage is tossing Colossal Sharktooth Staffs to provoke book throwing. ;)
3. Indeed you cannot use the Poison Spell like Captnq stated.

1. Proof?  All the feat says is that it changes the area of a spell, and nothing about range at all.
Quote from: PHB, pg 175
If any portion of the spell's area wold extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

2. And how are you going to have a colossal caster to use the staff?  Plus, you know, deal with all those penalties for grappling so many creatures?
3. At least we agree on something!
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2014, 09:38:29 PM »
1. Proof?  All the feat says is that it changes the area of a spell, and nothing about range at all.
2. And how are you going to have a colossal caster to use the staff?  Plus, you know, deal with all those penalties for grappling so many creatures?
3. At least we agree on something!
1. Contradiction. The Spell's Effect is based on the Area's Size here and this section goes in detail about the affected area noting LoE/LoS, how to draw the lines on the table top map, and how to determine who or what is affected by the Spell or not. This is the detailed entry, thus holds priority over any other contradictions.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.
Area trumps Range for Bursts, Emanations, Spreads, Spheres, and Cones. Only Line acknowledges the Spell's Range, and you can see how Sculpt Spell feels about that, which leaves Cylinder's unsided entry. Personally, in favor of handing that one over per intent.

2. Actually the point isn't you lost your Dex to AC, Sharktooth Staffs auto-hit when you use them to Grapple. It creates rules wtf where you chuck a staff across the room and it proceeds to somehow Grapple and beat the crap out of everyone simultaneously even through you can't even swing the weapon in the first place. Hence also the mention of book throwing, I not actually suggesting you ever try this in a game. Ever. But it is a cool rules quark to remind you how odd things can get at times.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 09:51:01 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Snowbluff

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2014, 10:11:31 PM »
quark


Anyway, the only applicable Knowledge for Warmage being Arcane is pretty bleak. Even with the bonus skill from Knowledge Devotion, you're short a few skills. I like to go with 5 (Arcane, Planes, Dungeon, Religion, and Local).
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2014, 11:15:55 PM »
1. Contradiction. The Spell's Effect is based on the Area's Size here and this section goes in detail about the affected area noting LoE/LoS, how to draw the lines on the table top map, and how to determine who or what is affected by the Spell or not. This is the detailed entry, thus holds priority over any other contradictions.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.
Area trumps Range for Bursts, Emanations, Spreads, Spheres, and Cones. Only Line acknowledges the Spell's Range, and you can see how Sculpt Spell feels about that, which leaves Cylinder's unsided entry. Personally, in favor of handing that one over per intent.

It still does not say anything about areas that exceed range get to keep going, only that you shape a spell as such.  And so, if any of said shape exceeds the range that portion of the area is wasted, as per the range rules, where such interaction is explicitly defined.

2. Actually the point isn't you lost your Dex to AC, Sharktooth Staffs auto-hit when you use them to Grapple. It creates rules wtf where you chuck a staff across the room and it proceeds to somehow Grapple and beat the crap out of everyone simultaneously even through you can't even swing the weapon in the first place. Hence also the mention of book throwing, I not actually suggesting you ever try this in a game. Ever. But it is a cool rules quark to remind you how odd things can get at times.

You haven't read the weapon's description in a long time, have you?  The weapon doesn't auto grapple anything, it allows you a free grapple attempt against anyone you hit with the weapon.  Whirling Blade also requires you to make a melee attack against each creature in range, so you need to be able to wield it to use it for the spell.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2014, 12:09:05 AM »
@Captnq: Just wanna remind you, Sculpting spells like Fireburst is an exercise in futility.  A spell's area cannot exceed its range, so go ahead and turn the spell's area into a 20' rad burst, where any part of the area which is greater than 10' from the caster simply does not manifest.  Also, how do you use Whirling Blade on a Fist of Stone?  Whirling Blade only works on held weapons, not natural or unarmed.  Also, you only get one attack against each creature in the area, so you only get to cleave against foes adjacent to the caster.  The Poison spell is a touch attack spell, not something that is put on a weapon, so it does absolute dick with Whirling Blade, and wouldn't work past the 1st enemy hit even if you did manage to make it somehow work on a wielded weapon.

I simply do not wish to get into the breaking range limits argument again. I have stated my position elsewhere, google it.

As for Fist of stone:
"You transform one of your hands into a mighty fist of living stone, gaining a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength for the purposes of attack rolls, grapple checks, or breaking and crushing items. "

Nothing says you have to use the fist of stone. I can take the +6 to attack rolls for any weapon I choose. For example, I carry around a solid gold Oversized balanced fullblade that I hurl after using truestrike. +6 to strength as a 1st level spell beats out +4 as a 2nd. I don't care what the duration is. Especially when I can apply x1.5 damage by hurling a scimitar about with two hands.

As for poison spell...
"Calling upon the venomous powers of natural predators, you infect the subject with a horrible poison by making a successful melee touch attack."

Assassination:
"In addition, the weapon seems to eagerly drink in poison. The wielder never risks poisoning herself when applying poison to an assassination weapon, and the save DC of any poison applied to the weapon increases by an amount equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus."

Assassination placed on a battle gauntlet or ward cestus, it will carry the poison as a touch attack. I didn't say you could combine it with a normal attack. You know, people don't read the rules very much. Touch attacks are an art form, really. There's so many ways you can use your weapon for touch attacks it's not funny. 3.0 interactions with 3.5 rules often results in f-ed up crap like this.

I also said Whirling Blade is broken as written. It should NEVER allow you to poison a whole crowd, but it does. RAI clearly has every other example stopping poison from working in this fashion. But I'm not here to talk about right or wrong. I'm talking about the RAW of the matter.

I also said it depends on your DM. I don't allow whirling blade as written.

Quote
You hurl a weapon held at the time of casting, and it magically attacks all enemies along a line to the extent of the spell’s range. You make a normal melee attack, just as if you were attacking with the weapon in melee, against each foe in the weapon’s path, but you can choose to substitute your Intelligence modifier or your Charisma modifier (as appropriate for your spellcasting class) for your Strength modifier on the weapon’s attack rolls and damage rolls. Even if your base attack bonus would normally give you multiple attacks, a whirling blade gets only one attack (at your best attack bonus) against each target. The weapon deals damage just as if you had swung it in melee, including any bonuses you might have from ability scores or feats. No matter how many targets your weapon hits or misses, it instantly and unerringly returns to your hand after attempting the last of its attacks.

That's the broken part. All those other "hit area effect melee attack things" has you roll for each target one at a time. Therefore poison only works on the first target. But the Whirling Blade Spell is "make A normal melee attack." Single attack. One roll.

Sentence structure, in this case, is a bitch. It should read, "You make a separate melee attack" Because you are making more then one melee attack. However, since you only make one attack, the roll applies against everyone equally. Which also means any effects from that one blow affects everyone equally. It might hit or miss based on the AC of the targets, but everyone still gets bitch slapped with the same roll. It also means one attack, and therefore everything on that one attack affects everyone it successfully hits.

Put blister oil on my sword and everyone gets hit with it. Poison, same thing. It should only affect the first target, but there is only one roll.

RAI? Hell no. RAW, sorry, yes. Bad place to put a comma.

And the whirlwind feat says that you can't use cleave afterwards. They don't say that in the spell, only that you can't hit the same target twice, so you'll have to use your cleave on other targets. Well, if I drop 12 people, I get 12 attacks on the guy next to me? That's screwed up.

As written, it's borked. There are many ways to twist that spell. Even if you nerf it back down to how they intended it, it's still fairly kick ass. I just need to do things like get a sizing viper weapon so I can throw a Giant Poisonous snake at everyone. That solves having to bother with unarmed strike touch attack weapons. If it was 5th, I'd be okay with it, but a 2nd level spell? Just broken.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2014, 12:26:58 AM »
Holy hell.

SCULPT SPELL
You can modify an area spell by changing the area’s shape to a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), a 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, a ball (20- foot radius spread), or a 120-foot line. A sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape.

Read that part. Now. Here's how it works. Sculpt Spell Over rides range because the shape and it's area of effect is the new normal. I take a cone of cold and turn it into a line. The spell acts like it always does, except it's now a 120' line. If the range would limit the shape, it fails to limit the shape, because sculpt spell says, "F**k You, Range! I'm Sculpt Spell. I'm gonna exceed your limits because I damn well feel like it. Now suck my hundred and twenty foot line of cold, pussy." Because any attempts by the spell to impose any limits on the area FAILS.

Sculpt Spell has a bit of an attitude, you see. Used to be a sailor.

Now I'm DONE. I've had it with this time wasting argument.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 12:29:28 AM by Captnq »
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Offline Kethrian

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2014, 01:18:50 AM »
Googling 'Captnq range area' does not provide anything useful.  So I do not know where or what your position about range arguments is.

The strength bonus from Fist of Stone, yeah that's a good reason for the spell in your combo.  But the way you had worded it, no other weapon was mentioned, leaving the easy to make assumption that you were using the slam attack the spell granted as your weapon, which I pointed out does not work.

The Assassination weapon enchantment works on poisons applied to the weapon, not with the Poison spell delivered as a touch attack through a weapon should you find a way to do so.

Quote
You make a normal melee attack, just as if you were attacking with the weapon in melee, against each foe in the weapon’s path
Quote
you only get one attack against each creature in the area

That right there, taken straight from your quote, is twice where the spell description says you make an attack for each creature, not every creature.  The problem is you are misreading a word, not a poorly placed comma.  The sentence structure from the first quote quite clearly states that "a normal melee attack" is made "against each foe".  The second quote further states that there is one, and only one attack made per creature.  Ergo, you cannot poison a whole crowd with Whirling Blade unless you can first find a way to get a poison to last through multiple attacks, as you are clearly rolling the d20 once for each creature.  Now, because the first part says "foe" instead of creature, you could argue that the spell will not attack allies in the area, though the second bit seems to contradict it, making that a grey area of the spell, requiring a judgement call to adjudicate.

Yes, getting 12 cleaves on the guy(s) next to you may seem screwed up, but considering you paid the price with 3 feats that are substantially less than stellar in nearly every other aspect for a warmage, I'd say you paid your dues.

As for Sculpt Spell, notice it's modifying the shape of the area of a spell, and mentions nothing about fixing a range to allow the spell's area to exceed it?  Yeah.  A 120' line area is a 120' line, even when the range is 10'.  The 110' of the line beyond that 10' range is still wasted, but that doesn't stop the area from being a 120' line.  I'll quote the PHB again, just to give you the explicit rule that Sculpt Spell's description in no way counteracts:
Quote from: PHB, pg 175
If any portion of the spell's area wold extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

And, just for further clarification, I'll add what the Rules Compendium has to say on the matter:
Quote from: RC, pg 126
A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you at which the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this point, that area is wasted.

It seems to agree, word-for-word.  Nothing in the area section of either book, nor the description of Sculpt Spell, contradict this rule.  You cast a Fireball and have its origin point at the very edge of your range?  You get a little less than half of the area filling with fire, where the area does not exceed the range.  You Sculpt a Fireburst into a 60' cone?  You get a 10' cone filled with fire, the rest is wasted.  Go ahead, find an actual rule quote that clearly states area that exceeds range isn't wasted.  I've found two for you that clearly state otherwise.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2014, 07:51:47 AM »
Now I'm DONE. I've had it with this time wasting argument.
No kidding, it is getting old. idk, maybe I slept on the wrong side of the bed last night.

@Kethrian,
The weapon doesn't auto grapple anything, it allows you a free grapple attempt against anyone you hit with the weapon.
No kidding. "Sharktooth Staffs auto-hit when you use them to Grapple." is exactly what I said, you misread and bitched about it. In your effort to do nothing but drag people down into the sewer to join you, you latched onto the assumption the Spellcaster would always fail their Grapple Checks. I don't have the time or inclination to run a giant tangent educating you on how it's possible for PCs to successfully Grapple other Creatures.

Also, your argument is Sculpt Spell, Recaster, even the goddamn Archmage abysmally fail at the very things they were wrote out to do. So I'm going to push the stfu button. A Monk isn't proficient with Unarmed Strike, no one gives a shit. Several Feats & PrCs are broken according to Kethrian, no one gives a shit. They are supposed to work like they intend to. *wipes his hands*

Offline Kethrian

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2014, 11:33:17 AM »
Then please enlighten me how a colossal sharktooth staff can be wielded to make attacks, including for Whirling Blade?  I notice the staff's description says you have to hit with it before you get to grapple, and that you have to be the wielder of the staff to get the auto-damage in subsequent rounds.  PHB states that you can't wield a weapon that is too big.  Can't wield the weapon, can't get auto-damage, plain and simple, or so I read.

I don't see what you think my argument has to do with Archmage.  He doesn't get anything that alters a spell's area other than putting "holes" in it so certain creatures don't get affected.  As for Recaster, parts 3&4 of Metamorphic Spell (Space) are all that there is to worry about, identical to Sculpt Spell.  And a monk isn't not proficient with unarmed strikes, either.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2014, 01:50:23 PM »
It seems to agree, word-for-word.  Nothing in the area section of either book, nor the description of Sculpt Spell, contradict this rule.  You cast a Fireball and have its origin point at the very edge of your range?  You get a little less than half of the area filling with fire, where the area does not exceed the range.  You Sculpt a Fireburst into a 60' cone?  You get a 10' cone filled with fire, the rest is wasted.  Go ahead, find an actual rule quote that clearly states area that exceeds range isn't wasted.  I've found two for you that clearly state otherwise.

"A sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape."

The specific exception overrides the general.

It is in the benefit section of the sculpt spell, not the description section of sculpt spell.
Sculpt Spell tears the eyes out of range limitations and Skull-f***s the empty sockets.

Now, using fireburst to make a ball is a bad idea, because you get caught in the blast. Use line or cone. Ball, Cylinder, or even the four squares will require you to put the point of origin at one of the four corners of the square you are in. Bad idea unless you are immune to fire, but you can still have fun with anything that has an Area line in the stat block.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2014, 01:55:58 PM »
Then please enlighten me how a colossal sharktooth staff can be wielded to make attacks, including for Whirling Blade?  I notice the staff's description says you have to hit with it before you get to grapple, and that you have to be the wielder of the staff to get the auto-damage in subsequent rounds.  PHB states that you can't wield a weapon that is too big.  Can't wield the weapon, can't get auto-damage, plain and simple, or so I read.

Yeah. Sizing in that regard don't work. Now if you had a weapon that attacked on it's own, like a flying weapon or a viper weapon, that's another story. Yeah. Giant viper weapon, nasty. Of course the BAB would suck and you lose strength bonuses to damage. But then you use int bonus to damage. Hrmm... wonder how that would work... When I have more time I'll have to look into that. Not quite sure that is RAW.
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Offline Mithril Leaf

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2014, 01:21:58 AM »
It seems to agree, word-for-word.  Nothing in the area section of either book, nor the description of Sculpt Spell, contradict this rule.  You cast a Fireball and have its origin point at the very edge of your range?  You get a little less than half of the area filling with fire, where the area does not exceed the range.  You Sculpt a Fireburst into a 60' cone?  You get a 10' cone filled with fire, the rest is wasted.  Go ahead, find an actual rule quote that clearly states area that exceeds range isn't wasted.  I've found two for you that clearly state otherwise.

"A sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape."

The specific exception overrides the general.

It is in the benefit section of the sculpt spell, not the description section of sculpt spell.
Sculpt Spell tears the eyes out of range limitations and Skull-f***s the empty sockets.

Not commenting on anything else going on in here, but where does it say that area and shape means range and not area and shape? Because even if you change a spell's shape, you still have a range, which explicitly cannot be exceeded by the area of a spell. The SRD states that:
Quote
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.
So taking the example of fireburst, let's say you shape it into a line. What is the effect? A 120 foot line. What's the range? 5 feet still. So you get 5 feet of fireburst line. Nothing in sculpt spell says you change the range or ignore the general rules of spell range. There is no specific to override the general rules.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Optimizing the Worst (Healer & Warmage)
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2014, 10:46:19 AM »
I will kill myself.
The goal of trolling is just that. So please, take the time to work through my hit list before you do.

All through I can see your message being reported so I suggest that you remember, you only have to prove they are interpreting the rules interaction incorrectly. Anything else and you need to realize they are purposely trolling you and or to fucking stubborn to admit their idea is flawed, because that's all it is. An incorrect idea. So look up Widen Spell (an unquestionable example of how D&D resizes area effects), edit that post, and walk away with your head held high.