Grinding

[A_bad_DM]

Well, hoping I'm posting this in the right section.

Important part in Bold~

Since my last topic is about 6 pages back in the forum pages and since this topic is a little different, I thought I should make a new thread.

For those who did not read my previous topic, here's my situation: I DM a game with Gestalt rules and pathfinder classes accepted in the 3.5 rules. I have four players(A Dread Necro/Artificer(Now necropolitan), a Monk/Alchemist, a Warblade/Bard and another player whose classes I do not remember(We play once per two week and he was absent from last game, so I haven't seen his character in a long time and he was new to the game).)

Right now, the players are not all of the same level, because the artificer took an item familiar and spent a lot of xp on crafting. The monk took vow of poverty, the new character is still a bit behind the others and the warblade is... well... It doesn't look like he can do much. I guess I should help him optimize a bit.

Still, before optimizing anymore than that, they need to level up and the characters gave a reason for their characters to do so. The thing is, I don't really know what it is I should put in front of them.

Last game, I sent them a Quanlos(CR6)(with no thrall though) that was defeated in one round. I sent them two corrupture(CR9 each)(One in a tree and the other laying in wait in the swamp at the bottom of said tree.) The players killed the first ooze with one spell and the other took a bit longer. Next I opened Monster Manual II, not realizing it was 3.0 and picked up a CR11 creature. I thought it would be an easy fight, but they needed an NPC's help to escape the Juggernaut's arms.(I believe the artificer will soon be crafting rings of freedom of movement...)

They ended up on that particular Island because they were sent there by Fiend Folio's Kaortis who wanted to get rid of something. What I'm wondering is... What kind of monsters would cause problem to the Kaortis that I could put against my players for a few encounters. They are on an island covered with forest and swamps, though there is an underground area(which entry is now protected by a Juggernaut :S) The players want to gain XP quickly so it has to be kind of high CR but not something that they cannot win against.

Important points to note:
The Dread Necro is undead, can fly at will(effect from its cloak) and is pretty good at hiding.
The Monk/Alchemist is able to enlarge himself, is pretty good at grappling, and has more attacks than the usual monk
The Warblade/Bard barely uses his bardic music because he'd rather fight with his trident.
The other character is a quite low-level character(5~7) in comparison to the 8~10 of the other players so he's still kind of squishy.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Let's say they were all 10th level and you "nailed" them with CR 10 encounters.  The party combinations and Player experience running these types of PCs, would determine how many of those CR 10 encounters they could handle.  I'd hazard a guess that some CR 10 monsters would get near a TPK.

Since you can't force them to suddenly become more experienced players, or play their PCs the "right" way, you've got a simple option:  depower the monsters.  Easiest way to do that, is remove a few from an encounter; next is applying a -1 or -2 or more penalty, as if the monsters had negative levels.

Compare to 4e, where they tightened up the Game Maths so every encounter is much more Regular.  It would take 4 rounds for near C.O. PCs, 5 rounds for normal builds, 6 rounds for inexperienced players, etc.  Some people find this a little boring.

[nijineko]

if the monk isn't dishing out 100+ damage in a round yet, he's not very optimized, especially as a gestalt.

the bard... what?! bardic music enhances fighting... all he has to do is sing while he goes stabbitystabstab.

sounds like you need to try groups of creatures, as opposed to trying to find a single creature that is "challenging enough without being too challenging", which is an almost impossible task. After all, the CR of an encounter is boosted when you add creatures, though the rules on that are pretty squishy themselves.

not to mention that they should be getting xp for surviving traps, exploring hard to find areas, getting certain information out of npcs, finishing quests and goals, successful skill checks for surviving and solving things, figuring out puzzles, unlikely accomplishments, and so forth. monster defeating should be no more than 40% of the total xp a party or character gets, and that's if you are a combat heavy game. if your playstyle is dungeon crawl, then maybe 50-60% total, but never more than that, regardless.

[A_bad_DM]

@Nijineko:
I believe he could potentially do that, but the Juggernaut had a DR20/+2. The monk was the level just before gaining an equivalent of +2 on his attacks.

The bard doesn't really know how to play a bard I guess, which is why I said I would need to explain some things to him, but let's not forget he's not "only" bard on the bard side either so his bonuses are not that big yet.

Like I said, I tried two CR9 at once(Equivalent CR11 according to SRD encounter calculator). The players were just super lucky and killed one of them on the first initiative turn.

They do get exp every game for roleplay purposes(as with the ShadowRun system Karma points) and I do consider traps and other obstacles as being encounters.

@Awaken_D_M_golem
The players experience is quite difference too, two of them are quite experienced, one I don't know about and the other one(bard players actually) seems to be quite new to the system. Yes, a bunch of CR10 at once would most likely get rid of all the party, though the dread necromancer might get out "alive" depending on wether he flees or try to fight and keep the other safe.

I guess I could do that(weaken the monsters), considering that the Kaorti have probably tried to get on this island already.

Thanks for your answers.

[Unbeliever]

Monster Manual 2 is notoriously imbalanced.  So, take anything in it with a giant grain of salt.  Gestalt is also going to enhance 3E's already shaky intraparty balance. 

I find it easier to do dynamic encounters until I can peg the party's abilities.  (As a side note, one of my dear friends utterly sucks at this, and mostly relies on PC cunning to survive like the first encounter of a campaign).  Throw enemies at them in waves.  That way you can just add more to make the encounter challenging, or stop sending in the hordes if things get rough.  Something like that will let you know where they stand collectively, and then build to that.

Also, just make sure that they know that running away is an option.  The Juggernaut is probably a bad example, if memory serves it has some ultra battlefield control.  But, in general, that should be an option they are willing to exercise, depending on the tone of the campaign.

[phaedrusxy]

Also, just make sure that they know that running away is an option.  The Juggernaut is probably a bad example, if memory serves it has some ultra battlefield control.  But, in general, that should be an option they are willing to exercise, depending on the tone of the campaign.

This can't be emphasized enough, really. For some reason, this isn't something many players would even consider, until it is too late (and the whole party is dead ). So I often preface my campaigns with something like "There are always things out there that can easily mop the floor with you. Don't mess with them, or you'll die."

[A_bad_DM]

Yeah, fleeing is something I've taught my players to do(Kind of like Phaedrus but I don't just say it, I show it), but as you said the Juggernaut is kind of... Forcecage at will as a SLA makes it hard to flee.

I guess waves of ennemy would be my best option.
Maybe some kind of monsters living in a hive.

Guess I'm sending them a Myrmarch and its platoon.(Or more, if they proove too strong against only one.)

Thanks again for the answers!
And if you have any tips for the tactics I should use, feel free to send them my way

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, Juggernauts are nuts.  MM3 is probably overall the best on the "balanced but interesting encounters" book.  I also like the Fiendish Codices, though fiends have a bunch of wacky abilities.

[nijineko]

not quite up to tucker's standards, but i did have a single 4th level kobold (straight kobold, no chaser) put pause to the entire party once.