Pathfinder's Break Points

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

I may be joining a pure Pathfinder game soon (assume all PF official material is allowed) and want to know the breakpoints.  What new ways are there to break the game?  What ways from 3.5 still exist, even I'd they aren't do easy or rewarding this time around?

In terms of power, I'm curious about things that break campaigns (like Pun Pun or Cancer Mage + Festering Anger), as well as things deemed extremely strong without outright breakage, like Hood or Incantatrix + Persistent Spell.

Remember, no 3.x material allowed!

[Slippery_Chicken]

Well, there's the throwing+quickdraw shields thing. It allows one to draw and throw bucklers as a free action, leading to unlimited attacks.

You have the spell Paragon Surge, which busts open the Sorcerer's spells known. The only broken thing about that spell (that I know of) is using the bonus feat to temporarily get an extra spell known. Aside from that, the spell is mediocre.

A number of fear effects cause Shaken even on a successful save, or without a save at all. Stacking them can potentially lead to no-save (or at least very difficult to resist) action denial. With the right setup, you can automatically devastate non-immune foes.

Candle of Invocation is still broken as ever.

The mounted combat rules are an absolute mess. They're almost unusable.

Combat maneuvers in general are much harder to use than in real life, rendering that part of the rules highly underpowered and rarely used. Anyone seriously trained in close-quarters combat can perform disarms, submission holds, and takedowns without opening himself up to extra attacks.

There aren't any rules for many combat maneuvers, such as choking, carrying, throwing, and so on. Not so much broken as incomplete, but still a problem if someone wants to do it.

[WarlockLord]

Dazing Spell is pretty boss.

The bizarro land Pathfinder variant of Persistent Spell forces enemies to save twice against your spells.

[akalsaris]

Off the top of my head:

Hold-overs from 3.5 that are still broken:
- Gate, candle of invocation, Planar Binding line
- Polymorph any object
- Wish, Miracle
- Create demiplane

New things that are surprisingly strong but not quite game-breaking:
- Oracles and Sorcerers get many, many ways to increase spells known, through bloodlines/mysteries, the heritage feat line for Arcane Heritage, human favored class bonus, and other options. A high level PF sorcerer could easily have 25-50% more spells known than his 3.5 equivalent. Paragon Surge breaks this further.
- Witch's Sleep Hex is basically an at-will save-or-lose for foes that can sleep at every level of the game. Not game-breaking but certainly head and shoulders above other hex options
- my particular nitpick is that level 11 ninjas get a Death Attack with only 1 round before making an attack, which puts assassins to shame

[Snowbluff]

Other than paragon surge, Oracles have the Heavens option. They have a revelation that lowers HD of targets by the oracles Cha Modifier. With Color Spray, this gives them some extra mileage out of a first level spell. At fifth level, one of the revelations is a no-save touch attack Rage that shuts down casters.

[linklord231]

Guns use touch AC to hit within the first range increment. And ranged power attack exists, along with adding numerous stats to damage.

[oslecamo]

Off the top of my head:

Hold-overs from 3.5 that are still broken:
- Gate, candle of invocation, Planar Binding line
- Polymorph any object
- Wish, Miracle

Eerr, I'm sorry, but those just aren't true.
-Gate only allows you to control beings up to HD=CL, and since Reserves of Strength and friends aren't in PF, this means Gate no longer allows you to get creatures way above your level as minions.
-Polymorph any object now works based on PF polymorph, which means you don't actually get the monster's abilities-just a bunch of choices from a quite limited list.
-Wish no longer allows you to create items. Without that, really, it's nothing that special, neither is miracle when there's no things like SCM around.

[Amechra]

Hmmm... You can Gate in Solars, but they can't Gate in more Solars. I am left... displeased. Must figure out a way to boost their CL by 2!

[Snowbluff]

Guns use touch AC to hit within the first range increment. And ranged power attack exists, along with adding numerous stats to damage.

All of the gun rules are messed up in some way.

Misfires? Borked.
Proficiencies? Nuh uh.
GP costs? Wow.

Touch Attacks? A combination of historically inaccurate and laughably designed. I am nearly throwing up in my mouth right now. I taste bile when I read the rule. Nothing about it right.
A: IT has to penetrate armor stronger than typical steel.
B: They couldn't in real life (at least with some early fire arms).
C: Crossbows actually could, but can not in-game.

So on, and so forth.

Also, ranged power attack is a joke. It's cool, but it's the result of whining. "I want to do as much damage as a melee fighter at x20 the range."

[Slippery_Chicken]

Also, ranged power attack is a joke. It's cool, but it's the result of whining. "I want to do as much damage as a melee fighter at x20 the range."

Said whining was a result of ranged combat being infeasible in 3.5. Also, even with the buffs, ranged characters don't deal as much DPR as melee, but that's balanced by ranged being able to take full-attacks almost every round.

Also, combats in 3.X rarely start with combatants more than 100-200 feet away from each other, mostly hovering around 30-60ft. In practice, archers can rarely take full advantage of their range unless they can kite somehow.

[Snowbluff]

Said whining was a result of ranged combat being infeasible in 3.5. Also, even with the buffs, ranged characters don't deal as much DPR as melee, but that's balanced by ranged being able to take full-attacks almost every round.

Also, combats in 3.X rarely start with combatants more than 100-200 feet away from each other, mostly hovering around 30-60ft. In practice, archers can rarely take full advantage of their range unless they can kite somehow.

It being infeasible is probably untrue. There are a ton of options available for archers, and some of them are really good. For example, Factotum, Decisive Strike, Knowledge Devotion, poisons, separate arrow enchantments, Energy Bow. The only time I was ever accused of rocket tag in 3.5 was playing a Monk/Factotum. I thwacked the bard, and then gunned down a titan after rolling a huge initiative roll.

A lot of the tricks I used could be considered higher level (Font of Inspiration, Ranger Wands, Tooth of Leraje), but it's not as impossible to make a competitive archer as I was lead to believe. Even in 30-60 ranges you can still full attack the first round, and deliver all sorts of hurt.

Like I said, I like the feat. It's a nice thing for mundanes. It's just stupid.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Paragon Surge + spont. caster = cast any spell you want if you have the slot for it on the spot!
If you're not a Sorcerer, you can also spont. call upon the entire Sorcerer spell list at level 11+ thanks to the Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) line.  Specifically, using PS to temp. gain Improved EH.

There's a race that has +2 Int/Wis and gets to add 6 spells to their spell list from any other list as long as it is the same "type" (arcane or divine).  Which has all sorts of broken combo potential or you can use it to get level 9 spells at 6th level by abusing the 6-level casters' lists.

Wish and Miracle and all the other xp spells now cost gp instead.  Which is great already, but then you realize there's a 1st level spell called Blood Money to avoid paying expensive materials/gp costs for spells and can really go to crazy-town.

The Witch gets an at will save or die right from level 1, Slumber.  It's Su, so SR can go fuck off, too.  It does have some drawbacks ("only" 30 ft range, "only" round/level [so...delay/ready to use it just before an ally adjacent to the foe gets his turn for the coup de grace], it's mind-affecting) but really, it will utterly wreck solo or duo encounters vs. 2/3 the Bestiary.  Then at level 10 they get another at will save or die (Ice Tomb) that just outright hoses anything that's not undead or construct.

Wizard gets to cast his prohibited school spells at double slot cost...but who cares for downtime spells, plus wands/scrolls work just fine as-is.  Then he can take Opposition Research to eliminate 1 prohibited school.  And if he goes for Elemental specialist, he only *has* 1.  Or he can go Teleport Conjuror, get all the bonus win spell slots, and get Sudden Shift which is just like 3E's Abrupt Jaunt except Su instead of Sp (awesome!) and swift instead of immediate (aww...).

The Emergency Force Sphere spell is like a higher level (4th) Wings of Cover that can immediate action protect the whole party and is available to more classes than just Sorcerer.

Dazing Spell is utterly broken, it turns any damage spell into a save or lose, and is just disgusting with the right spell/combo.  Remind me to link the "Geysermancer" when giantitp's forums are back.

Persistent Spell is also broken, only +2 levels to force 2 saves.  Bouncing Spell is only +1 and lets you redirect a save-or-lose that failed to a 2nd target for a retry.  Spell Perfection is the ultimate in broken caster shit, it doubles any numerical feat bonuses the chosen spell receives and lets you apply 1 metamagic to it for FREE (can choose a different one each time, but...it's gonna be Quicken, generally).

Guns are completely broken.  They hit touch AC ("only" at 1st range increment, as if D&D combats are long distance, and it's easy to make it 2 or even 3 increments if you want).  They get to apply ranged power attack, despite a rule specifically saying touch attacks can't get the bonus damage, too.  The main gunner class also gets dex to damage, making them single-stat dependent unlike an archer.  And guns have high base damage, higher crits than bows, and can be dual wielded if you choose to be a Pistolero or otherwise go with pistols/revolvers (which you should).  The ability to full attack power attack touch AC from range with dex to damage and sprinkles on top is "balanced" by making it so the guns might randomly break (first they take a small attack penalty you don't care about and have a higher chance of misfiring again, 2nd misfire it ceases working).  Hurray, balance by randomness!  Guns and their ammo are also expensive (especially if using paper cartridges to get reloading down to free action), but...only suckers pay base price.  A single feat lets you make guns and ammo and such yourself, with no craft check DC to possibly fail or anything and for anywhere between 1/5 to 1/10 (!!!!) market price, because fuck your "1/3 price" crafting rules!
I seriously think a 6 year old could've made more balanced gun rules than paizo did.  Oh, did I mention that how broken the guns will be depends on how hard you play "mother, may I?" with the DM?  Because the DM chooses the "tech level" of the setting, and the high tech guns are leagues better than the (still good) primitive firearms.  They don't recommend a tech level or say what level the rules of other weapons were balanced around, they just leave it up to the DM.  Brilliant....

Dust of Sneezing and Choking also remains unchanged from 3E, iirc.

[Endarire]

How does this +6 bonus spells race give access potentially to level 9 spells?

[linklord231]

How does this +6 bonus spells race give access potentially to level 9 spells?

He means you can use it to grab things like Dominate Monster, Maze, or Teleportation Circle at spell level 6 by taking advantage of partial casters, rather than spell level 9 like they are for everybody else. 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah.  Bards, Inquisitor, and *especially* Summoner all get some steep level discounts on various spells due to being 6-level casters.  Same with the 4-level casters, though surprisingly they seem to get less big discounts.

[deadkitten]

There's a race that has +2 Int/Wis and gets to add 6 spells to their spell list from any other list as long as it is the same "type" (arcane or divine).  Which has all sorts of broken combo potential or you can use it to get level 9 spells at 6th level by abusing the 6-level casters' lists.

That race is the Samsaran, and actually its 1 + Int modifier spells added to your spell list. Samsaran Oracles love it because it lets them grab a 4th level Paladin spell that turns the entire party into pseudo paladins.

Since their fluff is that they reincarnate, I used one once to grab from the trapsmith spell list and get into Swiftblade early so I could make a "Doctor Who" like character.

[deadkitten]

Yeah.  Bards, Inquisitor, and *especially* Summoner all get some steep level discounts on various spells due to being 6-level casters.  Same with the 4-level casters, though surprisingly they seem to get less big discounts.

Inquisitors are honestly the worst choice to pick from though, they have the worst spell list of all those you mentioned.

ACUTE SENSES: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/acute-senses Is worth grabbing from the  2/3 casters though since they are the only ones who get it. And ranger as well.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's a race that has +2 Int/Wis and gets to add 6 spells to their spell list from any other list as long as it is the same "type" (arcane or divine).  Which has all sorts of broken combo potential or you can use it to get level 9 spells at 6th level by abusing the 6-level casters' lists.

That race is the Samsaran, and actually its 1 + Int modifier spells added to your spell list. Samsaran Oracles love it because it lets them grab a 4th level Paladin spell that turns the entire party into pseudo paladins.

Well, yes.  1 + casting modifier.  And since they get +2 Int/Wis and primary casters 'gonna max the shit out of their casting stat to a 20 anyway... they get 6 spells from another caster's list.  6.  Full stop.  1+5 = 6.  Sorry I did the math for you in my post.