Tanuki

[oslecamo]

By all means, feel free to make new posts for each prc. That's why they gave me this subforum, remember?

Anyway, the soothsayer got buffed yet again...

"If it multiclasses into one base class that progresses the emulated casting, its Tanuki Soothsayer levels stack with it to determining its casting ability."

Congratulations, as soon as you take a caster level, all those soothsayer levels now grant fullcasting. I'm not very sure how that interacts with the spellcasting you had already gained at first level, and just for laughs swaps. Could easily mean you're casting as a 14th level caster at 11th level.

And unlike what you just claimed, that starts happening right at first level. Capstone mentions nothing about spellcasting.

Would it really be so hard to just give it delayed spellcasting, or come up with some custom limitation? Like "no necro/evocation spells allowed, and you can't ban necromancy/evocation if you're a wizard". Oh, wait, you can't do custom limitations, because you insisted on including every spellcasting class ever and their cousins, because tanukis are the actually secret master race behind everything in the world, being agle to freely gestalt with over half the classes of the games with a single prc because reasons. And go figure how this all interacts if you take some kind of theurge prc.

So basically, delayed is the only viable choice at this point. If you still insists on making it a fullcaster in steroids, then I'll just forget this whole thing exists.

I'm honestly afraid of even opening the next tanuki prc spoiler at this point. Probably hands out divine ranks and divine salient divine abilities like candy, along with Wish and Gate as SLAs whitout any cost clause. Along with just for laughs and master of mischief.

[Raineh Daze]

Presumably, if you take Tanuki 4/Soothsayer 1/Wizard 1, you cast as a second level wizard. Tanuki 4/Soothsayer 6/Wizard 1, you'd jump from having the spells per day and CL of a level 3 wizard to a level 7 wizard (at 11 HD--so still a full two spell levels behind), whilst only having the spells known of a level 4 Wizard (well, not that that's an issue if you can afford to scribe). I'm not sure what you're so worried about. Even at level 20 you only have 7th level spells, and if you picked Sorcerer or something you don't even get that.

[oslecamo]

Except for the part I quoted. "Soothsayer levels stack with it to determining its casting ability". Then it gets extra spellcasting on top. And the base 4 tanuki levels further improve it because you have to take the pseudocasting option. It's stacking spellcasting in three diferent ways, which is simultaneously broken, clunky, and unnecessary.

[Anomander]

Chill. No needs to get condescending. I'm not insisting to put it on steroid, you just found a way to read it that makes it sound worse. And that's my mistake.

The way it works is simply that it keeps giving pseudocasting for all levels except the first level, which grants one level of actual casting (new spells known/uses per day). It can use Just for Laughs to make a TSooth level grant spells per day and spells known as if it was a level in the chosen class instead of merely granting pseudocasting. This means that the only way to gets 6 levels of spells known/use acquisitions is to use the two Just for Laughs granted by this prc, spend one Master of Mischief to get two Just for Laughs for that purpose as well and either use the second Master of Mischief too or enter another Tanuki prc and wait get 2 levels in it to spend its Just for Laughs to convert the 6th level.

The capstone indeed as nothing to do with spellcasting. It's just easier to become a fullcaster if you don't get the last level and get right away into the one base class that can progress the chosen casting type and whatever else can progress it afterwards.

It is a lot more limited than it was.
If you read it as a buff somehow, I'll take some time tonight to read it over and see were the confusion slipped in.

Edit: Rewrote it to better fit the intent. As said, it was meant to take quite a hit. If it was too harsh I can instead have Force of the Ancients allow the first and second level to progress spellcasting and then it has to spend each Master of Mischief abilities to have 2 more levels (current and the next one) progress casting as well.

[oslecamo]

I find it somewhat curious you've been editing that last post of yours for two days now.

But well, now that the text is clearer and there's no more multiple casting stacking shenigans, I have no more complaints. It's still not exactly "limited" since you can go out there and cherry pick from dozens of classes, but at least now it's properly delayed in terms of raw power. On to the next one!

Taninjuki:
-Yoroitoshi isn't very clear on the swift action option. Do you get to ignore all of those kind of bonus or just half with your attacks?
-None of the abilities are (too) OP per se... But it's getting a lot of them packed togheter, along with full sneak attack progression and rendering immunity to precision damage useless automatically (altough immunity-piercing is nice, you shouldn't make the immunity completely obsolete so easily).
-And then Mischief Combo is just screaming for trouble. That's too many free actions/attacks to my liking.

[Anomander]

I find it somewhat curious you've been editing that last post of yours for two days now.

Since, you're curious, I first posted this one to announce I'd look into it. Then after making the modifications to say it's done. I think once more because I adjusted it to remove the first level of free casting to make it fully dependent on Just for Laughs, then again to clarify intent and I'll edit it once more now because I just noticed a typo that annoys me. It took a while I think before the first edit since I couldn't find much time to work on it.

Taninjuki

Yoroitoshi
I see what you mean. It is meant to be half bypasses for a swift. But if you spend a swift and a move and still can make some attacks they all gain full bypass. I'll rephrase it when I'll adjust the prc.

Immunity to precision
Alright. There are many angles to take care of it. One is that it could bypass precision immunity related to creature types and class abilities. It keeps gear immunity intact as an anti-ninja-glass-cannon defensive measure.
Another is to make it work only against creatures that are denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, so it can try to bypass the immunity with a swift action through a good Kasumi Gake.
Another is maintain full immunity piercing but put a limit on Kunai use. Either a daily limit, a 'per minute' limit or a cooldown after using it X times. Either way, this would provide some reliable immunity piercing (if you can hit) to a point but it would make Kasumi Suzaku less spammable.
A less interesting way is that it works only against those with an HD equal or lower than its own, as if everyone had some kind of lesser Improved Uncanny Dodge. There are certainly other alternatives but I'm trying to stick with the supernatural ninja monster thing that's good at trick-shooting out other supernatural monsters. As long as it stays in there somehow I'm fine with it.

Mischief Combo
Before I get to possible fixed, I'll explain how I tailored the ability:
You have a maximum of 3 combo at ECL 10. Getting more requires going into more tanuki prc that do not progress sneak attack. Maximum 4 combo at ECL 13, 5 at ECL 15, 6 at ECL 18 (if you don't take the capstone) and 7 at HD 20.
At HD 20 (or 21 if you take a second capstone) you could thus use all your Tanuki boosts once for free and have 1 combo left.
Alternatively, you could make a Yami Shigure with 6 extra attacks. Either way, you spend all your combo and then you're stuck getting 1 combo per round for the rest of the encounter.

If it doesn't get more tanuki prc levels, then 3 combo is all it'll ever have. It won't scale. 2 additional attacks with a Yami Shigure once every 3 rounds (as opposed to the usual 1d4 rounds) isn't that OP.
I don't think that is too powerful. It is similar to getting an extra round of action once per encounter but you cannot use the actions in whichever way you want. I considered making some of those abilities scale into free actions (Change Shape, Kasumi Gake, Yoroitoshi) but I preferred to unite them in a combo system for this class that puts a limit to how free they can get.
Suggested fix:
What I can certainly do though is further limit what those combo-free-actions can be. Like removing certain options like Kobi Ori, Raida and/or Sake Affinity from the list.

Else/and I could make it so that each free action option can only be done once per round but I don't really see the point when comparing the benefit vs the cost.

(click to show/hide)

3x Kasumi Gake can be redundant vs 1 boosted Kubi Ori unless you're fleeing blindly or something.
3x Change shape for ...huh. Usually 1 is enough.
3x Kubi Ori is harder to spam without getting the required move action to start it somewhere else, like a mix of Kubi Ori and Kasumi Gake or spending another combo to boost it as well.
3x Raida can be nice if you're a good grappler. Sneak attack dice progression takes a hit if you get more tanuki prc levels to increase your combo maximum though.
3x Sake Affinity can be a good instant buffer if it was invested in. Can be pretty nice if you don't really rely on all the other stuff.
2x Yoroitoshi is nice if you need the actions for something else but it is still a big hit on the combo count for a 1 round buff.

Open to suggestions as always. I'll get to rewriting it tonight.

[oslecamo]

Daily uses sounds better for immunity piercing from your options. Altough I personally prefer the X% chance of ignoring.

Now to the action stacking. Whateverhis name 6/tanuki 4.

First you pick tricks of the trade for shadow hand and assassin's stance. Now you have 7d6 sneak attack, plus two maneuvers.

You can then spend a swift action to both position yourself and deny your opponent's Dex bonus. You're guaranteed full sneak attacks every single combat round unless your opponent is pretty far away.

Now add your usual rapid shot and two-weapon fighting for a couple extra attacks. You also have one iterative, for four total.

And now they're all doubled for eight.

And now you add 2 extra from combo. That are also doubled.

That's a whooping 84 sneak attack dice.  Average 294 damage. C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!

You spent all your combo points, but you don't care because you just dished out more than enough damage to take out a mature adult blue dragon.

And I only used one Master of Miscief and some three feats. The tanuki still has two just for laughs and two other master of mischiefs. Heck, I'm not even bothering with the kunai base damage, which I'm sure there was another tanuki ability that could greatly pimp it up for cramming some extra d6 of damage in there with free enanchments and whatnot (wait, I found it, leaf blower would mean an extra 24d6 fire/cold damage plus +24 base enanchment, so an extra 108 damage, so you get to 1-round very old blue dragons). And two master of mischiefs to spend and a bunch of other stuff.

No other rogue-type monster class I remember right now comes even close to this. This prc of yours has just too many synergetic abilities crammed togheter in just 6 levels.

[Anomander]

Immunity to precision
X% chance of ignoring could work even though I didn't list it but what would be bothering is that you'd always have to roll %s for every attack in case the thing is immune. Quite a drag. Another possibility is that half sneak attack damage is dealt if the creature is immune to precision damage.

SA combo
The whole thing crumbles since the sneak attack damage is not actually doubled. The rules on sneak attack is that any additional attack that uses the same attack roll counts as only one attack providing sneak attack damage.

(click to show/hide)

Volley Type Attacks

Sometimes, you make multiple attacks with the same attack roll, such as when you use the Manyshot feat, or you make multiple attack rolls as part of the same attack, such as with the scorching ray spell. When you do so, only the first attack in the volley can be a sneak attack.

I'll make Kasumi Gake deny the Dex bonus only against the next attack instead of all of them.
There are already a bunch of ways to get extra attacks so since you don't like hem at all I can just scratch the combo entry for Yami Shigure since it doesn't really need one (it already sort of have a combo entry as part of the ability itself) or change it for something else, like a melee reach increase per additional combo or whatever.

[Rakoa]

Why not just make it so that only half of the Taninjuki's Sneak Attack damage is precision based? The other half does full damage against any targets.

Edit: Nevermind, you said that. 

[oslecamo]

Half sneak attack against immune sounds look a good compromise.

Volley rules only make it a bit less ridiculous. Because each cloned shuriken is still easily dealing an extra 3d6+1, and you still have 7d6 sneak attack.

So that's an average of 242 damage, now taking in account the actual shuriken damage. Nerfing Kasumi Gake doesn't hurt that much because you can just grab that Shadow Hand boost that makes you invisible for your turn (two maneuvers leftover, remember?) to make them flatfooted, and you still get to move to line up your shots.

Basically, double kunais are working like an extra 3d6 sneak attack damage on all attacks. And any other effect that boosts damage per attack (hello dragonfire inspiration!) will be double as effective with this.

I'm kinda suprised, since you yourself once pointed out that straight out doubling things is bad. Kasumi Suzaku will be doubling any and all semi-obscure damage boosts you can cram in and/or your party brings to the table.

[Anomander]

Half sneak attack against immune sounds look a good compromise.

Sounds good.

Nerfing Kasumi Gake doesn't hurt that much because you can just grab that Shadow Hand boost that makes you invisible for your turn (two maneuvers leftover, remember?) to make them flatfooted, and you still get to move to line up your shots.

Sources of invisibility abound, indeed. Not nerfing it then, alright.

I'm kinda suprised, since you yourself once pointed out that straight out doubling things is bad. Kasumi Suzaku will be doubling any and all semi-obscure damage boosts you can cram in and/or your party brings to the table.

If you agree with me, then I'll change it, no problem.

I could put Yami Shigure instead of Kasumi Suzaku, but only for a melee full-attack and without a combo cost but keep its combo entry for additional melee attacks that can be done at any point during the movement.
Then put Kasumi Suzaku as the capstone for the regular Yami Shigure effect plus the ability to do Yami Shigure with ranged weapons. In the end it would amount to Yami Shigure being available earlier but only for melee combat, Kasumi Suzaku being removed for the combo cost of Yami Shigure (attacks only) to be removed and maintaining possible additional attacks from combo for the loss of double attacks.

[oslecamo]

Nerfing Kasumi Gake doesn't hurt that much because you can just grab that Shadow Hand boost that makes you invisible for your turn (two maneuvers leftover, remember?) to make them flatfooted, and you still get to move to line up your shots.

Sources of invisibility abound, indeed. Not nerfing it then, alright.

That was not the point. The point is that this prc is outdoing every rogue class I can think off while not even using half their resources. You nerf something, I just have to scroll down a bit to find something that makes up for it, like the already mentioned free invisibility because free maneuvers.

I'm kinda suprised, since you yourself once pointed out that straight out doubling things is bad. Kasumi Suzaku will be doubling any and all semi-obscure damage boosts you can cram in and/or your party brings to the table.

If you agree with me, then I'll change it, no problem.

I could put Yami Shigure instead of Kasumi Suzaku, but only for a melee full-attack and without a combo cost but keep its combo entry for additional melee attacks that can be done at any point during the movement.
Then put Kasumi Suzaku as the capstone for the regular Yami Shigure effect plus the ability to do Yami Shigure with ranged weapons. In the end it would amount to Yami Shigure being available earlier but only for melee combat, Kasumi Suzaku being removed for the combo cost of Yami Shigure (attacks only) to be removed and maintaining possible additional attacks from combo for the loss of double attacks.

Fullattacking in the middle of movement for free is something other classes don't get that early, and certainly not while gaining multiple other boosts in the same level with double good saves and 8+skill points.

Why not do the same thing you did with the soothsayer, and turn all those abilities into just for laughs/MOM, and then if the the prc wants them, then they can burn their laughs/MOMs for them, instead of being virtual gestalts.

[Anomander]

Nevermind the early Yami Shigure then.

If instead of granting Sneak Attacks I just allowed it to select It Tickles! with selections of Just for Laughs a number of times equal to half HD, would that work with you?

Edit: Gotta go. Might not be able to do much until either late night this Sunday or if I manage to get enough time online today/tomorrow, with some luck.

[oslecamo]

If instead of granting Sneak Attacks I just allowed it to select It Tickles! with selections of Just for Laughs a number of times equal to half HD, would that work with you?

Remove all of the combo options that directly translate into free attacks (like free action kubi ori), plus that, and yes, it should work.

Bake-danuki
-The only good thing I can say about this is that it doesn't directly progresses spellcasting/martial progression. But otherwise? Monster classes are not balanced to take in account you can go out there and cherry pick their abilities just like that, in particular when many of them are scaling. There's chaos and gods, and you even went out of your way to pick a wording that bypasses the anti-copy limitations I had put on those.

That's of course ignoring the part where it has no duration limit, so you'll just keep piling up more and more abilities with each day of gameplay. Infinite-stalt.

[Anomander]

Bake-danuki

Monster classes are not balanced to take in account you can go out there and cherry pick their abilities just like that, in particular when many of them are scaling.

The Mindstealer Drone is an expert at that provided that it finds the cherries. Greater Doppelganger too, to a point.
Bake-danuki is limited to what it transforms into would have and those abilities are not granted not include a go at getting spellcasting or other non-monster class abilities. Instead of getting a list of things of things as a reward for a good hunt, you can choose among the lowest levels available to the creature you emulate.
A single ability that can be given to a 1 level creature at min HD 6. Two abilities from a level 2 creature at min HD 8 and three abilities from a level 3 creature at min HD 10. It's alright if they scale; Tanuki Youkai is the only ability exclusive to the bake-danuki that scales.

There's chaos and gods, and you even went out of your way to pick a wording that bypasses the anti-copy limitations I had put on those.

Never looked at Chaos so I wouldn't know. If you say so I suppose the God template can be emulated if you actually have the worshipers required since having worshipers is not an action-based prerequisite. I took words to explain that you can't directly take a class' capstone and that you're limited to the first few levels. Didn't think hard on it and it was certainly not to make some strange bypass to this. I figured that abilities that cannot be copied just can't be copied. No matter the wording. If you say it actually works then it wasn't intentional and I'll just put a clause to remind that uncopiable abilities cannot actually be copied.

That's of course ignoring the part where it has no duration limit, so you'll just keep piling up more and more abilities with each day of gameplay. Infinite-stalt.

You're limited to only 1-3 abilities in a 1-3 level build. When you change them for the day, your previous selection doesn't stay. It changed.

[oslecamo]

Bake-danuki

Monster classes are not balanced to take in account you can go out there and cherry pick their abilities just like that, in particular when many of them are scaling.

The Mindstealer Drone is an expert at that provided that it finds the cherries. Greater Doppelganger too, to a point.

And the baka danuki can just steal those for himself. Even if there's no actual mindstealer drones or greater doppelgangers in the world.

We already had this discussion back when someone tried to do a polymorph version that worked with this monster classes. If you make an ability that can just grab whatever other monster classes abilities they want, even if you put some illusory delay, you're rendering this whole project pointless. The only valid reason anyone will pick anything but baka-danuki is if they want a fullcaster or full martial initiator. Otherwise, baka danuki can get you anything you want, with free extras, and swap them at your fancy.

[Anomander]

And the baka danuki can just steal those for himself. Even if there's no actual mindstealer drones or greater doppelgangers in the world.

No, it cannot.
You need at least 4 mindstealer drone abilities to effectively steal monster abilities at your leisure and you cannot take fake-levels in monster prestige classes, let alone get the 4 doppelganger levels required to even be eligible to take it since the limit is the first 3 levels.

Otherwise, baka danuki can get you anything you want, with free extras, and swap them at your fancy.

Only if it is within the first 3 levels of a monster and it transforms into it. Anyone that wants any ability past the first 3 levels won't want to invest all these levels to get bake-danuki so much.

Cases of "the monster you are transforming into doesn't exist in this world" shouldn't be a problem since if the monster doesn't exist, then you can't change shape into it to begin with, making the ability emulation impossible.

On the other hand, I believe that they shouldn't able to transform into something they don't even know exists or understand.
I can limit it with good Monster ID knowledge checks to show that they understand what they transform into or require that they have seen what they transform into before.

[oslecamo]

And the baka danuki can just steal those for himself. Even if there's no actual mindstealer drones or greater doppelgangers in the world.

No, it cannot.
You need at least 4 mindstealer drone abilities to effectively steal monster abilities at your leisure and you cannot take fake-levels in monster prestige classes, let alone get the 4 doppelganger levels required to even be eligible to take it since the limit is the first 3 levels.

Silly boy, you don't need to have the 4 abilities at the same time. Some days you go around draining memoroes, other days you transform, other days you do something else.

Also, there's nothing in the baka tanuki forbidding you from just jumping into monster prcs, as from a class point of view, they're a separate entity.

Otherwise, baka danuki can get you anything you want, with free extras, and swap them at your fancy.

Only if it is within the first 3 levels of a monster and it transforms into it. Anyone that wants any ability past the first 3 levels won't want to invest all these levels to get bake-danuki so much.

Cases of "the monster you are transforming into doesn't exist in this world" shouldn't be a problem since if the monster doesn't exist, then you can't change shape into it to begin with, making the ability emulation impossible.

On the other hand, I believe that they shouldn't able to transform into something they don't even know exists or understand.
I can limit it with good Monster ID knowledge checks to show that they understand what they transform into or require that they have seen what they transform into before.

Or you could just limit it to a limited number. No good ever comes from spontaneous acess to hundreds of options. Oh, wait, you still get mindstealer drone and greater doppelganger and cherry pick from the high level prcs.

[Anomander]

Silly boy? Weird.

Some days you go around draining memoroes, other days you transform, other days you do something else.

Good idea, but technically the whole process would crumble on itself because you use a batch of abilities to transform into something and, since you only have those abilities while you are in the form of a Mindstealer Drone, you lose the abilities by transforming into something else.

Also, there's nothing in the baka tanuki forbidding you from just jumping into monster prcs, as from a class point of view, they're a separate entity.

You're right. I had put a clause specifically forbidding it in the terms of use but I guess it was removed at some point by saving different instances of the same post. Thanks for pointing it out.

Or you could just limit it to a limited number. No good ever comes from spontaneous acess to hundreds of options.

Sounds wise. Could use a mix of the two via a swap option, maybe. Something like either a number of ability/level combinations equal to HD or a number of monster classes that can be emulated equal to its bake-danuki class level.
It would only be able to change a selection by studying a monster it wants to emulate for 10 minutes to replace one of its selections by a monster class taken by the observed creature. Or something like that.

[oslecamo]

Well, the text right now is a bit self-contradictory.

It can take its abilities from a template monster class provided that it meets all the prerequisites, except any that requires a special action (such as a ritual).
IE: A bake-danuki that has the Alertness, Dodge, and Combat Reflexes feats who transforms into a vampire unicorn could get its Blood Drain ability, but not its Greater Blood Powers ability since it requires two levels in the class (and is completely useless without a means to get blood charges). Because Vampire has a disadvantageous ability at first level, it would also gain the Vampire Vulnerabilities.

Vampire demands a special rtiual to gain, so why are you using it as an example?

Of particular interest since the Half-Golem also demands rituals... And cherry picking from the Half-Golem may just be more insane than cherry picking from the first 3 levels of everything else.