Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?

[killem2]

I'm looking for more on the lines of pathfinder advice but any is welcome, because I really would like to know.

Epic Level play has become some what of a forgotten aspect of many games which is a shame.

What are the reasons?


Almost everything that previously was 3.5 D&D seems to have translated well enough, but Epic Level play is still left behind well into pathfinder.

Is there anything good that can be salvaged from it?

Would it be best to have a brand new system to build from?

So, what say you pathfinder/d&d folks?

[Raineh Daze]

There are VERY few pros to it, since ninth level spells can basically do anything already, and Epic Spells make that quite literally anything. Want a spell to give yourself arbitrarily high ability scores for the next century? Here you go! Plus you can have permanent-effect emanations (one in 3.5 forces anyone within 40' to make a fort save or be unable to cast spells), automatically quicken all your spells at a high enough level (thus meaning you can get off, say, time stop twice in one round)...

As for anything good: basically all the martial feats work at non-epic levels. Just lower the requirements and you're golden (so long as you stop spellcasters from deciding to take infinite and exceptional deflection. <_<)

[Nytemare3701]

I highly suggest using my Epic Spellcasting fix instead of the frankly impossible to balance Epic Seed system.

Epic Spellcasting

Spell slots: Epic spell slots follow the same progression as normal spell slots, but new spells aren't learned. The new slots are used for metamagic feats, as well as the new Chaincasting feat.

Chaincast [Metamagic, Epic]
Your mastery of spellcasting is so great that you may cast a great number of spells in a short amount of time.
Prerequisites: Level 21, Spellcraft 24 Ranks
Benefits: You may cast as many spells as you wish in one turn by adding the total level of the spells together and adding 2. That is the spell slot that is used.
Note: 0 Level spells are treated as 1/2 a level.
Example: Magic Missile + Fireball = 6th level slot

[Raineh Daze]

I highly suggest using my Epic Spellcasting fix instead of the frankly impossible to balance Epic Seed system.

Epic Spellcasting

Spell slots: Epic spell slots follow the same progression as normal spell slots, but new spells aren't learned. The new slots are used for metamagic feats, as well as the new Chaincasting feat.

Chaincast [Metamagic, Epic]
Your mastery of spellcasting is so great that you may cast a great number of spells in a short amount of time.
Prerequisites: Level 21, Spellcraft 24 Ranks
Benefits: You may cast as many spells as you wish in one turn by adding the total level of the spells together and adding 2. That is the spell slot that is used.
Note: 0 Level spells are treated as 1/2 a level.
Example: Magic Missile + Fireball = 6th level slot

Basically Improved Spell Capacity and Automatic Quicken, only better? :/

[ketaro]

That Chaincast looks more like a huge nerf to Automatic Quicken. How many times would you need to take a feat to gain spell levels above 9th until you can cast two 9th level spells in one round? That's a lot of wasted feats.

The answer is 9 times. That's 10 feats to cast two 9th level spells in one round.
Automatic Quicken only needs to be grabbed 3 times to do the same.

Chaincast could just be outdone by Timestop or Arcane Spellsurge and that's not even epic.

[Raineh Daze]

That Chaincast looks more like a huge nerf to Automatic Quicken. How many times would you need to take a feat to gain spell levels above 9th until you can cast two 9th level spells in one round? That's a lot of wasted feats.

The answer is 9 times. That's 10 feats to cast two 9th level spells in one round.
Automatic Quicken only needs to be grabbed 3 times to do the same.

It has the potential to get you more than two spells. Plus it's not quicken, so you still have your swift action left for another spell this round.

[ketaro]

The potential, yeah of course. But the investment is pretty much not worth it. There are better and even non-epic and non-homebrew means of accomplishing similarly, even if not to the same level of extent but still enough to do what you want to do, without burning half a dozen feats that gain you nothing but more spell levels above 9th.

[Raineh Daze]

The potential, yeah of course. But the investment is pretty much not worth it. There are better and even non-epic and non-homebrew means of accomplishing similarly, even if not to the same level of extent but still enough to do what you want to do, without burning half a dozen feats that gain you nothing but more spell levels above 9th.

Mmm, but this is assuming that it's not something like: CL 19 = 10th level, CL 21 = 11th, CL 23 = 12th, CL 25 = 13th; where you get spell levels faster than feats and it only costs two feats; you can promptly resume either adding improved spell capacity to hurry this up further, or grab permanent emanation, or even Automatic Quicken because of COURSE we need to be able to cast a Quickened 9th level spell and half a dozen lower level things* whilst the monk is contemplating whether to deflect every arrow or one ranged spell.

*And then we make that spell timestop. And use our other action once this is over to cast timestop. Yay, 2d4 rounds to fire EVERYTHING!

[ketaro]

Totally did not get that on the first could reads but since you explained it like that, it suddenly does sound like you gain spell levels above 9th like

CL 19 = 10th level, CL 21 = 11th, CL 23 = 12th, CL 25 = 13th

and so on. Huh. Dunno how I missed that.

[Raineh Daze]

Still less broken than epic spells in the longterm, but when it comes to immediate applications (and direct damage--sorcerers can now level everything even easier), well...

[DaCraw]

Well, casting two 9th level spells in one round with chaincasting would require a 20th level slot, so CL 39. This comes online later than automatic quicken x3 (Which is available by level 30), or simply quickening one of the 9th level spells with a 13th level slot (CL 25).

[Raineh Daze]

Well, casting two 9th level spells in one round with chaincasting would require a 20th level slot, so CL 39. This comes online later than automatic quicken x3 (Which is available by level 30), or simply quickening one of the 9th level spells with a 13th level slot (CL 25).

Let's assume I have chaincasting, quicken spell, and epic spellcasting, at level 30 (hell, I think you CAN possibly have automatic quicken X3 then, too--bonus feats for being an epic single-classed character). I have level 15 slots, thus I can cast a quickened ninth level spell, and also a ninth level spell and fourth level spell. This is already an improvement--only two epic feats over three.

CL 39 I get to cast three 9th's in one go.

[SorO_Lost]

You cast a Quickened 9th level Spell using a 13th level Slot, then you cast 9th level Spell using a 9th level Slot.
And that's not even the lowest level you can do this (metamagic rods anyone?)

"CL39" is not about casting two 9th level Spells. It's about a 20th level Slot. Two 9ths out of the same Slot is just one application of it. Another would be a Twinned Repeated Admixtured 8th level Spell for eight times the destruction and even by CL33 you can Persist any 9th level Spell even if your DM banned all methods of reducing Metamagic costs. Heck, why not create your own 18th level (cl35) spell called Stopmoving (grease+web+solidfog+blacktentacles+cloudkill) or some such? Maybe just cast 20 Cantrips in a row using a 12th level Slot or something, sure they are "just Cantrips" by freebie Fell Drain would make you stop and think the application of twenty negative levels.

Or whatever else comes to mind when it's not 12:25am and you're up for some damn reason.

[Nytemare3701]

Never said it was balanced. Just said I recommended it. It's still worlds more usable than normal epic spellcasting, and it interacts with the existing spell system nicely. If you worry about people abusing stacked cantrips, make them all the same spell. All the castings go together as one spell. This also opens up counterspells again.

[Unbeliever]

I think the pros are kind of mysterious.  You are super ultra powerful dudes!  Ok, but how much of that was not adequately conveyed by being 17th level?  Is able to murder an entire army in single combat before lunch somehow not "epic" enough? 

The cons are that the system is a complete mess.  Most epic feats frankly suck, and then there are some that are zomg! broken.  And, there just isn't a ton of support for it overall.  There aren't a ton of epic monsters, nor are there are a ton of epic character options, even if you have all the web articles, etc.

So, it rarely seems worth it.  If you do have a campaign that is at high levels now, and you'd like to keep it progressing, it seems to me that the amount of work it would take to rehabilitate 3E's epic level play might even be more profitably put into some other form of post-20 advancement.  Some gestalt variant or developing unique abilities for each character or maybe even just stacking up levels as normal.  Something perhaps more thought-out than the current epic rules. 

[snakeman830]

Epic Spellcasting is broken, but I don't think unsalvageable.  One DM I played with had a houserule that the Spellcraft DC could be reduced by no more than 50% by mitigating factors.  If you wanted a powerful spell, you still had to pay heavily for it.

Epic feats are a grab bag between "awesome, but balanced," "Horrendously broken" and "this wasn't even worth a feat slot at level 1-3."

Really, I feel the monsters were the best parts of Epic design.  Their CR's are off, but still suitable for epic play.  As a bonus, because of the enormous saves, immunities, and spell resistance of epic monsters, beating something down the old-fashioned way becomes much more desirable.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I'm looking for more on the lines of pathfinder advice but any is welcome, because I really would like to know.

Epic Level play has become some what of a forgotten aspect of many games which is a shame.
What are the reasons?

Almost everything that previously was 3.5 D&D seems to have translated well enough, but Epic Level play is still left behind well into pathfinder.
Is there anything good that can be salvaged from it?

Would it be best to have a brand new system to build from?
So, what say you pathfinder/d&d folks?

You might not know the history of all this,
but here's the (ultra) cliff-notes version.
Wotc made Epic assuming the game was linear.
However, the C.O. Board had figured out the game
was absolutely not linear at all;  Epic even worse.
The gonzo gets gonzo-er.  If you like gonzo ...

Pathfinder is a totally separate question.
Are you talking about the backwards compatible PF,
or the Amnesiatic PF is not backwards compatible?
Either way, the answer is the same as 3.5 epic,
even if the methods to it are different.

[Craiconn]

Having played in 3 significant Epic campaigns over the last 12 years .... they were the only (I repeat, the ONLY) campaigns that our group ever played where the collective Enjoyment Factor was almost ZERO, ZILCH.  Our group is sizable (about 10 players ... +/-1 ).  And most of us are inveterate fans and practitioners of CO and TO, when able.   Yet, the sheer bog-down of bookkeeping and forgetting the minutiae of our gear and class abilities ... along with primary spellcasters constantly breaking the game with jaw-dropping campaign-level nuclear bombs ... just made our fun go all pear-shaped.  Quickly. 

I wish I had something positive to lend to the conversation regarding Epic benefits.  Well, there is this .... you do learn to enjoy niggling details of bookkeeping minutiae.  I love that kind of stuff (I pretty much only play Wizards and Archivists), although most don't.  But you have to in order to properly maximize the Epic experience.

[BrokenChord]

Many cons, few pros. Epic Spellcasting and the like doesn't lend itself well to the structured format of D&D 3.5, and as a friend of mine has pointed out to me, the things an Epic character feels and experiences are no longer basic things like fear, pain, and even vanity, but instead things we can only scratch the surface of understanding. They've utterly eclipsed what most people can even try to comprehend, and are totally impossible to truly understand and play realistically. Not to mention, level 20 already steps all over anything remotely near your general "high-fantasy" power level.

I admit I like Epic items, as they make so many more concepts feasible. Also, some people do like having power beyond comprehension that might accidentally Perma-Wipe the server... I mean, end the world. So this can be fun for some.

[Keldar]

The benefits of Epic Level Play are you get to use the Epic stuff.  Stuff that is only Epic because the Epic rules existed and could have been published in normal play without it.  The noncaster material most definitely applies.  You also get to use the word Epic until it loses all meaning.

The detriment is the game system started breaking down long before epic.  The only thing the epic rules did was keep the raw numbers from spreading at as fast a rate as they did pre-epic.  Noncasters get some neat things that they really could have used starting around 10th, while casters get even more ways to wreck the campaign.   Monsters get stupid and limited.

I ran all of one Epic game, it was not memorable.  I've run more Zero level games with more success, including one of my favorite campaigns.  The Epic rules suck.  If you want to continue playing after 20th, I'd think modifying the E6 system would have far more potential than trying to update the Epic rules.  You could even make use of some of the good Epic abilities.  Or roll up Exalted characters and continue the campaign using a system designed for over the top stunts. 

Epic.