Author Topic: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?  (Read 12258 times)

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2014, 03:18:36 AM »
Or roll up Exalted characters and continue the campaign using a system designed for over the top stunts. 

Epic.

My epic spellcasting feat was designed to mimic Exalted's charm system. Tack some extra costs on and call it a day.

Offline Endarire

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2014, 03:29:01 AM »
My experience in running Epic was a campaign that stretched levels 1 to 21 (and probably would have gone into 22 after the final battle).  Everyone had Spell Stowaway: time stop as a bonus feat just because time stop was that powerful.  We also didn't have hordes of minions (or any permanent minions at all, for that matter), nor were we interested in trying to push the game rules to their limit.  No astral projections, no personal demiplanes of awesome via genesis, and only one orbital fortress that was mostly used for one PC's base and not mentioned much.  Epic worked for us for the one time we used it (at level 21, for the final battle) and then we never played Epic again.

I have Epic experience from playing under other GMs.  The first Epic game, we were all new to 3.0 and we made level 30 characters because the GM wanted to use all his books.  We didn't get very far.  Also, the GM was very... fiaty.  What would've been legal rules calls elsewhere he seemed to just change to suit him.  Mind you, I was new, but being grappled by a Bigby's hand should permit me to cast disjunction on it to remove it.

Another Epic game I was in was also very non-Epic feeling.  We were again about level 30, but it was for one night.  We went fighting some high-level mobs on another plane, probably Hell.  Our tactics were, basically, push across the map, slaying everything in our way in melee or such.

I also echo the "what makes it Epic?" sentiment.  By level 10, a Wizard or Sorcerer or Psion can get most the effects he needs to be self-sufficient.  With a level 10 Cleric aiding him, he can do more.  There's only a small number of effects a level 17 Wizard  can do that a level 10 Wizard doesn't already have a basis in, such as gate instead of summon monster V; contingency and planar travel (plane shift, etc.) and simulacrum are the biggest exceptions I can think of off hand.  Also, you can modify many Epic things to work pre-Epic and rid yourself of what you don't like.

Offline Hades

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2014, 03:39:21 AM »
I played in an epic campaign, when we reached 25th level. And no one tool Epic Spellcasting for balance sake.

The most important feel was the "epic" part storywise: we had interaction with demigods and other very powerful beings (made an alliance with Kiaransalee and Graz'zt against Orcus).

Actually, it wasn't so different from very high (17+) levels, maybe 'cause we did a fair amount of optimization (gish using greater mighty wallop on an Executioner's mace, DMM quicken cleric, etc), without trying to "break" the system too much.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2014, 10:53:06 AM »
My long-running gestalt game just leveled to 19th level right now, and I'm planning to take it up to about 25th level.  So far the biggest thing that's making my game break down... Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.  I think my next campaign I'm going to ban immediate action effects...

Similar to what was mentioned above, I have told my players we WILL NOT be making use of Epic Spellcasting.  Improved Spell Capacity + Metamagic is going to be as good as it gets.  I don't foresee all that many new issues, over and above what I'm dealing with right now.

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2014, 10:57:28 AM »
My long-running gestalt game just leveled to 19th level right now, and I'm planning to take it up to about 25th level.  So far the biggest thing that's making my game break down... Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.  I think my next campaign I'm going to ban immediate action effects...

Similar to what was mentioned above, I have told my players we WILL NOT be making use of Epic Spellcasting.  Improved Spell Capacity + Metamagic is going to be as good as it gets.  I don't foresee all that many new issues, over and above what I'm dealing with right now.

All immediate actions? :O

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2014, 11:25:40 AM »
Well, probably spells and spell-likes.  ToB counters aren't that big of a deal.

But Iot7FV's veils (primarily) and greater mirror image (secondarily) are just slowing the game way down, and making it damn near impossible to even challenge the PC's.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2014, 12:07:21 PM »
Well, probably spells and spell-likes.  ToB counters aren't that big of a deal.

But Iot7FV's veils (primarily) and greater mirror image (secondarily) are just slowing the game way down, and making it damn near impossible to even challenge the PC's.
That's fair.  I think part of my implicit sense of fairness is to restrict such things a bit.  I'd be fine if the Beguiler uses GMI -- it's sort of their wheelhouse.  And, the Initiate has thrown a bunch of levels into that one thing.  But, I'd try and cabin it a bit so that not everyone is carrying a handy wand, etc. 

Note, this illustrates to some extent the fact that Epic play and non-Epic aren't all that different.  Though the monsters in the ELH are a serious power-up over monsters just a few CRs lower than them.  I don't have ready examples off-hand, it's been a long time, but I remember there being a huge firepower and numbers jump.

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2014, 12:43:02 PM »
Note, this illustrates to some extent the fact that Epic play and non-Epic aren't all that different. 
Oh, I agree.  It isn't Epic (minus epic spellcasting) that is the problem; it's the stuff from the normal game.

One of my plans for an early-epic adventure will actually strip all this stuff out of play for a few weeks.

I'm going to trick the PC's into an inter-dimensional dungeon (made by Loki, the trickster god, as a punishment) that is completely filled by Energy Transformation Fields.  The fields will eat any spell, spell-like, or supernatural effect the PC's (or foes) try to use, and instead power the spells that are tied to each individual field.  So, each room and hallway will create its own effect when it sucks in spell levels from the PC's.  Due to some of the abilities they'll have (the Saint has a few at will 1st level spells as SLA's) they can slowly explore through the dungeon and figure out what spells are tied to each room.

I'll have them quickly find a room that triggers a low-level curative spell.  They won't be able to heal while in combat elsewhere, but they can return to this room and heal up.  Most importantly, they can't escape or call for help.  After a few days or weeks, people in the outside world will start looking for them, and will be able to scry them and then open a Gate to their location.  But until that time, I'm hoping it will serve as a bit of a break from the normal game, and have a low-level feel to it.  It will also be a bit of a puzzle, as they'll have to experiment to figure out what spells are tied to what rooms.  They can then try to use those rooms and hallways to their advantage, setting up ambushes for the other creatures trapped there.  But initially it will be a bit of a melee grind, because they won't be able to reliably use their spells.

I expect it will be fun, reminiscent of things like the Labyrinth of Madness, where you had to cautiously advance, room by room, and the threat of death was always high.

Their always-on gear will all still work, but their daily buff spells will not (well, they'll find some rooms that can give you buffs, so it can be mitigated somewhat), so I'll have to be careful with saving throw DC's, especially with any save-or-dies.  I have not been able to find any resurrection-type spells that don't have expensive components (which Energy Transformation Field cannot have tied to it), though there is a short-term resurrection spell (1 min/level) that I can put in there.  That's going to be the biggest draw-back of this dungeon; no way to bring someone back from the dead.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2014, 04:47:30 PM »

The most important feel was the "epic" part storywise: we had interaction with demigods and other very powerful beings (made an alliance with Kiaransalee and Graz'zt against Orcus).

I think this is what people think they want, when they "think" of Epic.

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Offline Leviathan

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2014, 06:05:43 PM »
The ELH has a somewhat schizophrenic tone about how epic play should feel. On the one hand, they keep telling you how extraordinarily powerful epic characters are. On the other hand, they include the city of Union, where epic characters are commonplace.

As others have pointed out, if you know what you are doing, you can do just about anything at level 20, and you can do more at level 10 than the heroes of most real-life myths. "Epic" is in some ways an acknowledgement of that, but it comes too late to be truly meaningful. To ordinary humans, it's hard to tell the difference between a 10th-level character and a 30th-level character, because both are so much more powerful than anything else we are used to. There's no story you could tell about epic characters that couldn't be told about lower-level characters instead.

The epic rules, like most parts of D&D, are understood better by their players than by their creators. This has led some players to homebrew changes to the epic rules, or replacements to the epic rules, which are usually better than the original rules. If you search hard enough (or ask politely enough), you can find several replacements for epic spellcasting. Now that the GitP forums are back up, I can link you to the Librim Eternia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247756-Librim-Eternia-Tome-of-Epic-Prestige-(Completed)), a collection of 51 homebrew prestige classes for epic characters. (I've never played with any of these, but they all sound really cool.)

Finally, the treadmill argument. D&D is built around characters taking on level-appropriate encounters. If characters and foes become more powerful at the same rate, then the relative balance of power hasn't changed, and the players don't feel any more powerful than they used to. If the characters become powerful faster than their enemies (or if the enemies' power is fixed), then the game will eventually lose all sense of challenge. D&D can go in either direction, depending on the DM, but neither is desirable. I don't know how other systems handle this, but people seem to really like Exalted for "high-power" games.

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2014, 06:33:38 PM »
There was an actual sourcebook floating around for 'ultra super epic' that someone made that let you scale 3.5 indefinately up (or down, if that's your thing). The Immortal's Handbook. That's where this guy's from.

Ran into problems purely in a numbers sense as beyond bonuses of around 40ish d20 degenerates to 'is your caster level or attack bonus within 20 of this? If not, get owned'. And yeah, high level play took almost all of the superpowers anyway.

The PF capstone idea (you're 20, mess around a bit with your ultimate power if you like) would work nicer if 'reshape reality: the spell' wasn't on most characters lists sooner.

This goes back to 'rebalance the damn spells already!' problem inherent in everything that copies 3.0 too closely, really.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2014, 10:19:46 AM »
The ELH has a somewhat schizophrenic tone about how epic play should feel. On the one hand, they keep telling you how extraordinarily powerful epic characters are. On the other hand, they include the city of Union, where epic characters are commonplace.
Good point!  Although in my epic play, which is not nothing, Union never came up.  Sigil was always in its place, and there ultra-powerful beings are relatively commonplace, but you don't have the beat cop being a 30th level fighter.  Maybe it was just that idea that made us all collectively disregard Union. 

Finally, the treadmill argument ...
Another good point.  This a slight tangent, but I think in any game it's useful to occasionally reintroduce this sense of scale.  It doesn't even necessarily have to be combat encounters, but the sense that PCs, at the appropriate point in the power scale, can affect the world.  Whether this means diverting rivers, building castles in a fortnight, or having kings quake in their boots b/c they realize their entire army can't match them ... just something so that the game doesn't feel the same at all levels and it's just the numbers that are changing.  If the game is the same, but Graz'zt replaces the Goblin Chieftain, then I feel like a lot of opportunities have been missed.

Offline Chrononaut

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2014, 11:30:26 AM »
Well, 'sense of scale' is already in there. You can control the weather at 13th level (14th if your grandparents got jiggy with outsiders). Admittedly that and maybe firestorm are the only "city leveller" spells in core, with a few like Fimbulvter in Frostburn adding more, but that's enough, isn't it? :P

Offline snakeman830

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2014, 12:52:16 PM »
The one time I have used epic material as a DM was a power that teleported an entire city into a dream realm.  The start of the campaign was the PC's witnessing this get used on a city containing a massive celebration, but other than the majority of the city vanishing, they had no idea what happened.  They all managed to get outside the affected area, though.
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2014, 12:58:53 PM »
Well, 'sense of scale' is already in there. You can control the weather at 13th level (14th if your grandparents got jiggy with outsiders). Admittedly that and maybe firestorm are the only "city leveller" spells in core, with a few like Fimbulvter in Frostburn adding more, but that's enough, isn't it? :P
It's in the system, but if you've never got a reason to control the weather, then it isn't in the campaign really.  That was kind of my point.  If the only thing that ever matters is encounters with CR-appropriate enemies, then Fimbulwinter, or the Storm with 1000 Legs (and come, on what sounds awesomer than that?!) ends up being besides the point.

I'm overstating things a bit, players will find uses for these abilities or inject their own sense of scale, but you readily get the idea. 

Offline Hades

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2014, 01:20:24 PM »
The ELH has a somewhat schizophrenic tone about how epic play should feel. On the one hand, they keep telling you how extraordinarily powerful epic characters are. On the other hand, they include the city of Union, where epic characters are commonplace.
Good point!  Although in my epic play, which is not nothing, Union never came up.  Sigil was always in its place, and there ultra-powerful beings are relatively commonplace, but you don't have the beat cop being a 30th level fighter.  Maybe it was just that idea that made us all collectively disregard Union. 

I can't agree more. If everyone you meet and their mother are epic level characters, I think that you just lose the "feel" of epicness. Imho union is just a waste of space. It would have been MUCH better a chapter about Sigil, THE planar metropolis.

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2014, 02:06:06 PM »
I don't know how other systems handle this, but people seem to really like Exalted for "high-power" games.

It's more of an intro fluff thing. Exalted characters are supposed to be reincarnated god-slayers destined to reshape reality at their whims or something like that, while D&D characters are supposed to be mercenaries taking orders from others. That game's front is as shiny as it gets.

Alas, rules-wise, exalted is a mess even worst than D&D. It's extremely easy to have your character one-shotted if you don't load up in defenses, and then it degenerates into padded sumo, and screw you if you want to play any concept other than somebody wielding an oversized sword (tecnically there's options for those others, but oversized sword stabbing just outshines everything else too easily).

Heck, even the quests players actually do are that "epic". The basic exalted core book starting quests consist of stuff like going after mundane human thugs and facing medium-sized monstrous spiders, and that's something D&D characters have been doing for decades. Low level D&D characters at that. And the top Exalted NPCs will shred your character to pieces if you even look at them wrong way.

I also fondly remember one exalted fangirl boasting about her "epic" campaign where the biggest problem she faced was... Getting a water supply to her village. No, they weren't trapped in the plane of fire or anything like that, just a regular desert.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 02:07:47 PM by oslecamo »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2014, 04:33:57 PM »
Quote
I also fondly remember one exalted fangirl boasting about her "epic" campaign where the biggest problem she faced was... Getting a water supply to her village. No, they weren't trapped in the plane of fire or anything like that, just a regular desert.

That's just not trying at all. : |

Though I think it gives an indication of where the scale's MEANT to end up that Creation, at somwhere around 3% of its original size, is ENORMOUSLY larger than the surface area of the Earth.

Offline Hades

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Re: Pros and Cons of Epic Level Play?
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2014, 03:01:11 AM »
I also fondly remember one exalted fangirl boasting about her "epic" campaign where the biggest problem she faced was... Getting a water supply to her village. No, they weren't trapped in the plane of fire or anything like that, just a regular desert.

That's a nice plot for low-middle level chars, but imho epic level play should be it even in the sense of scope. More a "save the world/multiverse" thing.