Please help me with the house cat argument

[Tonymitsu]

I've often read that one of the biggest complaints regarding design in D&D is that a house cat will kill a first level commoner most of the time.  Well I happened across the stats for a cat in the back of my Monster Manual for the first time today and... I'm not entirely sure I understand how that's possible.

Let's assume a household encounter with ideal conditions for the cat:
1) the cat has +0 BAB, same as the commoner
2) do NPC classes not get max HP at level 1?  The book says to treat them exactly like any other class.  Oh well, even without that a commoner will average 2 hp, same as the cat

According to the monster manual, cats prefer to sneak up on their prey.  So let's say it's midday, the commoner is working in the kitchen preparing food, and the cat sneaks up behind him and prepares to strike.  The cat has a superior Hide check, (even on a 1 there's only a 30% chance it will be spotted), but with a +6 to Move Silently, he only has a 40% chance of not being heard by a particularly inattentive owner with no ranks in listen (35% chance against an average one), but let's assume he catches his owner unaware.

For the cats surprise round, it executes a partial charge for a +6 to hit with his claw attack.  Against an average commoner this gives it an 80% chance to connect for 1 point of damage, and a 5% chance of a critical hit for 2 points of damage.  In either case it has zero chance of dropping the commoner before combat begins, and an exceedingly low chance of putting the commoner in significant danger, so let's assume the cat connected for 1 point.

The owner turns to see what is clearly a feral cat, and, armed with a kitchen knife, prepares to defend himself.  The cat has only a +2 to Initiative from its Dexterity, giving it a 10% chance of going before the average commoner.  Assuming the cat does win out, it can proceed with it's full attack routine: two claws at a +4 and a bite at a -1, the claws have a 75% chance of hitting and the bite has a 45% chance and the cat must succeed with at least two of these attacks in order to incapacitate the commoner before he has a chance to retaliate.  Discounting critical hits, it has roughly a 78% chance of doing that.  Good odds, but certainly not guaranteed.

However, assuming the cat does not win the Initiative roll:
Since the cat is a tiny creature with a reach of 0 ft, it must enter the commoner's space in order to attack it, and it does not threaten adjacent squares.  If the commoner wins initiative, it takes a 5-foot step away from the cat and attacks it with the knife.  With his BAB of +0 he has a 45% chance of hitting the cat's modified AC of 12(the -2 from charging doesn't go away until the start of the cats turn).  If he hits, even with an average damage roll of 2 the cat is immediately disabled: it moves at only half speed and it can only take a single move or standard action each round, and any standard action puts it to -1 hp.
But let's assume the commoner misses.  Since it is too close to charge, the best the cat can do is move in to attack.  Entering the commoner's square provokes an attack of opportunity, with a 35% chance of success to once again incur the penalties above.  So even with surprise, only 1 round after losing initiative there is about a 50% chance the cat has been disabled and a 5% chance the commoner has been.

Now granted, an unarmed commoner the odds shift more in the cats favor.  But I would be more surprised to find that going up against a creature with natural weapons when you have no weapons of your own resulted in anything else.  The instant the commoner picks up even an improvised weapon it becomes far from a sure thing.  In an actual D&D game, with all the myriad of possible mitigating circumstances, I find it very unlikely that a house cat that randomly attacks it's owner would win.

...Am I just thinking about this too much?

[eggynack]

I'm pretty sure that the commoner would have average rather than max HP, because they're an NPC. Anyway, it seems like your analysis answers your own question. Round one, the cat enters the commoner's square and hits for, say, an average of .75 damage, leaving the commoner at 1.25 HP. Next, the commoner 5-foot steps back, and attacks with his spear for about 1.575 damage, leaving our noble feline at .425 HP. Subsequently, the cat five-foot steps in, and full attacks for enough average damage to drop the commoner with his first two claw attacks alone. The third attack deals an average of .5 damage, incidentally.

In fact, that's an additionally interesting little result right there. If the commoner attacks first, he will fail to drop the cat with his hit, and the cat will step in and drop the commoner immediately with 2 average damage. This is also assuming the best weapon possible on the commoner's part, pretty much. If we go with your improvised weapon, then the commoner is running a -4 to hit, meaning only a 15% chance of a successful hit. Not exactly a good fight for the commoner. These are just broad strokes numbers, without serious statistical and tactical analysis, but I think that tactical analysis actually favors the cat, and the numbers clearly support cat victory.

[ketaro]

I'm pretty sure that the commoner would have average rather than max HP, because they're an NPC. Anyway, it seems like your analysis answers your own question. Round one, the cat enters the commoner's square and hits for, say, an average of .75 damage, leaving the commoner at 1.25 HP. Next, the commoner 5-foot steps back, and attacks with his spear for about 1.575 damage, leaving our noble feline at .425 HP. Subsequently, the cat five-foot steps in, and full attacks for enough average damage to drop the commoner with his first two claw attacks alone. The third attack deals an average of .5 damage, incidentally.

In fact, that's an additionally interesting little result right there. If the commoner attacks first, he will fail to drop the cat with his hit, and the cat will step in and drop the commoner immediately with 2 average damage. This is also assuming the best weapon possible on the commoner's part, pretty much. If we go with your improvised weapon, then the commoner is running a -4 to hit, meaning only a 15% chance of a successful hit. Not exactly a good fight for the commoner. These are just broad strokes numbers, without serious statistical and tactical analysis, but I think that tactical analysis actually favors the cat, and the numbers clearly support cat victory.

You completely forgot the fact that the cat provokes an AoO when it moves into the commoner's square to attack thus giving the commoner the chance the drop the cat before it gets it's full attack.

[eggynack]

You completely forgot the fact that the cat provokes an AoO when it moves into the commoner's square to attack thus giving the commoner the chance the drop the cat before it gets it's full attack.

Not really. I'm pretty sure you can 5-foot step into the square, which would resolve the problem pretty efficiently. 

[ketaro]

Nope. Tiny creatures always have to move into the enemies square to attack them if they lack reach. It's not the 5ft free step, it's the moving into their square that is provoking regardless of the free action doing it.

[eggynack]

Nope. Tiny creatures always have to move into the enemies square to attack them if they lack reach. It's not the 5ft free step, it's the moving into their square that is provoking regardless of the free action doing it.

That's plausible, but I'm not sure that it works out as cleanly as you're making it out to be. If you can 5-foot step into an opponent's square, and it looks like you can, then it seems that the 5-foot step's ability to never provoke an attack of opportunity would take some form of precedence. There's certainly nothing explicit in the entering a space rules that would stop that from being true. I'd mark it down as ambiguous, in the absence of more evidence. I don't think that either rule has some ultimate claim to specificity.

[ketaro]

SRD, or PHB section in the combat chapter titled Big and Little Creatures in Combat.

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures

Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

[eggynack]

SRD, or PHB section in the combat chapter titled Big and Little Creatures in Combat.

I saw it. However, to quote the text of 5-foot steps, "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." They're contradictory rules, in other words, and I'm not sure which takes precedence.

[ketaro]

A 5 ft step normally never provokes an AoO. A 5 ft step also does not account for taking said step into an opponents square, because medium creatures cannot do that normally and when they can they usually provoke for it, and most combat rules tend to assume medium then mention differences for alternate sized characters. As well, taking a 5 ft step and moving into a creature's square are two different actions here being done simultaneously by the cat. Yes, the 5ft step the cat is taking is not provoking, but trying to share the same space as the commoner is provoking.

[eggynack]

A 5 ft step normally never provokes an AoO. A 5 ft step also does not account for taking said step into an opponents square, because medium creatures cannot do that normally and when they can they usually provoke for it, and most combat rules tend to assume medium then mention differences for alternate sized characters. As well, taking a 5 ft step and moving into a creature's square are two different actions here being done simultaneously by the cat. Yes, the 5ft step the cat is taking is not provoking, but trying to share the same space as the commoner is provoking.

You're using a lot of induction and extrapolation here, and it doesn't look all that valid. It looks like it is moving into the space that provokes, rather than trying to share the space, or else you would just keep provoking every round or something. As is, most combat rules tend to assume normal movement, and then mention differences for 5-foot steps. Neither this, nor the size restriction you've mentioned, has occurred. What you could do is actually prove that moving into an opponent's square and taking the 5-foot step necessary to do so are separate actions, or at least separate game objects, but I can't see much support for that.

[ketaro]

Well there are several actions which are other actions grouped together. A Charge for example is 2 upwards of 3 actions combined into 1 action.

Of course I realize I'm attempting to make arguments against loopholes and lack of detail that the high-optimization world of this place just eats right up.

[Maat Mons]

Let's look closer at the odds of the cat sneaking up on the commoner. 

The Monster Manual doesn't correctly list the cat's statistics.  Cat's don't have a +1 base attack bonus, so they don't qualify for weapon finesse.  Wizards of the Coast addressed this in the errata.  Cats now have weapon finesse as a bonus feat.  (Creatures don't need to meet the prerequisites of bonus feats.)  Of course, cats still need one regular feat, so the errata gives them the stealthy feat, which gives them an extra +2 to both hide and move silently. 

Spot and listen checks get suffer a -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance.  Since the cat has to move into the commoner's square to attack, he needs to get within 25 feet before he starts his partial charge.  That's -2. 

The commoner certainly seems "distracted" as you've described him, and that adds another -5 penalty to spot and listen. 

The cat's hide modifier is +16, and the commoner's spot modifier is at best 4, from skill ranks, but down to -3 from penalties.  If the cat rolls a 1, he gets 17, and if the commoner rolls a 20, he gets 17.  On a tie, opposed skill checks go to the character with the higher modifier.  So, the commoner has a 0% chance of spotting the cat. 

The cat's move silently modifier is +8, and the commoner's listen modifier is at best 4, from skill ranks, but down to -3 from penalties.  Now, the fact that 2 d20s are being rolled makes the results cluster around the middle.  This results in the cat having a 91% chance of going unheard.  Go ahead and check the 400 possible outcomes if you want.  You'll find the cat wins in 364 of them.  (Or just have the computer tell you the answer, like I did.) 

[altpersona]

after the surprise round the cat withdrawals and attempts to rehide.

it then attempts a new sneak attack.

also, cats often attack from cover. such as the tall grass mentioned in the description.

if cover is available the cat may use it instead of withdrawing to rehide.

[ketaro]

Go ahead and check the 400 possible outcomes if you want.  You'll find the cat wins in 364 of them.  (Or just have the computer tell you the answer, like I did.) 

So what you're saying is that their are 36 dead cats being cooked for dinner by Mr. Commoner?

[PsyBomb]

Go ahead and check the 400 possible outcomes if you want.  You'll find the cat wins in 364 of them.  (Or just have the computer tell you the answer, like I did.) 

So what you're saying is that their are 36 dead cats being cooked for dinner by Mr. Commoner?

As opposed to the 364 dead commoners being eaten by kitties.

[Tonymitsu]

I saw it. However, to quote the text of 5-foot steps, "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity." They're contradictory rules, in other words, and I'm not sure which takes precedence.

Table 8-2, pg 141, of the PHB is the list of most of the possible combat actions.  When describing whether or not they provoke AoO's there's a reference note that says the following:  "Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."

From this I think we can safely conclude that the intent was that the act of taking a 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity under normal circumstances.
However, the act of entering an opponents square is an entirely different, unrelated, action to taking a 5-foot step.  Pg 151 (Big and Little Creatures in Combat) says that Tiny creatures must enter an opponents square to attack in melee, and that this always provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent.
So regardless of how the cat does it, he provokes an attack of opportunity from the commoner when he enters his square to attack him.

Lots of math

Interesting.  I didn't know that about the errata or that bit about opposed skill checks either.
So it seems the cat is almost guaranteed a surprise round in favorable circumstances, and has an excellent chance of getting one the rest of the time.
Still it only has a 5% chance of disabling the commoner in that surprise round, and then a 10% chance of finishing the job before retaliation.  I guess I was just expecting a little bit of a better performance when the claim is "This system is borked, house cats regularly kill people."

after the surprise round the cat withdrawals and attempts to rehide.

it then attempts a new sneak attack.

also, cats often attack from cover. such as the tall grass mentioned in the description.

if cover is available the cat may use it instead of withdrawing to rehide.

I think you might be giving the cat a bit too much credit.  That's a little much for the tactics I would expect from a creature with an Intelligence of 2.  I highly doubt it's thought process would be anything other than "Attack it, I'm fine." and "Run away, I'm about to die."

[altpersona]

have you ever owned a cat?   

[awaken_D_M_golem]

 Go ahead and check the 400 possible outcomes if you want.  You'll find the cat wins in 364 of them.  (Or just have the computer tell you the answer, like I did.) 

So what you're saying is that their are 36 dead cats being cooked for dinner by Mr. Commoner?

  ... How DARE you !!

As opposed to the 364 dead commoners being eaten by kitties.

Oh, that's better.
 

[spacemonkey555]

Cats were entirely lethal for the average npc human in 1st and 2nd edition, that's where the meme originated. 3e peasants got a huge boost but it's still an unreasonably dangerous encounter, due to this:

Damage from an attack is always at least 1 point, even if a subtraction from a die roll reduces the result to 0 or lower.

There should be an alternative system for low risk attackers, something like roll an x-sided die, if you roll the highest #, do 1 point of damage. Use a smaller die for the strongest of the less than lethal creatures, a larger die for the wimpy ones. Instead we have housecats killing humans through attrition.

[eggynack]

Table 8-2, pg 141, of the PHB is the list of most of the possible combat actions.  When describing whether or not they provoke AoO's there's a reference note that says the following:  "Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity."

And, as you are likely well aware, none of those actions is this action, and there's no external implication that moving into a square is a separate action. Possibly more importantly, and definitely less obviously, it doesn't look like any of those actions, apart from a 5-foot step, can be taken with the use of a 5-foot step.