Please help me with the house cat argument

[Amechra]

I just want to chime in by saying that I ran a one-shot where everyone played average commoners and the villains were housecats (led by a Magebred tom cat.)

Half the party died within the first round; the only reason the others survived if because they rolled well.

That AC 15 and +4 attack bonus is pretty strong against Mr. Commoner...

[Raineh Daze]

I guess the big question is 'how exactly is a tiny creature going to be moving into someone's square other than moving normally'? If they're moving normally, then a 5-foot step should work...

[Maat Mons]

If I understand correctly, on a critical hit with its claw, the cat rolls 2d2-8 then applies the "minimum 1" rule, meaning he still only deals 1 point of damage.  For the bite attack, its 2d3-8.  So, critical hits don't help the cat at all. 

If the commoner can take the cloak of the obyrith feat (Fiendish Codex I, p85), he gains damage reduction 1/lawful.  This makes him cat-proof. 

If the commoner can take the deformity (tongue) feat (Heroes of Horror, p121), he gains blindsense out to 30 feet.  Hide and move silently automatically fail against blindsense. 

Deformity (tongue) requires willing deformity (Heroes of Horror, p125), so fitting that and cloak of obyrith on the same commoner requires 1 more feat than a 1st-level human gets.  Fortunately, swearing service to an elder evil gives a bonus vile feat (Elder Evils, p10), and both deformity (tongue) and willing deformity are vile feats. 

Sure, you have to have the taint of a demonic ancestry in your blood, grotesquely mutilate yourself, and pledge yourself to the destruction of all that lives, but that's a small price to pay to run off a stray cat.  And hey, once Atropus unmakes the world, there won't be any cats. 

[Raineh Daze]

Fairly certain that if you've gone that far, you're not going to satisfy yourself with being a commoner any more.

[Tonymitsu]

If I understand correctly, on a critical hit with its claw, the cat rolls 2d2-8 then applies the "minimum 1" rule, meaning he still only deals 1 point of damage.  For the bite attack, its 2d3-8.  So, critical hits don't help the cat at all.

The official rule to resolve critical hits is to roll the weapon damage the number of times indicated in the critical hit multiplier and apply all modifiers to each roll to find the total damage.
I assumed that included the minimum 1 modifier, thus I interpreted it as 1d2-4(Min 1) and 1d2-4(Min 1) for a total of 2.

If the commoner can take the cloak of the obyrith feat (Fiendish Codex I, p85), he gains damage reduction 1/lawful.  This makes him cat-proof. 

If the commoner can take the deformity (tongue) feat (Heroes of Horror, p121), he gains blindsense out to 30 feet.  Hide and move silently automatically fail against blindsense. 

Deformity (tongue) requires willing deformity (Heroes of Horror, p125), so fitting that and cloak of obyrith on the same commoner requires 1 more feat than a 1st-level human gets.  Fortunately, swearing service to an elder evil gives a bonus vile feat (Elder Evils, p10), and both deformity (tongue) and willing deformity are vile feats. 

Sure, you have to have the taint of a demonic ancestry in your blood, grotesquely mutilate yourself, and pledge yourself to the destruction of all that lives, but that's a small price to pay to run off a stray cat.  And hey, once Atropus unmakes the world, there won't be any cats.

I think there may be a small chance this goes beyond the scope of the thread.  At the very least it would certainly not be an "average" commoner any more.   

And, as you are likely well aware, none of those actions is this action, and there's no external implication that moving into a square is a separate action. Possibly more importantly, and definitely less obviously, it doesn't look like any of those actions, apart from a 5-foot step, can be taken with the use of a 5-foot step.

Of course there is.  The fact that paragraph under the heading Tiny Creatures in combat is in a completely separate section of the combat rules, several pages away from 5-foot step, very heavily implies that act of entering an opponents square it's own action and the AoO provoked from it is an entirely different one than what would or would not be provoked by simple movement.

have you ever owned a cat?   

Yes, however I will concede that it never once tried to kill me.

[eggynack]

Of course there is.  The fact that paragraph under the heading Tiny Creatures in combat is in a completely separate section of the combat rules, several pages away from 5-foot step, very heavily implies that act of entering an opponents square it's own action and the AoO provoked from it is an entirely different one than what would or would not be provoked by simple movement.

Something being in a separate section of the book does not necessarily make it a separate action. I don't even think it implies it. Anyway, as long as we're in the implication zone, which is the greatest possible thing your argument would be likely to prove, the situation is RAW ambiguous.

[Raineh Daze]

The situation is also functionally equivalent to a medium creature having to approach something with 10' or greater reach.

[ketaro]

Of course there is.  The fact that paragraph under the heading Tiny Creatures in combat is in a completely separate section of the combat rules, several pages away from 5-foot step, very heavily implies that act of entering an opponents square it's own action and the AoO provoked from it is an entirely different one than what would or would not be provoked by simple movement.

Something being in a separate section of the book does not necessarily make it a separate action. I don't even think it implies it. Anyway, as long as we're in the implication zone, which is the greatest possible thing your argument would be likely to prove, the situation is RAW ambiguous.

Going by that explanation, all actions that can be taken in and out of combat are now the same action.

[eggynack]

Going by that explanation, all actions that can be taken in and out of combat are now the same action.

I do not see how that follows. Some things are listed as actions, separate from other actions. This is listed as moving, so it can generally be assumed to be a standard function of standard movement. It's the same way that moving into difficult terrain isn't made of two separate actions. This rule doesn't even list moving into a space as a separate form of move action. It's just a thing you do which provokes.

[Gazzien]

The situation is also functionally equivalent to a medium creature having to approach something with 10' or greater reach.

Can we just... this..?

The bit about tiny creatures provoking was probably to remind players because it's an odd thing to remember that someone stepping inside your normal attack range is leaving a threatened square. Especially because - in all my games - I've only seen two characters, ever, with reach weapons.

[Captnq]

I work at a cat shelter. When handling the feral cats, you put on chainmail everything. They can do the matrix thing and run up walls, off cages, you, light fixures, bookshelves, whatever. Then when they bite down, they never net go and tear you up with their hind claws. We had someone need to go to the emergency room after trying to pet a feral. I've had bones fractured through layered leather and chain.
My finger is STILL healing.

Then there's the diseases. Every feral cat needs +disease added to the damage, because we've had more then one volenteer get taken down by infected cat bites.

Yes.

Your average housecat could not kill a human.
Your average feral cat could kill a human, I believe that. No problem.

[Kethrian]

Something thing to add, that cat is taking a -20 to its hide check in order to make that attack, if it has concealment the whole way.  If not, it does not have the ranks necessary to move even 5 feet without concealment and remain hidden.

Also, entering another creature's space is not, in itself, an action.  It is a provoking circumstance entirely separate from the action taken.  As such, even teleporting or the like will provoke when used to enter another creature's space.  And, if the action itself (moving as a move action and not tumbling, for instance) can also provoke, so it's possible for 2 AoO provocations from a single movement.

So yeah, the commoner might stand a fighting chance, if he happens to be armed at the time.  The cat, of course, can always strike when the poor guy doesn't have a weapon at hand ...

[Unbeliever]

Semi-orthogonally, back in AD&D I did actually see a character killed by small children with rocks.  That's what 3 or 6 hit points will get you.

[snakeman830]

Something thing to add, that cat is taking a -20 to its hide check in order to make that attack, if it has concealment the whole way.  If not, it does not have the ranks necessary to move even 5 feet without concealment and remain hidden.

Doesn't need to.  It just needs to be hidden until (not during) it makes its first move, since the Commoner doesn't get to act in the surprise round (and doesn't get his Dex bonus to AC, though I doubt that's really relevant).  Since the kitty is more likely than not to win initiative, it's quite possible that its second turn is still before the commoner can retaliate and will likely drop him.

[TuggyNE]

If I understand correctly, on a critical hit with its claw, the cat rolls 2d2-8 then applies the "minimum 1" rule, meaning he still only deals 1 point of damage.  For the bite attack, its 2d3-8.  So, critical hits don't help the cat at all.

The official rule to resolve critical hits is to roll the weapon damage the number of times indicated in the critical hit multiplier and apply all modifiers to each roll to find the total damage.
I assumed that included the minimum 1 modifier, thus I interpreted it as 1d2-4(Min 1) and 1d2-4(Min 1) for a total of 2.

"Minimum 1" is not a modifier by the definition ("Any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll"), so it's applied at the end. Maat Mons is correct, and all hits by cats do 1 damage no matter what.

[Kasz]

What about...

Don't Mind Me [Feline]

    You have a knack for maneuvering unnoticed into position for an attack.

    Prerequisite: Reach 0 feet.

    Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you enter an opponent's square.

    Normal: A creature with a reach of 0 feet provokes an attack of opportunity upon entering an opponent's square.

Source: Fabulous Cats!

[FlaminCows]

I think picking feats for the cat is similar to picking feats for the commoner: it is no longer the "typical cat", so it doesn't count. To make it a fair comparison it would have to be the cat as detailed in the SRD versus a commoner as described in the DMG. So the cat will have Stealthy and Weapon Finesse only, and the commoner will have some non-combat-related feats.

Most NPCs take feats such as Endurance, Skill Focus, Track, and other noncombat-related abilities.

The "fabulous cats" web enhancement is appropriate for advanced cats or feline player characters, or prominent kitty NPCs.

[Raineh Daze]

I think picking feats for the cat is similar to picking feats for the commoner: it is no longer the "typical cat", so it doesn't count. To make it a fair comparison it would have to be the cat as detailed in the SRD versus a commoner as described in the DMG. So the cat will have Stealthy and Weapon Finesse only, and the commoner will have some non-combat-related feats.

Most NPCs take feats such as Endurance, Skill Focus, Track, and other noncombat-related abilities.

The "fabulous cats" web enhancement is appropriate for advanced cats or feline player characters, or prominent kitty NPCs.

All cats are prominent. They will not allow you to think otherwise.

[Janthkin]

The cat has only a +2 to Initiative from its Dexterity, giving it a 10% chance of going before the average commoner.  Assuming the cat does win out, it can proceed with it's full attack routine: two claws at a +4 and a bite at a -1, the claws have a 75% chance of hitting and the bite has a 45% chance and the cat must succeed with at least two of these attacks in order to incapacitate the commoner before he has a chance to retaliate.  Discounting critical hits, it has roughly a 78% chance of doing that.  Good odds, but certainly not guaranteed.

Your initiative math is off - it's not a 10% chance of going before the average commoner.  Effectively, the cat has the equivalent of a +3 on an opposed d20 roll (because the cat will win on ties, owing to having the higher dex).  If both were equal, there'd be a 50/50 chance that the cat would go first. 

As the GitP shirt says: "Win initiative, win it all."

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Thanks Kasz. I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that.

Sure, you have to have the taint of a demonic ancestry in your blood, grotesquely mutilate yourself, and pledge yourself to the destruction of all that lives, but that's a small price to pay to run off a stray cat.