Lawful Slaad?

[Hades]

Ok, it may be a "logic bomb" for the creature, but I think that somehow, somewhere in the multiverse, there "may" be a lawful slaad.

Slaads, as we know, are incarnations of chaos. But if "all slaads are chaotic", that would be a "constant", and constant are arguably a "lawful" thing.

So, to truly be the essence of chaos, imho at least one slaad in the multiverse has to be lawful. After all there are already things like fallen celestials, or rogue modron (ok, a rogue modron can still be lawful  ^^').

What do you think about it?

[Unbeliever]

Needlessly philosophical and a little silly.

But, there are also those helms that flip alignments.  And, wish spells, etc.

[Raineh Daze]

What would a Lawful Slaaad even do? @_@

[wotmaniac]

I like the "chaotic = insane = giant frog" explination:

Ethics Option 2: A Question of Sanity.

Some DMs will want Law and Chaos to mean essentially "Sane" and "Insane". That's fine, but it doesn't mean that Chaos is funny. In fact, insanity is generally about the least funny thing you could possibly imagine. An insane person reacts inappropriately to their surroundings. That doesn't mean that they perform unexpected actions, that's just surrealist. And Paladins are totally permitted to enjoy non sequitur based humor and art. See, insanity is when you perform the same action over and over again and expect different results.

In this model we get a coherent explanation for why, when all the forces of Evil are composed of a multitude of strange nightmarish creatures, and the forces of Good have everything from a glowing patch of light to a winged snake tailed woman, every single soldier in the army of Chaos is a giant frog. This is because in this model Limbo is a place that is totally insane. It's a place where the answer to every question really is "Giant Frog". Creatures of Chaos then proceed to go to non Chaotically-aligned planes and are disappointed and confused when doors have to be pushed and pulled to open and entrance cannot be achieved by "Giant Frog".

If Chaos is madness, it's not "spontaneous", it's "non-functional". Actual adaptability is sane. Adapting responses to stimuli is what people are supposed to do. For reactions to be sufficiently inappropriate to qualify as insanity, one has to go pretty far into one's own preconceptions. Actual mental illness is very sad and traumatic just to watch as an outside observer. Actually living that way is even worse. It is strongly suggested therefore, that you don't go this route at all. It's not that you can't make D&D work with sanity and insanity as the core difference between Law and Chaos, it's that in doing so you're essentially making the Law vs. Chaos choice into the choice between good and bad. That and there is a certain segment of the roleplaying community that cannot differentiate absurdist humor from insanity and will insist on doing annoying things in the name of humor. And we hate those people.

Any questions?

[kitep]

But a lawful slaad would obey the rule of "all slaad are chaotic"   

[Unbeliever]

But a lawful slaad would obey the rule of "all slaad are chaotic"   

And disappears in a puff of logic.  Shortly thereafter the universe would be paralyzed trying to figure out if god could create a stone it couldn't lift.  Until Mordenkainen scored a critical check on his Craft (Philosophical Theory) check and invented paraconsistent logic. 


Is it possible to just put all this alignment talk to bed already?  Or, would that cause D&D forums and grognards to be sucked into a wormhole? 

There have been some cool bits that have come out of D&D's crazy take on cosmology and morality.  The Blood War springs to mind.  But, there are two things that make these discussions more a distraction than anything else. 

(1)  Is this really a helpful heuristic to the game?  Is Lawful a good tagline to describe a character or a society's outlook?  Or, would "honorable" or "hidebound" or "traditional" or "rule oriented" be just much much better?

(2)  All of this stuff suffers from what I guess you'd call adaptation decay.  The above dismissive comments are coming from someone who is a huge fan of both Michael Moorcock and Warhammer 40k.  Where Chaos (and Law in Moorcock) are huge active forces that are driving the plot.  D&D co-opted that terminology, but not much else.  So, you've got this weird sense where Law and Chaos should be in conflict, but they've been emptied of their real distinct personality.  Chaos, in the above (Warhammer having essentially just cribbed from Moorcock) has personality, it's spontaneity and madness and change and horror and some cool iconography.  I cannot help but feel if D&D's law/chaos axis was not so bloodless and had more character it'd be both more interesting and have a kind of inborn answer to these things.  Even if that answer was "Blood for the Blood God and don't think too hard!" 

[awaken_D_M_golem]

4e had a Skill Challenge called Arguing With A Slaadi (or something like that).  It is no fault of the Slaad that 4e Skill Challenges are semi-auto-win (Lawful!!).

2e Planescape had a section of Arcadia (transdimensionally) slide into Mechanus.  The Camp was forcing Outsiders to be LGN, hence the whole area goes LN.  There was a specifically mentioned Demon there ; you could near assume a Slaad would suffer the same thing.

SRD doesn't have the exact wording that a 3e/3.5e Creature with Always Alignment X, does not necessarily have to be that if blah blah blah happens.  I forget where that reference is.


My kitty avatar arrrrgues the fine points of Chaos within itself and wins ; Pirates be damned.

[kitep]

MM, p305

Alignment: This line in a monster entry gives the alignment
that the creature is most likely to have. Every entry includes a
qualifier that indicates how broadly that alignment applies to all
monsters of that kind.
Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The
creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or
come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals
to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique
or rare exceptions.

Though FWIW, slaadi are listed as "usually chaotic neutral", though I get the impression that "chaotic" should be always and the "neutral" is where the "usually" comes from.

[SolEiji]

Become a theoretical scientist, and work in these strange and alien lands in an attempt to discover why the rest of the universe doesn't giant frog.  It's so focused on its studies it is no longer spontaneous/random/whatever chaos version you're running with.

[Keldar]

Clearly the answer is that Slaad become Lawful at random.  A sudden need for something, anything to be stable suddenly fills them like madness.  They lash out, stamping their will on the surrounding Limbo.  Creating rigid, defined areas of perfect order, like giant Catholic school cafeterias.  Ordering their brethren around, trying to force them to fulfill the sudden, random need for order.  Screaming when the toilet seat is left up.  Stacking their dice into perfect little towers, with 4 always on top.  And all in all, bringing some much needed disruption to the predictable sameness of Limbo.

And then at random they get better.  The need passed, and go back to being Chaotic Toad. 

(What's that, Chaotic is supposed to be the insane alignment, not Lawful?    )

[awaken_D_M_golem]

But a lawful slaad would obey the rule of "all slaad are chaotic"   

And disappears in a puff of logic.  Shortly thereafter the universe would be paralyzed trying to figure out if god could create a stone it couldn't lift.  Until Mordenkainen scored a critical check on his Craft (Philosophical Theory) check and invented paraconsistent logic.
Is it possible to just put all this alignment talk to bed already?  Or, would that cause D&D forums and grognards to be sucked into a wormhole? 
There have been some cool bits that have come out of D&D's crazy take on cosmology and morality.  The Blood War springs to mind.  But, there are two things that make these discussions more a distraction than anything else. 
(1)  Is this really a helpful heuristic to the game?  Is Lawful a good tagline to describe a character or a society's outlook?  Or, would "honorable" or "hidebound" or "traditional" or "rule oriented" be just much much better?
(2)  All of this stuff suffers from what I guess you'd call adaptation decay.  The above dismissive comments are coming from someone who is a huge fan of both Michael Moorcock and Warhammer 40k.  Where Chaos (and Law in Moorcock) are huge active forces that are driving the plot.  D&D co-opted that terminology, but not much else.  So, you've got this weird sense where Law and Chaos should be in conflict, but they've been emptied of their real distinct personality.  Chaos, in the above (Warhammer having essentially just cribbed from Moorcock) has personality, it's spontaneity and madness and change and horror and some cool iconography.  I cannot help but feel if D&D's law/chaos axis was not so bloodless and had more character it'd be both more interesting and have a kind of inborn answer to these things.  Even if that answer was "Blood for the Blood God and don't think too hard!"

Libertad's Alignment series is very interesting, for this sort of idea.

While there have been varying definitions of Law and Chaos over the editions/decades, is does hold to be useful enough.  Consider a reduced approach that blurs the axis'es with Good and Evil too, like 4e.  They have Lawful Good and Good as different, Chaotic Evil and Evil as different, further calling Non-aligned whatever the rest "should" be called.  Even then people were confused about the details.  I think this shows they're on the right track, that the Alignments (and Planes) are NOT etched in stone never changing things.

With 4e you can have All War All The Time (archeron) lumped in with Anarchists (nice guy Chaotics), lumped in with Int 1 or 2 natural Animals.  Modrons are confused and debate whether to be Isolationists, go hang out with Paladins and their loathsome helping of the poor, or slightly expand their definition of Modron-ness to include formerly mechanus races.

[Unbeliever]

I am compelled to point out that all the above post does is point out that 4E's system is worse than the previous alignment systems. 

That is not what we'd call a ringing endorsement.  It also doesn't illustrate that some preset axes is more useful than, say, a few descriptive adjectives.

[Hades]

I like that "objective good & evil" view 'cause in D&D we have a cosmology that incarnates those traits. We've to remember that "good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos".

Unlike in the real world, in D&D we have dragons, elves, gobilns, etc (ok, we have "trolls" even in the real world, but that's another story ). And also, we have a "tangible" good, evil, chaos, and law.

That's why I like the "nine alignment" system in D&D. It's part of the multiverse... Every one of the Outer Planes is defined by the alignment. The Abyss, for instance, is literally "made of Chaos and Evil".

(What's that, Chaotic is supposed to be the insane alignment, not Lawful?    )

Lol, that's nice XD. And, thinking about it... Imho, a character like Raymond Babbitt (the char played by Dustin Hoffman) is a perfect example of a "lawful insane" person. I think that severe case of "nevous rituals" are more a "lawful" thing, than a "chaotic" one.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

kitep = late thanks.

No, unbeliever you are right.
However, disagreements about Alignment happen no matter
how simple or complex (or stupid) that system gets made.

2nding Hades on Keldar's quote.
But you should know, that Bytopia is the Insanity not anything else.
It's an insidious insanity claiming that hard work is the solution to everything
with the only difference of "opinion" being whether the Weather is nice or stormy.
I don't find Chaotic/Nice weather and Hard Work, to be the precise edge of insanity.
Both are insanity cured neither by Hard Work nor the weather.
Heck you could collapse into a heap with a disease forced by a Gulegon
and all they'd want to know is if you'll get rained on while you pout.
Pure Insantiy.
That's Bytopia for you.

 

Stay away from Bytopia I tell you.  Being shanghai'ed into their system is the least of your worries.

[FlaminCows]

So, to truly be the essence of chaos, imho at least one slaad in the multiverse has to be lawful.

What do you think about it?

There's actually a whole race of them. They're called Gormeel, and appear in Dragon #306 pages 57-58.

[Hades]

Lol, I didn't know about them XD

Do the fluff reflect even the "pure chaos doesn't admit a constant, so there are lawful slaad?"

One important thing in dealing with alignments imho, is that we've to remember that "people with the same alignment are NOT the same".

For instance a lawful good could be a "nice and kind guy", while another could be a more unsufferable "holier than thou guy".

[FlaminCows]

Do the fluff reflect even the "pure chaos doesn't admit a constant, so there are lawful slaad?"

"Gormeel exemplify one of the strangest aspects of true chaos: In a completely random environment, even lawful behaviour is a possibility." - Dragon Magazine 306 page 58

[awaken_D_M_golem]

  and the invert 

Choatic Law !!
I suppose the Mathematicians from 2e Planescape
are the group to pin this one.  Wolfram Automata
are extremely simple programs that can generate
near infinitely complex patterns. 
So complicated in fact, they look like Chaos.
iirc this is his most famous example:

(click to show/hide)

[Hades]

VERY interesting... that pattern truly seems a "fusion" between Law and Chaos.

I truly like the "philosphical" approach of Planescape setting. It shows that the Planes are more than "places where outsiders live", and it also give a lot of sense to the alignment system.

[Unbeliever]

I truly like the "philosphical" approach of Planescape setting. It shows that the Planes are more than "places where outsiders live", and it also give a lot of sense to the alignment system.

Ditto.  But, you have to realize, all the philosophies are batshit insane ...