Help with making 2WF work. The age-old struggle.

[Hades]

Another thing is the multiclass "warblade/revenant blade". Tiger claw discipline + TWF treating both ends of the Valenar double scimitar as two-handed weapons. Basically, all the joy of TWF and 2-handed weapon at once. And since we're talking about Valenar double scimitar, with a prc that can give us free Improved Critical, even the "crit fisher" aspect that's so nice with blood in the water is here.

Ooooh, I really like that PrC.  The flavor is awesome, not to mention 1 (3 at lvl 5) free feats that you can change! 

The question then becomes: Do I take ranger levels (gross) or Warblade levels?  Or both?

I think that's better to take only warblade levels, even if that delays the prc a bit (actually, it delays it of only 2 levels, so not really an issue).

I know that the "eternal blade of the revenant" is  nice build, but eternal blade doesn't advance Tiger Claw... So maybe staying warblade can be interesting: high level tiger claw maneuvers (like pouncing charge, raging mongoose or girallon windmill flesh rip) are awesome.

And, when you can attack 13 times per round, with 15-20/x2 crit, I think that blood in the water WILL "proc"

[kitep]

If you dip Monk, then Flying Tiger is great; you have a choice of TWF with 1d8 base damage weapons, or linking them so you can dual wield a pair of 1d6 reach weapons that threaten adjacent to you.

And its a Monk weapon, so Flurry of Blows/Decisive Strike works with it.

And if you go Warblade, then a feat that works with hook swords can be applied to any weapon.
Or maybe not, since the feat is "Flying Tiger", not "Flying Tiger (hook swords)"

[Jackinthegreen]

If you dip Monk, then Flying Tiger is great; you have a choice of TWF with 1d8 base damage weapons, or linking them so you can dual wield a pair of 1d6 reach weapons that threaten adjacent to you.

And its a Monk weapon, so Flurry of Blows/Decisive Strike works with it.

And if you go Warblade, then a feat that works with hook swords can be applied to any weapon.
Or maybe not, since the feat is "Flying Tiger", not "Flying Tiger (hook swords)"

Pretty sure you've mixed up the warblade's "weapon aptitude" ability with the weapon enhancement "aptitude weapon."  It's the latter that allows for fun stuff like Boomerang Daze, if working with a lax DM.

[DaCraw]

Well, BardBlades are pretty awesome for TWFing. You said you don't want a cookie cutter build, so here's a modified version. It does rely on your DM agreeing that you can dual wield unarmed strike, though. How the build progresses depends on whether you're allowed to take flaws or not.

Without Flaws:
NG Human Bard 3 / Warblade 5 / Fist of the Forest (CC) 3 / Warblade 6-14 (Bard 3 / Warblade 14 / Fist of the Forest 3)
H Power Attack
1 Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Two Weapon Fighting
6 Superior Unarmed Strike
WB Great Fortitude
9 Song of the White Raven
12 Words of Creation (BoED)
15 Improved TWF
18 Greater TWF

With Flaws:
NG Human Bard 2/ Warblade 1 / Bard 3 / Warblade 2-5 / Fist of the Forest (CC) 3 / Warblade 6-14 (Bard 3 / Warblade 14 / Fist of the Forest 3)
F Power Attack
F Improved Unarmed Strike
H Two Weapon Fighting
1 Words of Creation (BoED)
3 Song of the White Raven
6 Superior Unarmed Strike
WB Great Fortitude
9 Improved TWF
12 Greater TWF
15 [Free]
18 [Free]

Useful Equipment:
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Vest of Legends
Masterwork Mandolin

Useful Buffs (Get your party Wizard to cast these, buy them a pearl of power or two if necessary)
Greater Mighty Wallop (RotD)
Haste

As you can see, this build is horrendously feat starved. Being able to take 2 flaws would be necessary for it to be realistically playable. It's also MAD as anything. That said, it should put out some impressive numbers, while not being game-breakingly powerful. Inspire Courage will give you and your allies +10 to attack and +8 to damage for at least 6 rounds, 3 times per day. With IC and Greater Mighty Wallop, your Unarmed Strikes do up to 12d8 + Str + 8. If you use both Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still, you get 22 of those on a full attack (+2 if Hasted). The +10 from IC should ensure that most of those hit, too.

This build also qualifies for Bloodclaw Master. This PrC would fit perfectly with the animalistic fluff of a Fist of the Forest. If you're willing to bend the 2 Base classes + 1 PrC rule, it would be well worth considering.

I thought about including Dragonfire Inspiration, but this build is just too hard up for feats. If you're taking flaws, you could play as a Silverbrow Human and fit it in, but by the time you'd have room most CR-appropriate enemies will have fire resistance. Since you can't take more than 2 flaws you can't take Dragontouched and Draconic Heritage to turn that into a more useful energy type. That said, the attack bonus is probably more useful to you anyway, so I'd be surprised if it was worth the hassle.

[SorO_Lost]

If you're going to use Unarmed Strike, seriously just dip Monk. Overwhelming Attack even gives you Power Attack for free (on top of improved unarmed strike). Also, Fist of the Forest only progresses Unarmed Damage if you deal 1d8 or 1d10, Superior Unarmed Strike caps out at 2d6 which is ineligible of any benefit. Even so, you mention Colossal 12d8 damage, unfortunately even if FoF stacked as you hoped it does that requires a 2d10 base, not 2d8 which is what you'd get for Monk-Progressing 2d6 one category.

I'd lose the Unarmed. Either DFI or Unarmed will produce large enough numbers to everything, no sense in over optimizing and taking both just to pay out more than you need to.

[DaCraw]

I will admit that the build I posted assumes we're working with RAI rather than RAW. That said, it is a very harsh DM that would read "If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of
damage," to mean "If you already deal exactly this amount of damage" rather than "If you already deal at least this much damage." The first is a more literal interpretation, but it arguably creates an absurdity. FotF was explicitly intended to progress Monk damage, and SUS gives you (slightly delayed) Monk damage. Any reading that results in SUS not benefiting from FotF would also imply that a level 11 Monk would benefit, but a level 12 Monk wouldn't. That would be absurd.

Whether FotF progresses you by 1 or 2 dice is ambiguous. I would argue that you effectively gain the Unarmed Damage feature twice (as it increases your damage twice), and so they should stack. Even I'm wrong, Greater Mighty Wallop still increases your Unarmed Strike damage to up to 8d8 [average 36] bludgeoning. This is at least equivalent to 10d6 [average 35] fire (Bard 20 DFI + WoC + Masterwork Mandolin), and it lets you keep your IC bonus.

Any bonuses granted from dipping Monk don't scale. The beauty of SUS is that it scales with your level, allowing you to focus on the rest of the build. Adding Monk 1 would mean that the build doesn't reach 9th level maneuvers, that the build only gets 2 uses of Bardic Music per day, or the feat saved is used on Extra Music. In any event, buffed damage would fall by 2-6d8.

[edit]: I'd also add that dipping Monk would push this build past the 2 base class + 1 PrC limit.

The advantage of IC + Unarmed is that you get both +attack and +damage, the two things needed by a TWF build. DFI gives you +damage, but it overwrites the bonus to your attack rolls. TWFers need to be able to hit with those extra attacks.

I'll certainly concede that a standard Bard 4 / Warblade 16 build is more elegant, but the OP explicitly asked for non-cookie-cutter builds.

[Snowbluff]

Teleportron II: Duskblade13/Totemist2/ShadowMarauder5

Totemist can teleport as a move action.
DB can teleport as a Swift, Standard, or Immediate action.

Grab some weapons, and full channel on a teleport with Shadow Marauder.

[Its me Sidney]

Not too shabby DaCraw.  Thanks for the post!
Normally I'm not a fan of anything unarmed, b/c I just don't like the flavor of punching and kicking stuff, but I could use kamas or kukris or something like that.  Or some kind of blade-gauntlet thing reminiscent of a tonfa   -pending dm approval of course.

That being said, I do like the mechanics of what you put together.

[Its me Sidney]

Snowbluff.   
 
You're speaking my language there man, I love me some teleporting,  NIGHTCRAWLER FANBOY FOR LIFE
I can't wait to dig into that build when I have a minute.  As it were, my taxes need to get done asap, I've put it off way too long haha.

But yeah, if I could build a nightcrawler clone that worked in-game.... game over. I can die happy.

[Snowbluff]

But yeah, if I could build a nightcrawler clone that worked in-game.... game over. I can die happy.

This isn't just any Night Crawler. It's really hard to work in more teleportation spells into a build.

Some feat options:
Twin Spell/Practical MM (Twin Stand/Twin Dimension Hop)
Repeat Spell (same)
Improved TWF (Greater's Penalty is high)
Arcane These (Lower MM costs of Stand, D Hop, Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch)
Dimensional Jaunt (At-Will Standard Action teleport if you have a 4th level spell available)

Building straight for Shadow Marauder might work for you, since it only has 5th level prereqs.

[Its me Sidney]

Love it, thanks man.

I found a solution.  DM a campaign and have my nightcrawler wreak havoc on the PCs.  Shadow Jaunt as an at will spell like ability? Yep, thats a thing now.  

[Hades]

Not too shabby DaCraw.  Thanks for the post!
Normally I'm not a fan of anything unarmed, b/c I just don't like the flavor of punching and kicking stuff, but I could use kamas or kukris or something like that.

If you like kamas, you can look at scorpion kama in MIC: a +1 kama that deals damage equal to your unarmed strike damage. Iirc you can normally upgrade it with other enchantements, apply a weapon crystal, etc.

And kama is also a tiger claw weapon, so with 2 level dip in bloodclaw master you do not take the —2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons, and you add your full Strength bonus to damage rolls made for your off-hand weapon.

[SorO_Lost]

I will admit that the build I posted assumes we're working with RAI rather than RAW.

What if I told you, who said it wasn't RAI?

(click to show/hide)

Do you honestly think you should obtain a 20th level capstone trait of a Class using a Feat and 3 PrC levels?

Superior Unarmed Strike caps at 2d6.
Fist of the Forest caps at 1d10 (or 2d6 if eligible).
Both very poorly stack with Monk.

Fist of the Forest is not a Monk PrC. It does not grant Furry of Blows, AC Bonus, Speed, or true Unarmed Monk Progression as real Monk based PrCs do. In fact, Feral Trance's Natural Weapons does not work in conjunction with Furry of Blows at all to begin with.

In summery, no it's quite intentional this Non-Monk PrC doesn't super progress a Monk's Unarmed Damage to the Monk's capstone level. Specially after you consider the other powerful/useful Class Features you obtain during those 3 levels.

But yeah, if I could build a nightcrawler clone that worked in-game.... game over. I can die happy.

This isn't just any Night Crawler. It's really hard to work in more teleportation spells into a build.

Wandhilt^DS with a Wand of Stand^PHBII costs 750gp.
1. Drop Prone as a Free Action. (optional)
2. Cast Stand as an Immediate Action.
3. Use your Full-Round Action to Full-Attack again.

A Wand of Protective Interposition is always great, Cleric 1st so again 750gp for 50 uses. You trade locations with a willing ally, gain +2 Sacred bonus to AC & Saves, Shadow Pounce your ally's threat, and even gain a +2 Sacred Bonus on the first Attack Roll. It's out of Forge of War through.

[Hades]

A warlock/swordsage/telflammar shadowlord with flee the scene invocation, and eldritch claw feat  (Dragon #358) can be a good base for a "Nightcrawler " build.

Isn't there already a Nightcrawler build with telflammar shadowlord? I don't remember where, but iirc they already made it.

[Gazzien]

Stand doesn't teleport you... Unless the version on dndtools is wrong.

[SorO_Lost]

Stand doesn't teleport you... Unless the version on dndtools is wrong.

No D&D Tool's version isn't incorrect. The first sentence you're probably hung up on is actually the flavor. And yeah, the flavor is ambiguous (safely rise to its feet) but the Spell is a Conjuration (teleportation) effect. Which means the creature moves through the Astral Plane, not the Material. This clears up that ambiguity because the creture is not "floating upward" but "teleports from a prone position to standing position".

Crinti Shadow Marauder's Shadow Pounce in turn states "Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation." The distance moved is irrelevant. You could DDoor 0 feet away from your original position and still trigger Shadow Pounce, you merely need to use anything with the teleportation descriptor to blink in and out and attack, which Stand has.

[Gazzien]

Stand doesn't teleport you... Unless the version on dndtools is wrong.

No D&D Tool's version isn't incorrect. The first sentence you're probably hung up on is actually the flavor. And yeah, the flavor is ambiguous (safely rise to its feet) but the Spell is a Conjuration (teleportation) effect. Which means the creature moves through the Astral Plane, not the Material. This clears up that ambiguity because the creture is not "floating upward" but "teleports from a prone position to standing position".

Crinti Shadow Marauder's Shadow Pounce in turn states "Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation." The distance moved is irrelevant. You could DDoor 0 feet away from your original position and still trigger Shadow Pounce, you merely need to use anything with the teleportation descriptor to blink in and out and attack, which Stand has.

Ah. Nevermind then, my mistake.

[Unbeliever]

Question related to Shadow Pouncing that is semi-on topic, I think.  What's the easiest way to keep the damage competitive? 

Shadow Pouncing and TWF have the same "profile" in a sense:  they both involve scads of attacks.  The trick is to make those attacks worthwhile.  But, Shadow Pouncing also requires a substantial level commitment, 4-5 levels, iirc.  So, what's the easiest way, that is the cheapest in terms of character resources, to pump the damage? 

Off the top of my head I think Shadow Blade with a high Dex is flavorful and bound to work.  And, maybe Skirmish, since you'll be moving with some of these teleports anyway.  Although that requires some more level commitments to really get going.  Thoughts? 

Finally, is there a way to turn multiple attacks into something more tactical?  I love the idea of melee fighters being able to do more than just damage.  You've got tons of attacks, which could be tons of opportunity to do ... something.  Wounding weapons are a natural option for debuffing.  Maybe a feat like Knockdown, which will give you a ton of rolls against the target, so you'll be bound to get lucky? 

I'm just spitballing here while I'm AFB ...

[phaedrusxy]

Staggering Strike is just a ridiculously overpowered feat for anyone with any sneak attack whatsoever (which would include most shadowpouncers).

[Snowbluff]

Seconding Staggering Strike and Craven.

Knowledge Devotion is good, too. If you read my build stub, you will know Teleportron the Second gets most of his damage from Full Channeling spells (which may actually lead to multiple spells on each hit).

Isn't there already a Nightcrawler build with telflammar shadowlord? I don't remember where, but iirc they already made it.

Shadowlord's prereqs require at lest 2 more levels, which means you get Shadow Pounce soon with Shadow Marauder.