Cool shit the Fighter could do in old school D&D

[oslecamo]

almost all magic weapons can only be used by them

Refluff wands and staves as magic swords, use BAB in place of caster level, and require casters (but not fighters) to make UMD checks to use them. Let the Weapon Focus chain increase their save DC and caster level. Remove the concept of touch attacks so that fighters are better at hitting with rays than wizards.

+1 to that. This is, in most media an hero with a shield can parry death lasers, explosions,  dragon's breaths and whatnot.

[Garryl]

That's the fundamental problem of 3e as opposed to earlier editions.  In AD&D, 1e, and 2e, stat rolls mattered for everyone.  Sure, you could bank on nabbing a Gauntlets of Ogre Strength to cover a poor Strength roll as a Fighter, but there would still be quite a few levels where you would be lacking that benefit.  Also, Spellcasters needed a certain amount of their primary casting stat to even be their class and cast spells of X level, and there were FAR fewer ways of increasing ability scores to cover for low rolls there.

I never really felt like stat rolls mattered that much in 2nd edition, unless you got an 18 for that percentile strength. I don't remember the non-hybrid spellcasters needing minimum stats to just be their class, either, other than multi/duel-classing. Hybrids (paladin, ranger, druid?, bard) required outrageously high stats. (I could be remembering incorrectly, though... I haven't played 2e in nearly 20 years...)

All of the common stat rolls (roughly 8-14, plus or minus a bit depending on the stat) were functionally identical.
- Strength gave a whopping +1 damage at 16, +1 to hit/+1 damage at 17, and +1/+2 at 18. Percentile Strength was where it was at for any large bonuses, bu even that had a 50/50 chance of not giving you much. 18(01-50) was only +1/+3. Anything from 8-15 only slightly affected how much you could carry and whether you had a negligible or merely small chance to open stuck doors and bend metal bars and gates.
- Dexterity gave AC bonuses starting at 15, and ranged to hit and surprise roll bonuses starting at 16. Having an 18 for -4 AC was really important for everyone, but even a 15 for -1 AC was pretty good. 7-14 gave no bonuses or penalties either way.
- Constitution gave +1 hp/HD at 15, and +2 hp/HD at 16. Warriors only got +3 at 17 and +4 at 18 (+5 at 19, too, but that was for Dwarves only). It also governed your chance of coming back from the dead when being resurrected. In addition to each resurrection permanently removing 1 point of Con, you had to make a percentile rolls to see if you were gone for good. Gross bodily changes (petrification, polymorph, etc.) also had a percentile chance to straight-up kill you based on your Con. 7-14 gave no bonuses or penalties either way unless you were a Dwarf, Gnome, or Halfling, in which case you got a +1 bonus on saves vs. poisons and most magical effects for every 3.5 points of Con (exact details dependent on the race in question).
- Intelligence was nigh-useless for everyone but Wizards, governing only how many languages you could speak. For Wizards, it not only limited their chance of learning any given spell (Int 9 was only around a 35% chance, up to 85% at 18), but also the maximum number of spells of each level they could learn (an 18 Int gave 18 spells/level). You also needed an Int of 10 to ever cast 5th level spells, an Int of 12 to cast 6th level spells, an Int of 14 to cast 7th level spells, an Int of 16 to cast 8th level spells, and an Int of 18 to cast 9th level spells. Gnomes alone could get up to a 19 Int, which increased the spell learning success rate to 95%, removed the limit of spells learned for any given level (you could learn them all, or at least 95% of them), and also gave immunity to 1st-level illusions.
- Clerics secretly required a Wisdom of 13+, rather than their alleged 9, because at 12 or lower you had a 5-20% chance of any given spell fizzling. Wis 13+ also gave bonus low-level priest spells per day (up to 2x 1st and 2nd and 1x 3rd and 4th at Wis 18). In 1st edition, they also needed Wisdom of 18 to cast 7th level spells, and Wis ~16 or so to cast 6th level spells. A Wis of 15+ also gave a bonus on saves against mental effects. For everyone but priests, any Wis score from 8-14 was identical (no bonus or penalty vs. mind-affecting magics).
- Charisma only mattered for stat requirements or if you were the party face. Nearly as much of a dump stat as Intelligence.

[Amechra]

I look at the above, and do not see it as a bad thing.

Kinda wish 3.5 had stuck with ability scores like that...

[SorO_Lost]

I look at the above, and do not see it as a bad thing.

Kinda wish 3.5 had stuck with ability scores like that...

Ugh god no.

I mean, from a Min/Max point of view 90% of the values didn't matter so I guess if you hate numbers it's a good thing. But in 3rd you know your modifier is value-10/2. In 2nd, your Constitution Modifier to Hit Points immediately asked what Class you were. Your Strength Bonus asked what d% you rolled. You're Dex mod? Pfft, -0 for most of it, when did that -1 kick in again? And a +1 Bonus for your Race wasn't absolutely game breaking (19 int is infinite & 18 is limited, 18 str was so 'expected' you had to roll a second die bypassed by 19 str). Terrible terrible terrible.

[phaedrusxy]

I look at the above, and do not see it as a bad thing.

Kinda wish 3.5 had stuck with ability scores like that...

Ugh god no.

I mean, from a Min/Max point of view 90% of the values didn't matter so I guess if you hate numbers it's a good thing. But in 3rd you know your modifier is value-10/2. In 2nd, your Constitution Modifier to Hit Points immediately asked what Class you were. Your Strength Bonus asked what d% you rolled. You're Dex mod? Pfft, -0 for most of it, when did that -1 kick in again? And a +1 Bonus for your Race wasn't absolutely game breaking (19 int is infinite & 18 is limited, 18 str was so 'expected' you had to roll a second die bypassed by 19 str). Terrible terrible terrible.

Yeah... pretty much everything in 2nd edition seemed to require you to look it up in a table to figure out WTF it meant.  There were no simple mathematical relationships to determine things like your hit points, saving throws, etc. It was a pretty silly system (much like Camelot).

[Amechra]

I meant it more along the lines of "I wish ability scores were more of a small benefit thing", rather than a return to the bad old days of tables (I used to know the formula for deriving the hit tables in 1e by heart.)

[X-Codes]

I don't necessarily care about ability scores being a small benefit thing so much as I want to have the rolls matter.

[SorO_Lost]

I meant it more along the lines of "I wish ability scores were more of a small benefit thing"

The phrasing on my last sentence is off, but I was trying to explain 2nd's ability scores did not provide small benefits and were instantly broken by +1 racial boosts. Let me elaborate.

2nd 18 Str was considered to be "normal" in so far that you had to roll a second die in order to differentiate your self.
18/01~50: +1 att, +3 dmg <- 50% of all 18s.
18/51~75: +2 att, +3 dmg <- 75% of all 18s is worth +3 damage.
18/76~90: +2 att, +4 dmg <- This is a 14% margin.
18/91~99: +2 att, +5 dmg <- This is an 8% margin.
18/100: +3 att, +6 dmg. <- This is a 1% margin.
OR Play an Orc or something. 19 Str skips the d% roll and you instantly gain +3 att & +7 dmg. That's a +1/+4 gain over 75% of "capped" strength characters. Off a impossible to reduce smaller "+1" bonus.

Intelligence has a limit of Spells per Spell Level, at 18 it's (thankfully) a pretty simple '18'. You also have a 85% to learn a Spell from a Scroll and that's it. Int 19 ups the Spell Limit to infinite, learn chance to 95%, and grants immunity to 1st level Illusions.

Wait what? Immunity to Spells for having a 19? Well let's talk about Wisdom. Wisdom 18 grants a +4 bonus vs Magic and if you're not a Priest that's pretty much it. Wisdom 19? You start picking up immunities, 19 includes cause fear, charm person, command, friends, & hypnotism. Yeah, starting out with +1 bonuses can actually render you immune to Spells of your level. Further increases provide further immunities.

Constitution 19 isn't *as* big of a deal since all you get is your first bonus to resisting Poison, it's 20 when it breaks the mold and you gain Regeneration 1/6. Aka, start with full HP for every single Encounter.

Dex/Cha rank at the bottom. Simple numerical increases. Well, Cha 18 vs 19 is a difference of five henchmen, but it's the same difference found in 17 vs 18 so no biggy. But the point to take away is a lot of the rolled values are not worth crap and easily dumped allowing everyone to start with their key scores capped, but when coupled with the smallest possible bonus (+1) they kick right over into overpowered holy crap town. Because in 2nd, +1 is f'ing huge.

3rd loved giving out bonuses, but the bonuses were substantially smaller than 2nd. It's a more of it, but less value for each kind of thing. And it's ironically, the very thing you want despite idealizing 2nd.

[Unbeliever]

3rd loved giving out bonuses, but the bonuses were substantially smaller than 2nd. It's a more of it, but less value for each kind of thing. And it's ironically, the very thing you want despite idealizing 2nd.

I  just wanted to take a moment to thank SorO for taking the time to articulate, and to go back and make explicit reference, to the stuff that was striking me about this topic.  For many characters, many stats were dump stats in 2E, they literally didn't matter.  For other stats, and with a bit of cunning, they could determine whether your character was incompetent, or He Who Destroys All he Surveys.

Magic items could have the same effect, as evidenced earlier in this thread.

[TuggyNE]

3rd loved giving out bonuses, but the bonuses were substantially smaller than 2nd. It's a more of it, but less value for each kind of thing. And it's ironically, the very thing you want despite idealizing 2nd.

I don't often agree with SorO, but when I do, it's on 3e's math cleanups. Stay table-free, my friends.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I think the 1e stat bonuses work just about the same as what SorO posted for 2e.

[Keldar]

That's why Half Silver (Krynnish) Dragons were the best race ever.  +1 to everything.   

[Libertad]

That's why Half Silver (Krynnish) Dragons were the best race ever.  +1 to everything.   

As far as I'm aware, there are no half-dragons in Dragonlance.  Instead there are Draconians (who are their own race) and Dragonspawn (who only come in the chromatic varieties).  Was there some weird stuff going on in 2E?

[zugschef]

As soon as you're talking about "mundanes" it should be obvious that they can only become worthless compared to magical/psionic classes at some point of advancement. This point is easily spotted as well: It's when magics start to make mundane skills obsolete.

Sticking to 3rd edition, that partially starts at level 1, when the wizard uses his familiar and benign position out of combat and casts sleep in combat. A lot of utility spells are 2nd (e.g. alter self, invisibility) and 3rd level (e.g. fly, speak with dead), so at level 5 every non-caster is a bystander out of combat at the latest. To really see the mundanes become mostly superfluous in combat takes a bit longer since casters (excluding the almighty druid who crushes his opposition at any level) need some time to get the spells to fuckin' kill people without the help of stabination. In core that's level 7 when spells like Evard's black tentacles (cast, drink a cup of tea and then loot the corpses) and divine power (cleric now does the stabination himself) come up.

And it doesn't matter which system you're talking about. This point always comes. No matter how granular your advancement is. Because magic will always be open ended while mundanes will always have a ceiling called real world physics.

All this is, is another fighters don't get nice things thread.

[Hades]

I look at the above, and do not see it as a bad thing.

Kinda wish 3.5 had stuck with ability scores like that...

Ugh god no.

I mean, from a Min/Max point of view 90% of the values didn't matter so I guess if you hate numbers it's a good thing. But in 3rd you know your modifier is value-10/2. In 2nd, your Constitution Modifier to Hit Points immediately asked what Class you were. Your Strength Bonus asked what d% you rolled. You're Dex mod? Pfft, -0 for most of it, when did that -1 kick in again? And a +1 Bonus for your Race wasn't absolutely game breaking (19 int is infinite & 18 is limited, 18 str was so 'expected' you had to roll a second die bypassed by 19 str). Terrible terrible terrible.

Yeah... pretty much everything in 2nd edition seemed to require you to look it up in a table to figure out WTF it meant.  There were no simple mathematical relationships to determine things like your hit points, saving throws, etc. It was a pretty silly system (much like Camelot).

I agree. A lot of things in AD&D imho were just needlessly complicated. Let's think even about biclass rules, or the bard in AD&D 1st edition...

(click to show/hide)

To become a bard, a human or half-elf had to begin with very high ability scores: Strength 15+, Wisdom 15+, Dexterity 15+ and Charisma 15+, Intelligence 12+ and Constitution 10+. These daunting requirements made bards one of the rarest character classes. Bards began the game as fighters, and after achieving 5th level (but before reaching 8th level), they had to dual-class as a thief, and after reaching 5th level as a thief (but before reaching 9th level), they had to dual-class again to druid. Once becoming a druid, the character then progressed as a bard, but under druidic tutelage.

And the worst thing... that bard isn't even a "bard" (i.e. a wandering minstrel and entertainer), but more a "druidic loremaster".

[Keldar]

That's why Half Silver (Krynnish) Dragons were the best race ever.  +1 to everything.   

As far as I'm aware, there are no half-dragons in Dragonlance.  Instead there are Draconians (who are their own race) and Dragonspawn (who only come in the chromatic varieties).  Was there some weird stuff going on in 2E?

Yes, weird stuff.  It was also only in Dragon Magazine as one of the plethora of Half Dragons in that issue.  IIRC it wasn't a standard half dragon either.  I'll poke about and see if I can find the issue number.

Edit: DRAGON(R) issue #206 (June 1994): "Part Dragon,  All Hero." by Roger E. Moore  Short version, permanently transformed dragons can have children with mortals.  The children are mortal, but get +1 across the board and a longer lifespan, and silver hair and eyes.  I guess that means Paladine could be littering the setting with half-platinum bastards.   

[SorO_Lost]

Was there some weird stuff going on in 2E?

The mechanics.

I never really had a chance to go into splat, but it'd be cool to know some oddities. Like the +1 all Race, very nice.

And the worst thing... that bard isn't even a "bard" (i.e. a wandering minstrel and entertainer), but more a "druidic loremaster".

Because that's not a Bard. It sounds like a Class Kit, but a bit extreme. AD&D's Bard wants 12 Dex, 13 Int, and 15 Cha. And you do gain Spells & Bardic Music, through Inspire sucks (takes 3 rounds before combat to use). They do use the Thief's XP table too which is pretty damn nice. I guess I could mention that for what it's worth.

Level 20
Druid: 2,000,000.
Thief/Bard: 2,200,000.
Cleric: 2,700,000.
Fighter: 3,000,000.
Paladin/Ranger: 3,600,000.
Wizard: 3,750,000.
So if you snapshot a party at 2,250,000 XP, the Thief would be level 20, the Cleric level 18, the Fighter level 17, and the Wizard only level 16. Getting into Class oddities, you could have a Half-Elf Fighter 11 / Wizard 12 / Cleric 12 (tables scale differently). And you thought Fighter screw overs and Codzilla was a 3rd thing. 

[Garryl]

And the worst thing... that bard isn't even a "bard" (i.e. a wandering minstrel and entertainer), but more a "druidic loremaster".

Because that's not a Bard. It sounds like a Class Kit, but a bit extreme. AD&D's Bard wants 12 Dex, 13 Int, and 15 Cha. And you do gain Spells & Bardic Music, through Inspire sucks (takes 3 rounds before combat to use). They do use the Thief's XP table too which is pretty damn nice. I guess I could mention that for what it's worth.

2nd edition Bards do cast more powerful spells than Wizards for the same XP total as a result. If you just want to throw around the biggest fireball you can, Bard wins out at mid-levels (before the Wizard's higher level spell access gives them even better fireballs) due to the Thief table being about 1 level higher than the Wizard table.

[phaedrusxy]

And the worst thing... that bard isn't even a "bard" (i.e. a wandering minstrel and entertainer), but more a "druidic loremaster".

Because that's not a Bard. It sounds like a Class Kit, but a bit extreme. AD&D's Bard wants 12 Dex, 13 Int, and 15 Cha. And you do gain Spells & Bardic Music, through Inspire sucks (takes 3 rounds before combat to use). They do use the Thief's XP table too which is pretty damn nice. I guess I could mention that for what it's worth.

2nd edition Bards do cast more powerful spells than Wizards for the same XP total as a result. If you just want to throw around the biggest fireball you can, Bard wins out at mid-levels (before the Wizard's higher level spell access gives them even better fireballs) due to the Thief table being about 1 level higher than the Wizard table.

Yeah, the 2nd edition bard was ridiculous. I didn't realize it until I was playing one, and thought "Crap... I'm basically a wizard, with benefits."

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I very hazy recall that the Shade had a trick in 2e, and was along the vein of multiclassing ... but idk wtf or why.