Help me on a Teflammar Shadowlord

[liquid150]

I'm tossing around a few different ideas for a shadowpouncing build. So far I have a few ideas, and I'm looking for suggestions as to what is the best route. All WotC sources allowed, fractional BAB and saves in effect, 6 extra base skill points per level. I'm going for between tier 3/4, I don't think I'd be able to get higher with the current plans. That will suffice for the goal, anyway, mostly being strong in melee an being able to contribute in some other strange ways.

I plan to go Necropolitan Human, maybe Dark Necropolitan Human if I have enough XP. I will definitely perform the Ritual of Shadow Walking.

There's, of course, a standard Swordsage 5/Totemist 2/Teflammar Shadowlord X/Something(s) else X. Haven't finished the plan here, obviously, so any help closing the build would be appreciated. The something(s) else would probably be more swordsage and other crap, but I'm not sure yet.

Then I had a (maybe?) unusual idea, Rogue 3/Totemist 2/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 1/Teflammar Shadowlord 4/Swiftblade 8/Swordsage 1. I threw in Trapsmith for entry to Swiftblade, then used Swiftblade 1 to snag Spring Attack for TS entry. This one will lack a little in the maneuver options, obviously, but Swiftblade is so awesome that I am not sure I'd miss them. I'd like to be able to spread out the spellcasting levels gained between Trapsmith and TS...I don't know if I can based on the RAW, though. It reads that:

If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a swiftblade, they must decide which class gains each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

emphasis mine. I'd probably use most of the levels on Trapsmith for more haste...

What are the opinions of these two builds? Trapsmith and TS Spellcasting aren't awesome things to progress that far, but Swiftblade is still very good regardless. Maneuvers are...well...maneuvers, and are useful.

[Rebel7284]

Ardent 8/Swordsage 1/TSL 4/Ardent 2

Dominant Ideal+Customize Mantle to twin power all the teleportation powers. 

[liquid150]

Scratch the Swordsage 1 in the second build...replace with a level of rogue...in all the jumbled thoughts (and calculating optimized production methods for class) I lost track of prereqs.

Ardent 8/Swordsage 1/TSL 4/Ardent 2

Dominant Ideal+Customize Mantle to twin power all the teleportation powers.

Naughty naughty... I was going to work on an Ardent version but I haven't had the chance yet. Though, that's a great way to go to pick up Swiftclaw as well.

[Fadier]

I don't think its as powerful but what about using Blade of Orien? after 10 level you have dimension leap at least 8 times a day (more if you take dragonmark heir) but when you use it you get a different kind of shadow pounce. Whats better than one full attack at the end of your teleport? Two full attacks.

On a side note what do people think of the level 5 ability the shadowlord gets, Shadow Discorporation? It seems pretty good if you have the Diamond Mind saver replacer available.

[brujon]

I don't think its as powerful but what about using Blade of Orien? after 10 level you have dimension leap at least 8 times a day (more if you take dragonmark heir) but when you use it you get a different kind of shadow pounce. Whats better than one full attack at the end of your teleport? Two full attacks.

On a side note what do people think of the level 5 ability the shadowlord gets, Shadow Discorporation? It seems pretty good if you have the Diamond Mind saver replacer available.

It's not as good as the TSL pounce because it only triggers if you use dimension leap as a move action. Not when you use it as a standard, so it kinda limits you a bit. You still get 3 full attacks a round, 1 from Standard Shadow Jump + 2 from dimension leap as a move, but "traditional" swordsage or warblade builds are better, because they don't burn 15 levels in non-initiatiator classes.

[liquid150]

Decided to change the last Swiftblade level with, probably, a swordsage level in the second build. Innervated Speed isn't useful when you only have 3rd level slots. That's what I get for tossing the idea together in 20 minutes in class and not looking anything up.

[Satori]

I'm liking the swiftblade thing myself.  More action to pounce with, XD.

There is a feat that gives you trapsense, so you can use that instead of rogue levels if you need them for trapsmith (Do you?)

Trapfinding Ranger1(favored enemy arcanist)/Totemist2/ardent1/Swordsage1/Trapsmith1/TSL 4/Swiftblade9/+1 ardent or swordsage

Not necessarily in that order.  if using fractional, you even get 17 bab, i think.  Take Nemesis to autodetect any arcanist within 60 ft, so you know who to gank first.  Ardent gives you dimension hop, and if you conserve PP even just 1 level will probably give you enough to do it several times per day.

The downside to this is that your casting is INT based, but you probably need at least wis 11-14 for Ardent

[liquid150]

There is a feat that gives you trapsense, so you can use that instead of rogue levels if you need them for trapsmith (Do you?)

No, but you do need Trapfinding, which that ranger variant would cover.

I really like this build the posted, picking up Dimension Hop helps with action economy tremendously. The order definitely works, and I'd probably cap it off with Swordsage just because that will really open up some new maneuvers that late in the progression.

I could get 3 shadowpounces a round for a while, but 2 pounces per round pretty much every single round indefinitely.

[liquid150]

Starting to like the Swiftblade one for now...but I have to do it this way to meet prereqs: 1 Factotum/2 Totemist/1 Ardent/1 Swordsage/1 Trapsmith/1 Swiftblade/4 Teflammar Shadowlord/8 Swiftblade/1 Swordsage

Weapon Finesse is free, and gives Dex to damage instead of STR (stupid feat tax my group hates), Power Attack is also free because swinging a weapon hard is something anybody can do, and spending a feat on it is stupid. Two Weapon Fighting also gives extra attacks as ITWF and GTWF later down the road, because feat taxes suck. We also always get to choose one exotic weapon proficiency, so I might take Gnomish Quickrazor. I replaced Trapfinding Ranger with Factotum to pick up Iaijatsu Focus...

feats:
1 - Expeditious Dodge
1H - Blind Fight
3 - Mobility
6 - Two Weapon Fighting
9 - Gloom Razor
12 - Twin Power
15 - Expanded knowledge (schism)
18 - adaptive style?

Consider this a work in progress, I don't have time to figure it all out right now. Going out with the gal. As you can see, I tossed this together quickly.

[liquid150]

Don't need shadow blade for gloom razor since the feat is already built in to the game.

[Fadier]

If your only using Ardent for Dimension Hop then why not instead take Mantled Erudite (Freedom) instead? For slightly more cheeze drop your psi crystal for the mantle and use your bonus feat to get Psionic Talent. In the end you have bonus PP based off your Int, +2 power points and all this costs you is 1 average HP, 0.25 BAB and some mantle you probably were not going to use.

Where are people getting the 2d6 SA for the Shadowlord? One level of swordsage cannot get you the sneak attack stance, even if you ignore the "only level 1 stances at 1st level" thing you would need to be level 9 to meet the Initiator Level requirements.

[liquid150]

If your only using Ardent for Dimension Hop then why not instead take Mantled Erudite (Freedom) instead? For slightly more cheeze drop your psi crystal for the mantle and use your bonus feat to get Psionic Talent. In the end you have bonus PP based off your Int, +2 power points and all this costs you is 1 average HP, 0.25 BAB and some mantle you probably were not going to use.
Where are people getting the 2d6 SA for the Shadowlord? One level of swordsage cannot get you the sneak attack stance, even if you ignore the "only level 1 stances at 1st level" thing you would need to be level 9 to meet the Initiator Level requirements.

A good point, and a problem when I stop paying attention and reading suggestions and getting ideas. Probably would dump the psionics, in this case. I wouldn't if I were going for pure power. Have to mull over what to do about the missing SA issue.

[liquid150]

This can be rectified easily, but it'll force me to push back TS a level to have swordsage in the mix early. Since my group has house rules for Able Learner, I can still pick up iaijatsu focus. I'll repost later this weekend.

[Havok4]

A cleric dip might be good as you can pick up some of the necessary feats for shadowlord as domain bonus feats.

[Fadier]

I was more thinking something like this:

Factotum 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Totemist 2/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 1/Teflammar Shadowlord 5/Swiftblade 8

Rokugan Ninja gives +1 BAB, +1d6 SA, and Dodge. The Factotum level is for Iaijitzu Focus, if you dont want that Swap SA Fighter to Rogue and use Mantled Erudite instead of Factotum.

With the Factotum, Totemist, Trapsmith, Swiftblade and Shadowlord pumping your reflex saves it makes Shadow Discorporation easy to pass making your character essentially unkillable. At level 12 (the level you get it) your base save is 15 with partial saves, 13 without.

[liquid150]

I was more thinking something like this:

Factotum 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Totemist 2/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 1/Teflammar Shadowlord 5/Swiftblade 8

Rokugan Ninja gives +1 BAB, +1d6 SA, and Dodge. The Factotum level is for Iaijitzu Focus, if you dont want that Swap SA Fighter to Rogue and use Mantled Erudite instead of Factotum.

With the Factotum, Totemist, Trapsmith, Swiftblade and Shadowlord pumping your reflex saves it makes Shadow Discorporation easy to pass making your character essentially unkillable. At level 12 (the level you get it) your base save is 15 with partial saves, 13 without.

Isn't Rokugan Ninja 3rd party? edit: ahh, it has a WotC trademark on it, I can probably get it in.

Reflecting on this, I think that throwing in psionics in this group to get even more multi-pounce will be frowned upon. This is the first time anybody has gone TSL.

I really want to work Swordsage into the build to be able to use Gloom Razor and some of the other maneuvers, especially to trigger Iaijatsu Focus. Shadow Discorporation would be great...but I don't know if I can squeeze it in. Right now I am having a hard enough time squeezing in Swordsage, 2d6 SA, etc. Let's see if I can do it (don't forget, Able Learner is houseruled to give 3 chosen skills as class skills for all levels).

Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Totemist 2/Swordsage 1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 1/Teflammar Shadowlord 5/Swiftblade 8

Feats:
1 - Blind Fight
1H - Able Learner
3 - Mobility
6 - Gloom Razor
9 - Lifesight
12 -Lightning Mace???
15 -
18 -

This will get everything accomplished that I am looking for right now, I think.

Since Shadow Blade is already incorporated into the ruleset, I doubt I will have to take it to qualify for Gloom Razor, but will have to talk to the DM. If I do have to take it, he will probably either come up with a new effect or change the houserule since it's likely that I'd be the only one with a dexterity focused character.

[liquid150]

So here's where my op-fu stats to run out. I'm more of a caster guy than anything else. Sure, I can toss together a decent Warblade, but pretty much anybody can do that.

Purchasing Gloves of the Balanced Hand eliminates the need to take TWF (remember, it scales automatically in the house rules). So, here I am with at least two feat slots open, and completely clueless what to do with them. I could perhaps go for Battle Jump or Leap Attack, I guess, as those are damage multiplier staples. Darkstalker would be pretty flavorful, I suppose.

What other options do I have? Considering I am pouncing twice a round already, something flavorful but useful would suffice.

edit: oh, and where is the quote that says you can only learn 1st level stances at your first level of an initiator class? I can't find it anywhere, but I might be looking in the wrong place or have overlooked it.

[liquid150]

I was thinking about using keen aptitude quickrazors in combination with all the attacks I'll be getting and Lightning Mace. Yeah, they aren't as good as kukris but should still be useful. Not dead set on that yet, but it does give me something to go forward with post level 11.

[Fadier]

The whole stance thing is in the "Stances Known" section of the initiator classes

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you.

It's probably bad wording on WotC's part but that is what it says.


As for 2 feats you could take try Improved Initative and Improved Buckler Defense. The latter is not as good as Lightning Maces but is a heck of of lot less cheezy (I would avoid taking aptitude weapons as it is quite cheezy, but this depends on what other players are playing. Do you know what the other builds are?).

As for Iaijitsu Focus do not forget about the Blurstrike enchantment, 10/day on your first attack with the weapon you opponent is flatfooted.

[liquid150]

By the time it comes online I don't think it will be a problem. We are starting at level 10, so it will take some levels and cash. If I change my mind in the meantime, I will go another route. What other feats should I consider?