As a DM, would you allow this?

[bhu]

Would you allow someone to change their Type to Animal via Wish, and if you did so would you restrict their Int to a maximum of 2?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Yes to both. Now roll up a new character because they aren't who they were anymore.

[kitep]

Yeah, I'd let them change and no I wouldn't reduce the Int.  But then, I play with a group that doesn't try to abuse the system, so it's pretty easy for me to let them do whatever they want to do.

There was a recent thread about changing your type to Animal.  No one produced a good reason why someone would want to, other than perhaps abusing being the target of Druid spells, esp Awaken.

Polymorph changes a character's type.  Many templates and PRCs change a character's type.  So it's not exactly gamebreaking - especially Animal.  I might be worried if they wanted Outside, or Magical Beast, or Aberation, or even Dragon or Undead, but I can't get worried about Animal.

One thing I do when adjucatiing Wish, is I ask myself "is this worth 25,000gp or less?"  If I think so, then I allow it.

But before I allow it, I'd ask the person "why?" to see if there's something I'm missing - and let him know I reserve the right to lay the smack down and change it if he doesn't give me a straight answer.

[bhu]

I ask because I've noticed in the template handbook I'm making, that no template allows you to change your Type to Animal.

[MeanFightingGuy]

The question is: Would it make sense from an ingame perspective?

In a certain way, asking for a titan's strength, all gold in the world, absolute immortality, make everyone fall in love with you, becoming ruler of the world, the ability to kill a God with your touch would be valid wishes (and though none of the above would be covered by the power of the spell "Wish" due to its scope, one could very well ask for a downtuned version of it).

But what exactly would be the wording and the sense of a wish that asks for something that is purely a game mechanic?
"I want to be an animal, that looks and behaves in every way as the human/elf/whatever I am now?"  ...
Even if one assumes that the RL fact that humans are actually highly evolved animals does not apply to a fantasy world, and both humanoids and animals have come into being separately, how would one justify this? I always assumed that the creature type is tied to one's species, and if someone wanted to change that, he would have to change the species as well.

So in that regard, I have an easier time allowing someone to become a Planetouched ("Change me into a tiefling!") than someone becoming an animal.

[linklord231]

The question is: Would it make sense from an ingame perspective?

In a certain way, asking for a titan's strength, all gold in the world, absolute immortality, make everyone fall in love with you, becoming ruler of the world, the ability to kill a God with your touch would be valid wishes (and though none of the above would be covered by the power of the spell "Wish" due to its scope, one could very well ask for a downtuned version of it).

But what exactly would be the wording and the sense of a wish that asks for something that is purely a game mechanic?
"I want to be an animal, that looks and behaves in every way as the human/elf/whatever I am now?"  ...
Even if one assumes that the RL fact that humans are actually highly evolved animals does not apply to a fantasy world, and both humanoids and animals have come into being separately, how would one justify this? I always assumed that the creature type is tied to one's species, and if someone wanted to change that, he would have to change the species as well.

So in that regard, I have an easier time allowing someone to become a Planetouched ("Change me into a tiefling!") than someone becoming an animal.

Of course, changing to the Animal type would be a metagame discussion.  The actual in-character Wish would be something like "I wish to embrace my feral, animalistic nature" or "I wish to be freed of the constraints of my heritage." 

[MeanFightingGuy]

Of course, changing to the Animal type would be a metagame discussion.  The actual in-character Wish would be something like "I wish to embrace my feral, animalistic nature" or "I wish to be freed of the constraints of my heritage."

Extremely meta, if you ask me.

I can live with somewhat arbitrary classifications in the game mechanics and how to circumvent them, though they might require oddly specific wishes (f.ex. if a character would ask "make me exactly [minimum/maximum size for wished size class] tall/long/wide/heavy" in order to get the perks from being x size classes bigger or smaller than before).
But I have a hard time coming up with a wording that changes only a particular attribute (and nothing else) which is only a game mechanic without clearly defined in-universe represenation - any jackass genie could twist these words to produce an entirely different outcome from the one that was desired.

[Kajhera]

... Seems more likely the character would ask to turn into a cat, or something similar, than only ask for the animal type.

[kitep]

It's pretty easy to assume that a character with 26+ INT could come up with the correct wording, even if you and I can't.

So it's probably better to focus on the OP's original questions, can a Wish turn a person into an animal?  Would you restrict the INT to 2?

For that matter, if someone stuck a hat of +4 INT on a dog, would you say "it doesn't work" or would you say "it now has a 5 (or 6) INT?

[Kajhera]

Those horseshoes that change a horse to resemble a nightmare if I recall correctly don't change their type, which means intelligence boosts should work.

There is the line in the animal type, though, that no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal. This is ... actually evidently false, because you can polymorph into the Animal type, and retain your intelligence. However, if the Wish attempted to solve the problem by duplicating Polymorph Any Object, you would lose your intelligence score. If it instead did something like provoking a deity into making polymorph permanent via alter reality, then your mental scores would be fine ...

I might have it be permanent rather than instantaneous duration, and otherwise work fine. Instantaneous more likely to change the int score.

[MeanFightingGuy]

It's pretty easy to assume that a character with 26+ INT could come up with the correct wording, even if you and I can't.

Good point.

So it's probably better to focus on the OP's original questions, can a Wish turn a person into an animal?  Would you restrict the INT to 2?

Okay, let me turn this question around to illustrate my position.
Let's assume someone wants to turn into the undead type for whatever reason (it's a lot more attractive than being an animal http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Undead_Type) but doesn't want to change in any other way than that.
But what does being an undead entail apart from those numerous perks? Would he be immortal? Infertile? Rotting away or ageless? Would he be able to fulfill a prophecy that states that "no living man can ever yadda yadda yadda", if he wouldn't actually BE undead apart from a purely game mechanic PoV?
In other words: Would an undead that behaves in any other way apart from the game mechanics like a living being actually be conceivable? Can a wish "invent" something totally new for a game world or produce a result that totally runs counter to the in-universe logic?

Or would it be much more feasible to make the player in the TE's group come up with a workaround that produces the results in regards to game mechanics, but doesn't try to stick to the original goal of getting the animal type.
(assuming this isn't just some kind of intellectual exercise in the first place, since I fail to see why becoming an animal is a desirable goal)

For that matter, if someone stuck a hat of +4 INT on a dog, would you say "it doesn't work" or would you say "it now has a 5 (or 6) INT?

Interesting question.
Would you let a cat benefit from the perks of a (large) magic ring worn around its paws, or would you restrict the benefits only to magical items that are explicitly tailormade for animals? And, the other way round, would you let a humanoid being benefit from that kind of item, f.ex. let a human benefit from wearing horseshoes under the sole of his shoe (I don't even know whether unicorns may benefit from magical horseshoes) ?

[Raineh Daze]

So it's probably better to focus on the OP's original questions, can a Wish turn a person into an animal?  Would you restrict the INT to 2?

Okay, let me turn this question around to illustrate my position.
Let's assume someone wants to turn into the undead type for whatever reason (it's a lot more attractive than being an animal http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Undead_Type) but doesn't want to change in any other way than that.
But what does being an undead entail apart from those numerous perks? Would he be immortal? Infertile? Rotting away or ageless? Would he be able to fulfill a prophecy that states that "no living man can ever yadda yadda yadda", if he wouldn't actually BE undead apart from a purely game mechanic PoV?
In other words: Would an undead that behaves in any other way apart from the game mechanics like a living being actually be conceivable? Can a wish "invent" something totally new for a game world or produce a result that totally runs counter to the in-universe logic?

Or would it be much more feasible to make the player in the TE's group come up with a workaround that produces the results in regards to game mechanics, but doesn't try to stick to the original goal of getting the animal type.
(assuming this isn't just some kind of intellectual exercise in the first place, since I fail to see why becoming an undead is a desirable goal)

"Make me a lich without the hassle/constant decay."

Also, you fail to see why becoming an undead is a desirable goal? Immortality, immunity to mortal ills, and (if you can get that ability off of, say, the Dry Lich that adds cha-to-HP) durability.

[MeanFightingGuy]

"Make me a lich without the hassle/constant decay."

No, I am talking about being exactly what you already are, just with all the UD traits on top of that, i.e. a standard character race with shitloads of perks and immunities. The question is whether it would make any sense, not whether becoming a real lich wouldn't actually be better (I guess a high level caster can work around all the downsides like infertility, decay etc.).

Also, you fail to see why becoming an undead is a desirable goal? Immortality, immunity to mortal ills, and (if you can get that ability off of, say, the Dry Lich that adds cha-to-HP) durability.

Woops. Of course I meant "I fail to see how becoming an animal type is a desirable goal."

[Kajhera]

There's a spell in one of the Twelve Black Scrolls in Magic of Rokugan that resurrects/reanimates someone as an undead. No other change. (Well, their soul's imprisoned, but eh, that comes along with the territory of undeath - just look at Shadow Sun Ninja vampires for another example.)

Comes from an artifact, but it can be learned as a ninth-level spell without needing artifact anymore, so it does give some precedent at Wish-level spell, though I'm not sure I'd trust that book considering my significant other's reaction to reading through it in more detail, and I'm not sure what edition it is exactly.

[Raineh Daze]

"Make me a lich without the hassle/constant decay."

No, I am talking about being exactly what you already are, just with all the UD traits on top of that, i.e. a standard character race with shitloads of perks and immunities. The question is whether it would make any sense, not whether becoming a real lich wouldn't actually be better (I guess a high level caster can work around all the downsides like infertility, decay etc.).

Yes, it makes sense. This is why most undead are templates.

[altpersona]

Yes, I would allow it.

The wish wording would govern the Int issue.

"I wish to be an animal", Thank you very much... your now a dog. woof.

as mentioned above, an Int 26 wisher is more likely to get it right.

lets also not forget to mention the Feat : Feral Rearing.

the best argument i can come up with for enforcing Animal Int is the line from Improving Monsters that says

"Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type."

which goes with this from the Animal Template

Traits
An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Low-light vision.
Alignment: Always neutral.
Treasure: None.
Proficient with its natural weapons only. A noncombative herbivore uses its natural weapons as a secondary attack. Such attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the creature’s attack rolls, and the animal receives only ½ its Strength modifier as a damage adjustment.
Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.

by that reasoning, If you apply Feral Rearing to a demon it becomes Neutral as well as dumb, hungry and tired.

or you apply it to a Construct who may not have a nose or mouth.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I think one of the SS Rituals does this, but at it's (confoozing) cost.


Spells below Wish level, change Type, but with other things happening.
If you duplicate a spell, sans all the other good stuff, Wish can do it.

[phaedrusxy]

lets also not forget to mention the Feat : Feral Rearing.

If for no other reason than the existence of this feat, you should allow it totally unmolested (no Int 2 business). If you think Wish shouldn't be able to grant you an extra feat, I guess you could argue it that way (but you could still allow them to swap out an existing feat for it, which is 100% within the power of Wish, by duplicating the Psychic Reformation power).

[ketaro]

You could just base it off of the Reincarnate spell which does not mention any changes to mental stats and only changes the physical stats based on the new form (not counting the gain or loss of racial bonuses to stats). *shrugs*

[bhu]

Same question, this time for vermin.