Author Topic: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...  (Read 13745 times)

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2014, 08:04:02 PM »
Not sure why AoO for being attacked falls under Lock Down.  It's helpful sure, but...kinda a different animal.  What SHOULD be on that list is "AoO for attacking [not me]."  To which I will add the Backstab feat from dragon mag.  Against an enemy you flank, each attack he makes that isn't against you provokes an AoO.  Combine with Island of Blades or Vexing/Adaptable Flanker for best results.

There's also the Tactical Soldier in MH that can do some nice flanking stuff and doesn't have to be in a stance or spend a swift action to get it.

Something to note about the OP: Dual-wielding kusari-gama and then taking Double Hit isn't really worth it.  Feats are very tight on the build and it's better to just have a spiked chain and do better average damage once the TWF penalty and more money to spend on a single weapon is factored in.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 09:13:10 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2014, 04:01:19 PM »
Still (sort'a) have the problem of getting the monsters to try to hit you in the first place.

There aren't a lot of options that force the monsters to focus on you.
I listed a few here:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10792.msg180739#msg180739
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline CE2JRH

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2014, 02:05:48 AM »
Guys, this is hilarious and awesome across the board.

Quote
Something to note about the OP: Dual-wielding kusari-gama and then taking Double Hit isn't really worth it.  Feats are very tight on the build and it's better to just have a spiked chain and do better average damage once the TWF penalty and more money to spend on a single weapon is factored in.

I think you're right, or even guisarm + armor spikes to save the spiked chain feat if I have to.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2014, 02:26:21 AM »
Reach + armor spikes would work for certain things, but something like Stand Still might benefit greatly from the increased damage of a proper 2-handed weapon at all ranges, which the spikes are not.  Depending on available materials getting a few exotic weapon profs isn't all that difficult actually.  The exoticist fighter variant in Dragon Magazine 310 gets four exotic weapon proficiencies free, and its allowed fighter feats include Combat Reflexes so there's little reason not to use the variant in a lockdown build if Dragon material is allowed.

If it wasn't for the fact that the spinning sword from Secrets of Sarlona can't benefit from being used 2-handed for 1.5x strength to damage, it'd probably be the go-to choice for adjacent + reach thanks to the Exotic Weapon Master's ability to get 2x strength to damage for attacking with it.  It's still useful for the Defensive Rebuke maneuver since it can be enchanted with the Whirling property since it's slashing damage, unlike a spiked chain which is piercing.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 02:36:18 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline CE2JRH

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2014, 02:40:14 PM »
Late reply as I look stuff up:

Quote
Also Knockback and Large and In Charge feats to just push the foe away; if you can get the ability to intimidate on each attack (not just Intimidating Strike feat) then Imperious Command + AoO will stop things in their tracks.

I haven't figured out how to do this. Any suggestions?

Offline Ithamar

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2014, 02:58:34 PM »
Intercepting weapon enhancement from Eberron: Forge of War.  Gives you a free attack anytime a foe tries to charge, trip, grapple, sunder, etc.  Very useful as it lets you attack for things that would not necessarily trigger an actual AoO.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2014, 03:59:57 PM »
Late reply as I look stuff up:

Quote
Also Knockback and Large and In Charge feats to just push the foe away; if you can get the ability to intimidate on each attack (not just Intimidating Strike feat) then Imperious Command + AoO will stop things in their tracks.

I haven't figured out how to do this. Any suggestions?

Intimidating Strike is the most straightforward way to use Intimidate on an attack.
Frightful Presence triggers on every attack but isn't truly Intimidate.
Terrifying Strike automatically causes the Shaken condition on a Sneak Attack.
Dreadful Wrath can trigger on a charge or full attack.
Resounding Blow triggers a save vs cower on a melee crit.
Avenging Executioner is a PrC whose 5th level ability is a save vs frightened (making the save reduces effect to shaken).
Ghost-faced Killers have a Frightful attack ability that kinda sucks.

Those are the main things I was able to look at before my attention was diverted.

Edit:
Daunting Strike can make the foe shaken for a minute.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 04:07:59 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline CE2JRH

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 03:35:21 PM »
Intimidating strikes action type is terrible, and the rest of those aren't actually intimidate. Unless I'm confused about the way intimidate/shaken work out?

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2014, 03:44:19 PM »
Nope, you're not.  None of the others are actually using intimidate.  The reason the others are in there is because they -might- be going along with the idea of the original intent to "intimidate on a strike" since the effect of intimidate is to debuff the enemy using the shaken or other fear conditions.  It might have been an attempt to get a melee attack to work with the Imperious Command feat.

Offline malcolmsprye

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 04:35:09 PM »
there's also that AoO for if they miss feat...

Defensive Throw (CW) : AoO if your Dodge target misses you.  Saw it used in a cause overreach build.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2014, 04:40:17 PM »
Nope, you're not.  None of the others are actually using intimidate.  The reason the others are in there is because they -might- be going along with the idea of the original intent to "intimidate on a strike" since the effect of intimidate is to debuff the enemy using the shaken or other fear conditions.  It might have been an attempt to get a melee attack to work with the Imperious Command feat.
Intimidating Strike + Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered seems like it could be worthy of a standard action, though...
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Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2014, 09:13:09 PM »
Nope, you're not.  None of the others are actually using intimidate.  The reason the others are in there is because they -might- be going along with the idea of the original intent to "intimidate on a strike" since the effect of intimidate is to debuff the enemy using the shaken or other fear conditions.  It might have been an attempt to get a melee attack to work with the Imperious Command feat.

Yeah, the whole idea of what I said was to find a way to use Imperious Command on AoOs.  For that you need intimidate.  Intimidating Strike won't cut it, nor will any of those other things.  I guess there is no way to do it w/o including Pathfinder material (Enforcer and Cornugon Smash would both work; and on a related note, Dastardly Finish feat lets you cop de grace cowering foes; PF does have some martial synergy w/ 3E...)

there's also that AoO for if they miss feat...
Defensive Throw (CW) : AoO if your Dodge target misses you.  Saw it used in a cause overreach build.

Yeah, Defensive Throw is nice but it's a trip attack which might not always be practical, and it has an obscene feats required list.  Cause Overreach is from the awesome Elusive Target tactical feat, and I do love it.  It is also trip AoOs, though.  And foes will presumably wise up quickly and stop trying to AoO you for moving.

Intimidating Strike + Imperious Command + Never Outnumbered seems like it could be worthy of a standard action, though...

It is.  Getting into position can be nigh-suicidal at times, but it's a lot of fun.  I used that combo on a Changeling Martial Rogue / Factotum / Warshaper build that was all about reach-whoring and lockdown w/ imperious command and tripping.  (Build was Rogue 4 / Factotum 3 [mainly for Brains Over Brawn] / Warshaper 4 with the rogue & factotum level-ups mixed; had we gotten higher level, I would've gone straight factotum; it was a cool build but super-crazy MAD and not for low point buy games)

Offline malcolmsprye

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2014, 10:50:32 AM »


there's also that AoO for if they miss feat...
Defensive Throw (CW) : AoO if your Dodge target misses you.  Saw it used in a cause overreach build.

Yeah, Defensive Throw is nice but it's a trip attack which might not always be practical, and it has an obscene feats required list.  Cause Overreach is from the awesome Elusive Target tactical feat, and I do love it.  It is also trip AoOs, though.  And foes will presumably wise up quickly and stop trying to AoO you for moving.


The other part of elusive target that causes them to auto miss you and hit their friend also synergizes with Defensive throw. The character in question was pretty darn good at tripping things.  Not much else (low damage, no social skills), but tripping was fine for him. :D

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2014, 02:45:16 PM »
Nope, you're not.  None of the others are actually using intimidate.  The reason the others are in there is because they -might- be going along with the idea of the original intent to "intimidate on a strike" since the effect of intimidate is to debuff the enemy using the shaken or other fear conditions.  It might have been an attempt to get a melee attack to work with the Imperious Command feat.

Yeah, the whole idea of what I said was to find a way to use Imperious Command on AoOs.  For that you need intimidate.  Intimidating Strike won't cut it, nor will any of those other things.  I guess there is no way to do it w/o including Pathfinder material (Enforcer and Cornugon Smash would both work; and on a related note, Dastardly Finish feat lets you coup de grace cowering foes; PF does have some martial synergy w/ 3E...)

Might that CDG tactic have some synergy with Death Blow?  I'll have to look at that PF stuff if only to see how nuts an AoO build could truly become with combined D&D and PF material.

Then again, cowering via Imperious Command can be done as a move or even swift action.  Zentarim Soldier ACF is rather nice like that.

Edit: Enforcer has exactly the language needed.  Cornugon Smash is likewise quite excellent.

Something wicked this way comes.   :plotting
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 05:16:11 PM by Jackinthegreen »

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2014, 01:51:26 AM »
Yes, Dastardly Finish does expands the situations you can use CDG to include cowering, so Deathblow would work with it just fine.  I was always really underwhelmed by Deathblow, it should've done more like most of th "improved" feats.  Avoiding provoking AoOs would've been nice...

Note that Dastardly Finish requires +5d6 sneak attack, though if you have all of 3E and PF available, you can easily get that dipping around w/o having to devote many levels to rogue or the like.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2014, 06:37:07 PM »
I'd probably give Death Blow the option to either do it as a standard but still provoke or do it full-action but not provoke.

Oh dear...  Cornugon Smash with this build just for the hell of it.  Needs better Cha for Imperious Command though.

Offline CE2JRH

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2014, 03:01:04 PM »
I'm not super interested in Pathfinder material. That being said, that Lockdown Boomerang Daze build is pretty cool; I'll add it to the handbook.

Offline Jackinthegreen

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Re: A true Lock-Down has the following abilities...
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2014, 03:14:02 PM »
If you're going to add Boomerang Daze to it, make sure to have the disclaimer about the Aptitude Weapon cheese.