Precocious Apprentice

[linklord231]

SorO:  So basically what you're saying is "you can't cast a spell at a CL lower than the level a generic member of your class would get that spell at, unless you have an explicit ability that lets you."  I agree with that.  From what you said above, it sounded like you meant "you can't cast a spell at a CL lower than the level a generic member of your class would get that spell, ever." 

Edit:  I just realized, my definition earlier would exclude Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell from letting you enter a PrC early, since it doesn't give you a spell slot, even though it explicitly lets you cast spells of a higher level than you normally could.  Hmmm 

[altpersona]

SorO:  So basically what you're saying is "you can't cast a spell at a CL lower than the level a generic member of your class would get that spell at, unless you have an explicit ability that lets you."  I agree with that.  From what you said above, it sounded like you meant "you can't cast a spell at a CL lower than the level a generic member of your class would get that spell, ever." 

Edit:  I just realized, my definition earlier would exclude Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell from letting you enter a PrC early, since it doesn't give you a spell slot, even though it explicitly lets you cast spells of a higher level than you normally could.  Hmmm 

thats the combo i called cheesy.

[Kajhera]

Hmm ... I think, it is possible we could go with the interpretation that Precocious Apprentice negates itself by its own qualifiers.

Obviously not intended, but it's an interesting thought exercise, while we're working to come up with a consistent interpretation of what was intended. Since ... you have a spell slot, and can cast at least one 2nd-level spell spell, and I'm not convinced that there is anything separating it from casting other than fiat (even official fiat).

(Haven't been following Solo's secondary argument too well, but ... In theory you could cast all your 2nd level spells with caster level 2 with one optional ruleset at least - the trait, Spellgifted, could decrease the caster level of all of a wizard's spells by 1 if they selected carefully against their own build choices. Unless you actively can't take 3rd level spells of those schools until wizard 6. This might be true. Now I am rather curious.)

At that point, you lose the benefit, but still retain the bonus 2nd-level spell slot, and likely still must succeed the level check to cast the particular spell you chose in the first place, if you know it, since your level is still not high enough to cast it.

You might not have any 2nd level spells known. I think there are some methods that give you spells known beyond what your level normally would, which may have been referenced in this thread already, but I am not familiar with them; failing that, your second level spell slots would be usable only for such mechanisms as powering feats or possibly spellthieves.

... Interesting that the feat does not obligate you to keep the spell. Interesting also that it does not give you the spell known at all. How is a sorcerer even using this feat, as written?

Interesting that apparently all you're actually losing upon being able to cast 2nd-level spells appears to be the penalties.

[SorO_Lost]

I agree with that.  From what you said above, it sounded like you meant "you can't cast a spell at a CL lower than the level a generic member of your class would get that spell, ever." 

Oh, wires crossed then. Thank Pelor.

Edit:  I just realized, my definition earlier would exclude Versatile Spellcaster

Which by the way is the only thing in D&D that supports the concept of early entry. Without it Feat, PrCs, & Bonus Slots build the intent of level only for allowance and there is nothing contrary to say otherwise.

And this comes solely from the FAQ (otherwise you can simply argue CL), the rules supplement a couple of you guys want to ignore because it nerfs your ideas. Next someone will be bitching about it being too powerful

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

So for anyone who reads this in the future, Soro stresses the "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells" to mean that this doesn't allow actually casting 2nd level spells. He finds this absolute. And, you know, the FAQ.

Everyone else notices the plural and thinks that it doesn't work because you can only do it once per day, so it needs another slot. The solution, as mentioned, is to gain another slot so PA becomes 'normal'. Heighten doesn't work since the PA slot cannot be used for any other spell.

The cool part of this interpretation is that it is a stealth nerf to the few caster classes that have only 1 spell known of level x and can only cast that one spell of that particular level. Thus they can't cast x level spells. Caster nerfs are a good thing.

[SorO_Lost]

So for anyone who reads this in the future, Soro stresses the "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells" to mean that this doesn't allow actually casting 2nd level spells. He finds this absolute.

Nay.

I could care less about the number. PA it's self contains a clause stating when you become able to cast 2nd level Spells PA becomes a Bonus 2nd level Slot. Therefor, anytime you observe the ability to cast 2nd level Spells, PA is granting no such trait. The 'trick' fails per FAQ, Intent, and logic. And while any one of those is enough for me, three of them is certainty.

Someone else jumped in with that 4th observation why the "trick" fails. As if anyone is dumb enough to need yet another.

[Raineh Daze]

The cool part of this interpretation is that it is a stealth nerf to the few caster classes that have only 1 spell known of level x and can only cast that one spell of that particular level. Thus they can't cast x level spells. Caster nerfs are a good thing.

Nerfing the sorcerer but not the wizard is meaningless.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

A refreshed sorc can always cast a spell 3 times a day. Fast casters however...

I could care less about the number.

I know. The bolding wasn't for you.

[Raineh Daze]

A refreshed sorc can always cast a spell 3 times a day. Fast casters however...

Still only one spell.

So for anyone who reads this in the future, Soro stresses the "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells" to mean that this doesn't allow actually casting 2nd level spells. He finds this absolute.

Nay.

I could care less about the number. PA it's self contains a clause stating when you become able to cast 2nd level Spells PA becomes a Bonus 2nd level Slot. Therefor, anytime you observe the ability to cast 2nd level Spells, PA is granting no such trait. The 'trick' fails per FAQ, Intent, and logic. And while any one of those is enough for me, three of them is certainty.

Someone else jumped in with that 4th observation why the "trick" fails. As if anyone is dumb enough to need yet another.

I find it more amusing that the interpretation that PA gives you a second level slot, then negates its own granting of said slot, leads to an endless loop of PA granting and ungranting the ability.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

then negates its own granting of said slot

There's a distinction I can see on the inferred gaining of the slot vs the not quite able to cast 2nd level spells language in the feat. But yes when viewed as negating exactly what it added, we've got ourselves another dragon disciple.