Best Build for Wizard/Psion

[vaz]

I've never played it either way - I just enjoy their existence on the planes so that my Psions can pick up their spells via Expanded Knowledge and Substitute Powers enables them to be an Ardent Mantles.

The question is, does that apply to Prestige Classes?

[Emanresu]

If a character with erudite levels gains at least as many levels in another psionic class as he has in his erudite class, he permanently loses the ability to add additional powers (above and beyond the two gained at each new erudite level) to his repertoire of powers known.

above is copied n pasted from erudite class...why would anyone want to violate this?

[Emanresu]

Am I missing something about the Erudite? It is my understanding, that they get 2 powers per level just like a Psion. These powers can be accessed and used just as a Psion does. 2ndly they also have the ability to learn new powers via some items and minds of others. The StP variant allows them to suck these spells from the minds or items of the arcane as well.  The only limit they have is everyday they can manifest different powers up until they reach there "unique" limit"...So at 1st level they may very well have 4 powers to choose from but once they pick one thats the only one they can cast the rest of the day. 

Is this right? or am I indeed missing something

[awaken_D_M_golem]

So we can speculate, that the designers were
working on some of proto-4e while doing CPsi.
And that Erudite getting a 4e-ish-like restriction
on multiclassing and prestige classing, was them
stretching their wings on this kind of idea.
Pain in the polymorphed@ss, I know.

Uniques is also a hard cap.
There's a +1 Uniques per day feat in Dragon.
Powerstones are the obvious work around.
Linked Power is cheesy work around (but legal).
Uniques per level per day, is a 1 location
probable whoopsy, but improves Erudite a lot.
Not rules as intended (most likely).

[Emanresu]

Some interpret the unique powers as per level? Thats seems a farcical stretch...

A bit off subject, but related nonetheless, if for nothing else than the word Unique, is the Prestigious bard and his "Unique" problem. RAW or RAI seems to be in "translation limbo". The Prest Bard offers all spells unique to the Bard. A spontaneous caster like say the Beguiler knows his entire list. This would seem again "farcical" for the writers/creators to intend for this player to have the largest spells known list in creation.

Then on the other hand, yet equally as absurd, the believe it was only intended for those spells only found available to the Bard and strictly for the Bard alone. This translation would net you 1 spell, Lullaby, I believe 0 level. So this seems to be a waste of ink on the publishers side. To further this crazy interpretation is carried over to the Prest Paladin, there is but 1 spell there as well, a low level mount spell.

BUT there is another bit of info that is also ambiguous, under the unique spell info is the suggestion that DMs may "alternatively" allow all splatbook spells for Bard n Pali to be accessible along with the above...

[ZombieGirl]

Its not a farce or a stretch?

Text from the book:

 "An Erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a Psion, an Erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level.

This means the unique power limitation is per power level. Thus, a 4th level erudite is limited to manifesting 3 unique 2nd level powers and 3 unique 1st level powers and so on. Emphasis on the "of each level per day" part of the text. If the Erudite's unique powers were in regards to his entire repertoire, there'd be no need for that text to be there, it would simply say "unique powers per day from the repertoire of powers he knows".

[ZombieGirl]

On another note. Picking up the Chameleon Crafting feat will technically give you access to Psionic Warrior powers as an StP Erudite. Its the only way to get them.

[Hades]

Check out the Mind Mage in Dragon #315ish

I second that.

"twin wells same source" grants a massive boost to caster-manifester level, and psi-spell feats are great.

A wizard 1/psion 3/cere 6/mind mage 10 casts spells like a 15th lev wizard and manifests like a 17th lev psion, but with CL 25 and ML 27, without any need of practiced spellcaster-mainfester.

[Endarire]

Hades: How does your Wiz1/Psion3/Cerebremancer6/Mind Mage10 work if he has Practiced Manifester and Practiced Spellcaster?

Would it be possible or more viable to switch this build to Wizard3/Psion1?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

I'd assume he's got early entry fixed in somewhere.

To go Psion 1 needs some decent sized trickery.
PLZ has on his guide, when in doubt go Psychic Chiurgery.
I found a use for the whatchamacallit* feat at the bottom
of the Mind's Eye Erudite section.  Cheese though.
*edit --- it's the Psychic Sight feat.

Mind Mage is good and fun, but it does fall behind
the normal Wiz progression if you aren't careful.
The Mind Mage guide has lots more stuff.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

One day I'll get around to posting all my builds... Have a sloppy copy-paste



If allowing 2 books for 2 ACFs, 1 book for a Prc with 2 feats & another 2 feats from another source (CA) for persist spell and sanctum spell                                 
                                 
   Level      BAB   Fort   Reflex   Will   Bloodline   HD   Class Features   CL   ML
1   Wizard 1 (Focused Specialist CM34, UA Feat feat&Diviner, Immediate Magic PBHII68)   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   2.50      Extend Spell, sanctum spell -> overchannel @ lvl 8, improved init, Psionic Prodigy (int is +2for pp and DC's) at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030829a   Fighter Feat->obtain familiar in 2 levels for hummingbird familiar +4ini (DragMag323p98), no familiar=Abrupt Jaunt immediate action, focused conjurer (ban evocation&enchantment&illusion) +3Specialist slots   Arcane 1   
2   Psion 1   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   2.50         Psycrystal (+2initiative)      Psionics 1
3   Cerebremancer 1   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   2.50      Dual plane summons      Arcane 2   Psionics 2
4   Cerebremancer 2   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50   Harden Energy (feat for mind mage)         Arcane 3   Psionics 3
5   Mind Mage 1 [DragMag313p51]   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   2.50         ignore V,S,M>1gp components, 2pp per   Arcane 4   
6   Mind Mage 2   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         3pp per metamagic or 1spell level per metapsionic      Psionics 4
7   Mind Mage 3   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         +1spell DC if have 5pp unexpended (superceeded below)   Arcane 5   
8   Mind Mage 4   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         RAI: manifest concussive blast to cast touch spell      Psionics 5
9   Mind Mage 5   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         Add +5 ML (superceded below)   Arcane 6   Psionics 6
10   Mind Mage 6   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         6->10/day free 1 level heighten power   Arcane 7   Psionics 7
11   Mind Mage 7   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         -4 spell levels when preparing by spending 32pp   Arcane 8   Psionics 8
12   Mind Mage 8   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         Int mod/day will save on damaging spell/power for -2save, +100nonlethal damage   Arcane 9   Psionics 9
13   Mind Mage 9   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         +2spell DC if have 10pp unexpended   Arcane 10   Psionics 10
14   Mind Mage 10   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50         +10 ML, +10CL   Arcane 11   Psionics 11
15   Cerebremancer 3   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50            Arcane 12   Psionics 12
16   Cerebremancer 4   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50            Arcane 13   Psionics 13
17   Cerebremancer 5   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50            Arcane 14   Psionics 14
18   Cerebremancer 6   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50            Arcane 15   Psionics 15
19   Cerebremancer 7   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50            Arcane 16   Psionics 16
20   Cerebremancer 8   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   0.50            Arcane 17   Psionics 17 (34ML, 34CL)



I have the best spells/powers known as well ... if you're not just blowing WBL to catch all the pokemon learn all the spells/powers available. If 9th level powers/spells are banned (as they should be), grab magic mantle for extra transparency abuse.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Followed PLZ's link above.
I had not read that page below the powers before.
Wow, those have some interesting 3.0/3.5 interactions!!


Disciplined Mind feat ... can reduce the snot out of Caster Stats.
Remember the X-Codes thread, about questioning the sacred cow,
whether Casters needed that stat, but not above 19 ??
Heck you could take 9 of this feat, and -fest with a 1.
A 1 , really.
That's part outrageous, and part awesome.

Retrograde Chain feat ... with some massaging could prove
useful for Erudites, to stave off using/needing PsyRef cycling.

[nijineko]

the link no longer works, it seems. but you can still find both feats in the minds eye article in my Archive.

[7h39]

Hi! i have a question on early entry mechanincs. What about using spells and power stones or wands and dorjes?

for example:

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells. Psionics: Able to manifest 2nd-level powers.

Activate the Spell
(...) To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

Activation
(...)
The user must have the power on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite key ability score.
If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure.

Emphasis mine. -  So in both cases the text says that the pc "casts" the spell and "manifests" the power. To be (fully) able to manifest a higher level power wizard side needs the Arcane Mastery feat (auto 10 on CL checks), and Overchannel for the Psi side (not much cheese here)

Wizard 1/Psion 2
Feats: Lv1:Arcane Mastery, BonusPsion: Overchannel
Equipment: Scroll of hideous laughter 150gp, Power Stone of Bestow Power 150gp
- Auto Succes to caster level check to cast Lv2 Spell, Overchannel +1ML to cast Bestow Power (ML3).
Power/spell choice is not casual
In this case Arcane Mastery >> Precocius Apprentice, 'cose grants casting of 5th level spells from scrolls.

Given enough money also Wands/Dorjes do the trick:

Activation
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

Activation
Dorjes use the power trigger activation method, so manifesting a power from a dorje is usually a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the power being manifested has a manifesting time longer than 1 standard action, however, it takes that long to manifest the power from a dorje.) The user must have the power on his class list, even if he knows the command thought. Additionally, to activate a dorje, a character must hold it in hand and point it in the general direction of the target or area to be affected.

[7h39]

One day I'll get around to posting all my builds... Have a sloppy copy-paste



If allowing 2 books for 2 ACFs, 1 book for a Prc with 2 feats & another 2 feats from another source (CA) for persist spell and sanctum spell                                 
                                 
   Level      BAB   Fort   Reflex   Will   Bloodline   HD   Class Features   CL   ML
1   Wizard 1 (Focused Specialist CM34, UA Feat feat&Diviner, Immediate Magic PBHII68)   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   2.50      Extend Spell, sanctum spell -> overchannel @ lvl 8, improved init, Psionic Prodigy (int is +2for pp and DC's) at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030829a   Fighter Feat->obtain familiar in 2 levels for hummingbird familiar +4ini (DragMag323p98), no familiar=Abrupt Jaunt immediate action, focused conjurer (ban evocation&enchantment&illusion) +3Specialist slots   Arcane 1   
2   Psion 1   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   2.50         Psycrystal (+2initiative)      Psionics 1
3   Cerebremancer 1   2 + d4   0.50   0.33   0.33   2.50      Dual plane summons      Arcane 2   Psionics 2

wow! how can you qualify by wiz1/psi1 for cerebremancer?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

the link no longer works, it seems. but you can still find both feats in the minds eye article in my Archive.

I think they've got the link biff ironed out as much as they'll need to / or try to.
Replace the www with archive, like this:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030829a