Author Topic: Leng Spider  (Read 14133 times)

Offline Rakoa

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Leng Spider
« on: May 06, 2014, 04:00:48 PM »
Leng Spider



HD: d10
Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features
1+1+2+2+0Leng Spider Body, Poison, Stat Boosts
2+2+3+3+0Leng Spells, Weave Web
3+3   +3   +3   +1Web Weaponry, Defences I
4+4   +4   +4   +1Web Palace, Broodmother   
5+5   +4   +4   +1Tremorsense, Cocoon   
6+6   +5   +5   +2Growth, Crush the Weak   
7+7   +5   +5   +2   Poisoned Threads, Extreme Grace
8+8   +6   +6   +2   Advanced Traps, Defences II
9+9   +6   +6   +3   Feast, Zipline
10+10   +7   +7   +3   Hallucinogen, Growth
11+11   +7   +7   +3   Venerable Broodmother, Spawn Spider
12+12 +8   +8   +4   Magic Traps, Smooth Chitin
13+13 +8   +8   +4   Instant Cocoon, Bulbous Body
14+14 +9   +9   +4   Spider Overlord

Class Skills (2+ Int Modifier): Climb, Craft, Concentration, Knowledge (any), Hide, Jump, Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Tumble,

Proficiencies: A Leng Spider is proficient with only it's natural weapons.

Leng Spider Body: A Denizen of Leng loses all previous racial traits and gains the Magical Beast type. It is a medium sized Magical Beast with a base land speed of 40 feet, darkvision out to 60 ft and low light vision. They gain a bonus to natural armour equal to their con modifier +2. This natural armour bonus increases by 1 every time the Leng Spider gains a size category. It also has a bite attack that deals 1d6+str mod damage. It does possess fine manipulation.

The Leng Spider also has a climb speed equal to it's land speed. It has a racial +8 bonus to the climb skill, and can climb even when otherwise threatened or rushed.

The Leng Spider gains the Extraplanar subtype when it is not on the Plateau of Leng.

Poison: At first level, a Leng Spider's bite causes a target bitten to experience the effects of it's poison. The target's flesh blisters and rots away, causing 1d4 con damage unless he succeeds on a saving throw (DC 10+1/2HD+con mod). The target continues to take this damage every round for (HD/2) rounds (at the beginning of their turn), but can make a Fortitude saving throw at the same DC to ignore it for that round. Two successful consecutive saves cure the target of the poison. This poison has no secondary damage. At 10HD, the poison even affects targets immune to it, but they receive a +5 bonus on their saving throw. If the target has no constitution score, they instead take strength damage.

Stat Boosts: The Leng Spider gains +1 cha at levels 1,5,9,11,13,14 +1 con at levels 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,14 and +1 dex at levels 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14, for a total of +6 cha, +8 con, and +8 dex at level 14.

Leng Spells: At second level, the Leng Spider gains access to certain spells. At this point, it represents itself as a constant Tongues effect. However, more options become available as the Leng Spider gains more levels in this class, as shown below. Save DCs for any of these SLAs are 10+1/2HD+cha mod. CL=HD.

(click to show/hide)

Weave Web: The Leng Spider advances to the point that it is capable of producing webs. At second level, a Leng Spider gains a number of Web Charges per day equal to it's HD+Con mod. They can be used as a Web Attack costing one charge. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets of up to the Leng Spider's own size. The web anchors the target in place, allowing no movement.

An entangled creature can escape with a DC (10+HD+Con modifier) Escape Artist check or burst the web with a DC (10+1/2HD+Con modifier) Strength check. The web has 2*HD hit points, hardness 0, and takes double damage from fire.

Alternate uses of web are listed below:
(click to show/hide)
A Leng Spider can move across its own sheet web at its climb speed and can determine the exact location of any creature touching the web.

A Leng Spider that is on it's own web takes no penalties to hide for it's size.


Web Weaponry: At third level, as a full-round action, the Leng Spider can construct a masterwork Web Weapon by attaching a heavy object to a strand of web. This consumes one Web Charge. This weapon functions as both a masterwork flail and a masterwork bolas, based on how the Leng Spider decides to use it from round to round. It can only wield one such weapon at a time, and only it or another Leng Spider can use them without taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

Defences I: At third level, the Leng Spider gains resistance to poison, cold, and sonic equal to 2xHD, as well as gaining Fast Healing equal to half it's HD.

Advanced Traps: Leng Spiders are artistic trap builders extraordinaire, more so even than other spiders. At fourth level, the Leng Spider can create the following traps as a full round action: poisoned dart trap, razor wire across hallway, ceiling pendulum, and falling block. However, they use the Leng Spider's attack rolls to hit, the poisoned dart trap inflicts the spider's own poison, and the falling block trap deals 1d6 damage per HD. Setting up these traps also requires the appropriate materials, such as darts, blocks, greataxes, etc. Any other materials are made out of spiderweb. The Search and Disable Device DCs are 10+1/2HD+con mod.

The number of traps a Leng Spider can have in existence is equal to it's HD. Attempting to create a trap once the limit has been reached will cause the oldest trap in existence to collapse uselessly as the webs making it up disintegrate.

Broodmother: At fourth level, as a fullround action 1/minute you can lay a clutch of eggs on a 5-feet square you occupy, that in the next round hatch in a Spider Swarm that follows your commands for 1 round/HD before dispersing and going to their own lives, potentially growing to new Leng Spiders one day. You may delay the hatching any amount of time up to 24 hours, but once laid they cannot be moved from their place whitout killing the young spiders inside. Until they hatch, an egg clutch can be destroyed by dealing 5 damage to them. If you lay them in your Web Palace, you make a Hide check to conceal them. They don't make any noise until they hatch. Taken from Oslecamo's awesome Monstrous Spider Class

Tremorsense: The Leng Spider gains Tremorsense 5ft/HD.

Cocoon: The Leng Spider may attempt to grapple enemies entangled in it's webs without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it manages to pin an entangled enemy and maintain this pin for (5 rounds - 1 round per size category the Leng Spider is larger, minimum 1 round), and it expends a web charge each round that the pin is maintained, then the target is considered Cocooned. A Cocooned target can take no action except for purely mental actions. A cocoon has 5HP/HD, and can be damaged by carefully using a slashing weapon as a full-round action. The cocoon takes half damage from piercing weapons, but the Cocooned target takes full damage. Any amount of fire instantly burns away the cocoon, but causes 1d6 fire damage/5HP remaining on the cocoon to the Cocooned target.

If a target is Cocooned within your Web Palace, then they may be moved and even hidden with the Hide skill. Otherwise, they are immobile. A Cocooned target can make no sound.

Growth: The Leng Spider increases by one size category at sixth level.

Web Palace: At sixth level, the Leng Spider gains the ability to create a Web Palace, an area of haunting beauty and terrifying appearance. Creating a Web Palace takes 8 hours of work and requires the consumption of all the Leng Spider's daily Web Charges. A roughly square area of 100 feet/HD on each side is covered in purplish webs. Animals will not enter the area. The Leng Spider weaves these webs even through dimensions, allowing it to detect movement anywhere within the Web Palace as with Tremorsense, but regardless of where the Leng Spider itself is. Once per day, it can transport itself to the Web Palace as per Word of Recall, but only while in contact with webs.

Any creatures that enter the Web Palace are Shaken for as long as they remain within (no save), or for one hour, after which they become more accustomed to the otherwordly space they have entered. If they leave and re-enter, they are once again subject to the status effect.

The Leng Spider can also spend one Web Charge per enemy within 10ft/HD that is also within the boundaries of the Web Palace as a standard action. This causes the Web Palace to shift slightly, becoming even more eerily beautiful. Each enemy must succeed on a Will save (DC 10+1/2HD+Cha mod) or become Fascinated as per the Bard ability. As with the Bard ability, the distraction of nearby dangers prohibits this ability from affecting them (and the sight of the Leng Spider alone is sufficient to fulfill that). Unaffected enemies can use a full-round action to rouse their affected allies, granting them another saving throw with a +5 bonus.

As a full-round action, the Leng Spider can spend one web charge per Fascinated enemy within 10 ft/HD. They become entangled, and should the Leng Spider continue to spend Web Charges every round, the cocooning process begins as described in Cocoon. Each round, the enemies can attempt a Spot check against the Leng Spider's Hide check to notice the imminent danger of being Cocooned. If successful, the Cocooning process ends upon that foe, but he or she is still Entangled.

A Leng Spider can only have one Web Palace at a time.

Spawn Spider: At seventh level, when you inject poison in a prey, you may inject some of your eggs along with it. The next round, they spawn from inside your enemy's body and fill their square, forcing them to make a Fort save with DC 10+1/2HD+Con mod or be dazed for 1 round from the horrible experience. For each size your oponent is bigger than medium, an extra  Spider Swarm is spawned as the youngs have more to feast upon and thus prey less on their own brothers and sisters. This shares uses per day with Broodmother. Ability stolen from Oslecamo's awesome Monstrous Spider class.

Extreme Grace: Despite their immense size, Leng Spiders are known for being capable of incredibly dexterous movements. Such is their grace that at seventh level, the Leng Spider can combine a free action with a regular action one per round to prevent that action from provoking an attack of opportunity. The spider's webs are now made with added care and great coordination, allowing them to contain even creatures under a Freedom of Movement effect, and treating them as if they were in an area affected by Dimensional Anchor.


Crush the Weak: Leng Spiders believe they are the most advanced form of life there is, and desire to crush all of those weaker than them in order to attain positions of power. At eighth level, the Leng Spider's abilities gain a +2 DC for every size category it is larger than it's target, or for every 2HD it has more than it (whichever is more advantageous). It also never takes a size penalty to AC or attack rolls.


Defences II: The Leng Spider gains immunity to confusion and insanity, as well as SR 11+HD at eighth level. This SR can be raised or lowered at any time, even when it isn't the Leng Spider's turn. In addition, the resistances from Defences I become immunities.

Feast: At ninth level, the Leng Spider can kill a Cocooned creature in a process that takes X hours, where X = (Creatures HD - Your HD). X is always at least 1. Each hour, the Cocooned creature loses 1/X of it's maximum hitpoint total, healing the Leng Spider for an equal amount. This process is also incredibly, painfully agonizing. This has no mechanical effects, but damn, it hurts.

Feast does not affect creatures that are immune to sneak attack or critical hits.

Zipline: At ninth level, the Leng Spider can shoot an anchoring web to any point it can see by spending one Web Charge per 30ft distance, and then pull itself to that point as a standard action.

Hallucinogen: At tenth level, enemies affected by the Leng Spider's poison must also make a Will save (DC 10+1/2HD+con mod) or be affected by a Confusion effect (CL=Leng Spider's HD).

Growth: At tenth level, the Leng Spider grows another size category. If all Leng Spider levels were taken, it grows another size category at 15HD and at 20HD.

Venerable Broodmother: At eleventh level, both your eggs and your produced Spider Swarm now gain 5 extra HP for every HD you have. The swarm damage of your spider swarms increases to 1d6 per 2HD you have, the save DC of its distraction ability increases by any amount equal to ½ HD+Con mod and its Poison now works as your own, except it only  deals half the ill effects (half Con damage, and enemies get to save to fight off confusion every round). Additionally, you can cause any or all of your eggs to hatch prematurely as a full-round action, but they only fight for you for half as long. Ability stolen from Oslecamo's awesome Monstrous Spider class, slight changes made.

Poisoned Threads: At eleventh level, the Leng Spider can apply poison to it's webs. Entangled creatures must make a fortitude save (same DC as the bite poison) each round that they are in contact with the threads or suffer the poison damage of the spider's bite. Webs can be made out of poisoned thread once per day per HD. Web Weapons made out of Poisoned Threads poison enemies that are successfully hit.

Magic Traps: At twelfth level, the Leng Spider can create magic traps as a full-round action by expending a use of one of it's SLAs. The trap must correspond to the SLA expended (so a Leng Spider could expend a use of Insanity to create a Trap of Insanity). Such traps use the same DCs as the SLAs, same CL, same Search and Disable Device as Advanced Traps traps, affect one target, and have a Location trigger.

Smooth Chitin: At twelfth level, the Leng Spider's chitinous skeleton becomes incredibly smooth, allowing half of it's natural armour to apply to it's touch AC and also granting it a deflection bonus to AC equal to it's cha mod.

Instant Cocoon: At thirteenth level, the Leng Spider is a master of the art of cocooning. If the Leng Spider successfully bites an opponent as a full-round action, and that opponent fails it's save against either the Confusion effect or the poison, the Leng Spider can spend a Web Charge and attempt a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity. If successful, the opponent becomes Cocooned.

Bulbous Body: At thirteenth level, the Leng Spider can use it's enormous, bloated purple body to crush it's enemies as it moves. This attack takes a full-round action to use and allows the spider to move up to it's speed and then attack an area adjacent to it equal to it's space. Enemies within this area may make a reflex DC (10+1/2HD+con mod) for half damage and the damage is 1d6/2HD. As a free action, the Leng Spider can spend one Web Charge to entangle any enemies it damages with this ability.

Spider Overlord: At fourteenth level, the Leng Spider attains true mastery of all things spidery. The size of it's Web Palace becomes 1000 ft/HD squared. Two Web Palaces may now be in existence at a time. Attempting to create a third causes a currently existing Web Palace of the Leng Spider's choice to collapse. Additionally, the Leng Spider's abilities no longer cost Web Charges.

While within the boundaries of it's Web Palace, the Leng Spider can add it's full Charisma modifier to the DC of it's abilities instead of just half.

The Leng Spider can use Word of Recall at will to transport itself from one Web Palace to the other.

Comments:
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 05:53:34 PM by Rakoa »
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Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2014, 08:23:14 PM »
This completes the Leng Spider. Now available for critiques! As always, feel free to yell at me if I went overboard anywhere.  :)
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Offline ketaro

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2014, 08:40:30 PM »
13th and 14th level on the chart have no listed class features :p

Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2014, 08:53:31 PM »
13th and 14th level on the chart have no listed class features :p

Yes, those levels progress only saves and BAB. It's a balance thing, you see.  :P

Fixed the table. Thanks for pointing that one out!
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 08:59:16 PM »
Should bulbous body have a size limitation (targets must be 1 size category smaller than the spider, and must all be standing in a space no bigger than the spider's own body)?

It looks pretty awesome, especially the horrific "spiders under your skin eating you" attack...  :hide
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Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2014, 09:05:19 PM »
Should bulbous body have a size limitation (targets must be 1 size category smaller than the spider, and must all be standing in a space no bigger than the spider's own body)?
Huh, it does look like I only half-wrote that ability. Clarified that it allows you to move and "attack" an area equal to your own space as a full-round action, reflex save for half damage.
It looks pretty awesome, especially the horrific "spiders under your skin eating you" attack...  :hide
Yes, thank you, totally my idea one hundred percent. Or Oslecamo's. One or the other, anyway.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 07:42:03 AM »
-Poison is scaling waaayyy too fast, the Leng Spider is supposed to just deal 1d4 Con damage at level 14.
-New spell gains should be unlocked with levels, otherwise you can just dip two levels of this and get it all.
-Three full immunities plus a bunch of extras at 3rd level is a bit too much. Either scale down to resistances or spread them out.
-Extreme Grace is kinda of a "f*** you!" to mundane melees everywhere. Could probably just be an extra bonus against Aoos.
-It should have a limitation to how many free traps it can have up at a time.
-Stolen "early hatch" back to the awakened monstrous spider.
-Oh, gimme a break! You were going so well, and then "the whole world is now covered in web palaces with a gazillion free minions, and now all at-will SLAs, including the at-will charm monster that will soon upgrade to at-will dominate monster"! :banghead

Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 12:24:03 PM »
-Poison is scaling waaayyy too fast, the Leng Spider is supposed to just deal 1d4 Con damage at level 14.
That is true, but the Pathfinder spider's poison is dealing that 1d4 damage every round for 6 rounds, unless you can succeed on two consecutive saves.

EDIT: At level 14, the Leng Spider's poison will inflict 3d6 damage, or an average of 11 con damage. The PF monster, on the other hand, will do an average of 15. The only advantage of the class's poison is that it works faster. If you'd like, I could set it up as a poison that functions in a similar way to the PF version of poison, rather than the 3.5 method? Perhaps a fortitude save against 1d4 con damage, and the save has to be repeated every round, for a number of rounds equal to your HD/2? Succeeding on two consecutive saves frees you from the poison effects. Unless you get bitten again.


-New spell gains should be unlocked with levels, otherwise you can just dip two levels of this and get it all.
Good point. Changed that up.
-Three full immunities plus a bunch of extras at 3rd level is a bit too much. Either scale down to resistances or spread them out.
I changed them to resistances equal to 2xHD, becoming immunities when Defences II is unlocked.
-Extreme Grace is kinda of a "f*** you!" to mundane melees everywhere. Could probably just be an extra bonus against Aoos.
Altered it so that it's once per round, rather than constant.
-It should have a limitation to how many free traps it can have up at a time.
Oh, d'uh. I forgot to put that in when I was writing it up, haha. Trap limit is equal to HD.
-Stolen "early hatch" back to the awakened monstrous spider.
Glad I could be of service!  :D
-Oh, gimme a break! You were going so well, and then "the whole world is now covered in web palaces with a gazillion free minions, and now all at-will SLAs, including the at-will charm monster that will soon upgrade to at-will dominate monster"! :banghead
....it was late, okay?  :P Yeah I may not have thought that one through too well. I've altered it so that it changes the size of the palace to 1000ft/HD and doubles the spider guard pool, as well as effectively removing web charge from abilities (because I guess you just have loads of web now) but I fear that this may be a rather unimpressive capstone, since you probably had a crapload of Web Charges anyway and the Web Palace (though cool, if you ask me) doesn't do much for an adventuring Leng Spider unless you want to set up a safe place to rest really badly (and didn't go the Hoard feat route).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 12:22:36 AM by Rakoa »
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 08:20:44 PM »
Let it use Word of Recall to return to its Web Palace at will, or X times per day, as part of the capstone?
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Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 08:52:02 PM »
Let it use Word of Recall to return to its Web Palace at will, or X times per day, as part of the capstone?

Ohoho, hey, that's good! That's very good. I'll add that in there. Thanks!

EDIT: Also added in that the Leng Spider can have two Web Palaces in existence at a time. This allows the Leng Spider to have a more permanent, heavily defended Web Palace in existence to serve as a Horde vault, and then another one that can be erected as need be to make a safe place to rest for an extended period of time, or to serve as a location to Word of Recall to that is closer to the party after having Word of Recalled to the Vault to retrieve something.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 12:16:17 AM by Rakoa »
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 11:37:28 AM »
Increasing the are to 1000 feet/HD squared is way too much, even with "just" two webs. You can pretty much cover the whole adventure area with it.

Heck, even 100 square feet per HD is already pretty overkill.

Speaking of which, no matter how I look at this, it just seems like "Monstrous Spider, but stronger in every way". Just look at the 4th level, the Leng Spider gets higher HD, more saves, massive web, minions, SLAs, broodmother, and the monstrous spider just gets broodmother.

Now the monstrous spider may be the one a bit on the weaker side, in particular after some chances I got of testing it.  I would be willing to go there and boost it a bit all around.

But I then don't want to return here and see that you started an arms race and futher boosted the leng spider. What do you think?

Offline Gazzien

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 11:59:16 AM »
Increasing the are to 1000 feet/HD squared is way too much, even with "just" two webs. You can pretty much cover the whole adventure area with it.

Heck, even 100 square feet per HD is already pretty overkill.

Speaking of which, no matter how I look at this, it just seems like "Monstrous Spider, but stronger in every way". Just look at the 4th level, the Leng Spider gets higher HD, more saves, massive web, minions, SLAs, broodmother, and the monstrous spider just gets broodmother.

Now the monstrous spider may be the one a bit on the weaker side, in particular after some chances I got of testing it.  I would be willing to go there and boost it a bit all around.

But I then don't want to return here and see that you started an arms race and futher boosted the leng spider. What do you think?
Just as a point: 100 square feet per HD is a 10' square per HD. 1000 sq ft per HD is 10x100 per.

Not actually that big, to me...

Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 02:22:34 PM »
Speaking of which, no matter how I look at this, it just seems like "Monstrous Spider, but stronger in every way". Just look at the 4th level, the Leng Spider gets higher HD, more saves, massive web, minions, SLAs, broodmother, and the monstrous spider just gets broodmother.

Now the monstrous spider may be the one a bit on the weaker side, in particular after some chances I got of testing it.  I would be willing to go there and boost it a bit all around.

But I then don't want to return here and see that you started an arms race and futher boosted the leng spider. What do you think?

You may have a point regarding the comparative power levels. In no way did I intend to specifically make the Leng Spider more powerful, but just to create an accurate representation. Should you decide to boost the Monstrous Spider, I won't touch the Leng Spider here.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 07:25:49 AM »
Something that I forgot to mention
-Poison is scaling waaayyy too fast, the Leng Spider is supposed to just deal 1d4 Con damage at level 14.
That is true, but the Pathfinder spider's poison is dealing that 1d4 damage every round for 6 rounds, unless you can succeed on two consecutive saves.

EDIT: At level 14, the Leng Spider's poison will inflict 3d6 damage, or an average of 11 con damage. The PF monster, on the other hand, will do an average of 15. The only advantage of the class's poison is that it works faster. If you'd like, I could set it up as a poison that functions in a similar way to the PF version of poison, rather than the 3.5 method? Perhaps a fortitude save against 1d4 con damage, and the save has to be repeated every round, for a number of rounds equal to your HD/2? Succeeding on two consecutive saves frees you from the poison effects. Unless you get bitten again.
Yes, delayed would be better. 11 Con damage right away is a lot more dangerous than 15 Con damage that'll only happen after battle's end.

Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 02:45:56 PM »
The poison has been changed accordingly.
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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 09:16:03 AM »
Rereading the class, the number of spider guards you get is beyond ridiculous. First double your HD in CR, then 4xHD spiders each of up to your own CR-2. Actually, that may mean the capstone actually gives you less spider guards (since 4x HD would mean your CR+4, whereas double HD means up 24 CR worth of spiders at 12th level) but both are way too much for completely free minions That means every adventure becomes "find a way of getting enemies in web palace, win, rinse and repeat", unless said enemies are plain immune to monstrous spiders.

Another thing is that the medium level SLAs are getting way too many uses, in particular since the original monster didn't get that many uses anyway. I believe a better plan would be to allow to spend multiple uses of a lesser one to activate an higher one, like 4 Charm Persons to replicate one charm monster at 8th level, and 8 charm persons to replicate Dominate Monster at 18 HD. Ditto for airwalk.

Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 04:03:22 PM »
Rereading the class, the number of spider guards you get is beyond ridiculous. First double your HD in CR, then 4xHD spiders each of up to your own CR-2. Actually, that may mean the capstone actually gives you less spider guards (since 4x HD would mean your CR+4, whereas double HD means up 24 CR worth of spiders at 12th level) but both are way too much for completely free minions That means every adventure becomes "find a way of getting enemies in web palace, win, rinse and repeat", unless said enemies are plain immune to monstrous spiders.
Getting an enemy in the web palace is much easier said than done. The place is super obvious, and the length of time it takes to create, and then attract spiders, and then replenish those spiders, is certainly not insignificant. And they aren't so much minions as janitors. They'll kill some things that wander in and not much else. I'd be surprised if the Web Palace got any use outside of a safe-ish place to rest and store items, especially since the spider guards have no loyalty to you specifically and no means of detecting enemies to hunt themselves outside the range of their tremorsense and pitiful spot checks.

I could bring the max spider guard CR down a bit, maybe to your HD-4. Or they could be set to HD, then double HD at the capstone.

Another thing is that the medium level SLAs are getting way too many uses, in particular since the original monster didn't get that many uses anyway. I believe a better plan would be to allow to spend multiple uses of a lesser one to activate an higher one, like 4 Charm Persons to replicate one charm monster at 8th level, and 8 charm persons to replicate Dominate Monster at 18 HD. Ditto for airwalk.

Good idea. Incorporated.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 11:15:19 AM »
Rereading the class, the number of spider guards you get is beyond ridiculous. First double your HD in CR, then 4xHD spiders each of up to your own CR-2. Actually, that may mean the capstone actually gives you less spider guards (since 4x HD would mean your CR+4, whereas double HD means up 24 CR worth of spiders at 12th level) but both are way too much for completely free minions That means every adventure becomes "find a way of getting enemies in web palace, win, rinse and repeat", unless said enemies are plain immune to monstrous spiders.
Getting an enemy in the web palace is much easier said than done. The place is super obvious, and the length of time it takes to create, and then attract spiders, and then replenish those spiders, is certainly not insignificant. And they aren't so much minions as janitors. They'll kill some things that wander in and not much else. I'd be surprised if the Web Palace got any use outside of a safe-ish place to rest and store items, especially since the spider guards have no loyalty to you specifically and no means of detecting enemies to hunt themselves outside the range of their tremorsense and pitiful spot checks.

I could bring the max spider guard CR down a bit, maybe to your HD-4. Or they could be set to HD, then double HD at the capstone.
I think you haven''t yet realized just how many spiders you're trying to put in so little space. Let's do some math. Level 13. Total CR of spiders: 26. Assuming each one is CR 11, that's a total of:

2 for CR 13
4 for CR 15
8 for CR 17
16 for CR 19
32 for CR 21
64 for CR 23
128 for CR 25
~192 spiders for CR 26

In an area of 1300 cubic feet. That gives you  a quadratic prism with base 10x10 feet and 13 feet high. You're completely right that it stands out, because what we have here is a free-for-all spider orgy with so many bodies compressed on so little space.

Forget "janitors", that's a freaking spider army right there. I'm not even asking how you're feeding them. Or where are they coming from, because either there only exists half a dozen leng spiders at a time tops, or the world's overrun with millions of giant monstrous spider that await to be called by the hundreds to orgies serve as glorified guards.

Honestly, the monster's fluff doesn't even mention anything about leng spiders having their personal armies of monstrous spiders. I would say it kinda detracts from the original ecology, which says "Artistic trap builders, Leng spiders construct lairs of dangerous and haunting beauty made of webs and other materials found nearby." But you don't really feel that with this class, since your leng spider's "palace" turns out to be actually a pile-up of dozens of monstrous spiders stacked one over another. The logistics are insane.

Even if you can't pull enemies easily into them, even if said enemies are immune to tremorsense, add a necromancer or something that can turn large strong bodies into resources to the equation, and you have a veritable spiderocaplyse here.

EDIT: Also, the above are all colossal spiders. Even a single one is larger than the web palace. And you're supposed to somehow fit almost two hundred? :psyduck
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 11:26:39 AM by oslecamo »

Offline Rakoa

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2014, 02:46:06 PM »
I don't understand where you are getting this numbers. If you are level 13, you can have a total number of Spider Guards equal to 26 CR, with no single guard having a CR greater than 11. Over an area of 1300 square feet, a spider that is about 60 feet long is pretty big, but by no means overflowing (I have no idea why you would want to build your Web Palace in a ridiculously shaped cone, nor does the class ability say anywhere that you can do so.) You could have two of those, at most. At level 14, there is literally no way to have anywhere close to 200 spiders. The absolute most you could get is just over 100 tiny-sized monstrous spiders with a CR of 1/4 each, and not enough hitpoints to stand in a stiff breeze. Dispersing 100 tiny-sized spiders over an area of 1300 square feet? Easily done.

In the most extreme case, you're dealing with two colossal spiders that take up some space (and a significant amount, yes, but not outside the bounds of the palace). The only issue I can see there is if the wording of the ability is confusing, because making a web palace in the shape of a giraffe is not the intent of the ability. The intent of the ability is that an area around the spider is covered in webs, that's it. 1300 feet of area, in this case.
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Offline ketaro

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Re: Leng Spider
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 08:42:26 PM »
I think you're missing what "square feet" means.

For example, your average sized one story 2 bedroom 2 full bath house is roughly 1300 square feet, coincidentally.
A 2 car garage is roughly 25 feet wide and a little less than that deep (wide, effectively).

A Colossal sized spider in D&D takes up a 30 foot by 30 foot (6x6 squares on the board) square and maybe 20-25 feet tall.
A single Colossal sized spider would thus be taking up an entire 2 car garage and still be squeezing.
A 1300 square foot one floor house would thus be roughly the same size as 4~ 2 car garages.
You could fit 3 Colossal spiders within your Spider Palace easily. Any more and be begin the vermin orgies Os mentioned.

I have no doubt, however, that when you say 1300 square feet, you MEAN that each SIDE is 1300 feet long. In which case the square footage would be upwards of....1.69 million square feet.

Mind you, I'm probably entirely off base I'm not completely sure I'm getting this, fairly damn exhausted this evening ~.~
In the case you knew everything already and I'm being stupid, well, it's hard to call that small an area a "palace" :p
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 08:44:44 PM by ketaro »