Fun Finds v6.0

[zook1shoe]

@snake... obviously that was not the point... see below
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@soro...

so a Were-Wolf Elf cannot gain the Were-Goat template since it is no longer a "Humanoid" but is too high up on the list as a "Humanoid (shapechanger)"... just great 

The type pyramid only prevents you from stepping down, from humanoid(shapechange) to monstrous humanoid, not stepping on the same block again (humanoid shapechanger to humanoid shapechanger).

The question of becoming a were-wolf were-goat is a question of the Lycanthropy Template stacking with it's self and how it would do so.

that's not was i was going towards... let me change it so u'll can understand what i was trying to say....

If at any time the base creature becomes ineligible for the next template, you must stop. A creature may become ineligible because of ability score changes or because its type changes. For instance, the lycanthrope template can only be added to humanoids. An elf with the tauric template becomes a monstrous humanoid and cannot then become a lycanthrope. Conversely, a lycanthrope elf is a humanoid (shapechanger) and cannot become a tauric creature. Each rules the other out.

see the blue part? this makes it so the 'Humanoid' and 'Humanoid (shapechanger)' types separate from each other, which is retarded, but that is what they wrote.

this would mean that templates must specify 'any' or 'humanoid (shapechanger)' creatures can be able to apply to such creatures. templates that specify 'humanoid' is not enough.

ex. Half-Illithid works but Half-Farspawn does not.

what they should have said is something like... "Conversely, a lycanthrope elf is a humanoid (shapechanger) and does not become a monstrous humanoid when it gains the tauric template."
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@litta... agreed
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enough of this thread getting derailed even more...

you can bascially be a were-sheep using the Brixashulty, since they are omnivores.

Brixashulties thrive on a diet of grass and leaves but can eat almost anything organic.

any other great 1st party ideas?

[SorO_Lost]

see the blue part? this makes it so the 'Humanoid' and 'Humanoid (shapechanger)' types separate from each other, which is retarded, but that is what they wrote.

That is what they wrote yes, you're point?

Really I don't know what to tell you other than get over it. Everyone finds some rule they hate, typically because it proves them wrong. But the pyramid isn't contradictory like you claimed and your opinion that it's retarded is extremely subjective. Personally I could call you retarded for not knowing Shapechanger was a Type (not subtype) in 3.0 and SS being designed as a bridge between the two handled it as if it were both. But that's my opinion now isn't it?

[zook1shoe]

i'm not saying i won't get over it.... i'm saying that they make no sense, and now that we noticed the Humanoid (shapechanger) 'type' is different than Humanoid ('everything else') 'type', there's a lot of stuff that no longer works like it should because The Almighty Savage Species has spoken.

and yes, Shapechanger used to be a type, do you remember than Beast was a type too?

enough of this crap.... lets just agree to disagree, since its getting nowhere.
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just found this nice little nugget in Races of the Dragon (pg 59)

   Rite of Draconic Affinity
   The Rite of Draconic Affinity changes your draconic heritage from one kind to another.
   Changing one’s draconic heritage is rarely a difficult decision. Most dragon-descended creatures never think of doing so, but a few decide their ethos doesn’t match their heritage. For instance, a half-dragon paladin may decide that his black dragon father’s blood is too much of an obstacle to overcome. On the other hand, a backbiting sorcerer might feel his gold dragon mother’s blood keeps him from being all he can be.
   When the rite begins, the participant spends 24 hours fasting and meditating, all the while anointing himself with the distilled essence of the dragon type he wishes to take on (see Cost).
   Prerequisites: Only half-dragons or other characters with a defined draconic heritage (such as those who select the Draconic Heritage feat, described on page 102) can undergo the Rite of Draconic Affinity. A dragon or half-dragon of the kind the recipient wishes to acquire must perform the ritual, and that creature must have 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana).
   During the last minute of the ritual, the participant stands and is subjected once to the breath weapon of the performer of the rite. After feeling the breath and taking damage from it, the participant sheds his old heritage for the chosen new one.
   Benefit: You change the kind of dragon in your heritage to a different kind of dragon. The new kind of dragon must have an alignment no more than one step away from yours. For example, a chaotic evil half-red dragon can choose from among black, brown, chaos, crystal, deep, fang, howling, pyroclastic, sand, shadow, song, Styx, Tarterian, topaz, tun mi ling, and white. A character with the Draconic Heritage feat replaces the original heritage with the new one.
   All manifestations of your draconic heritage change to match the new dragon kind, including physical appearance, breath weapon type, and all other benefits. For example, a half-dragon who removes red dragon and replaces it with blue dragon loses immunity to fire and gains immunity to electricity. His breath weapon changes from a cone of fire to a line of electricity.
   If your class skill list changes (usually due to the change in your Draconic Heritage feat), previously purchased skill ranks remain but future ranks are purchased using your new class skill list.
   If you no longer qualify for a feat due to the transformation, you lose the feat and immediately select a new feat for which you qualify in its place. If the lost feat is a prerequisite for another feat, you must also replace that feat.
   If you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class, gaining nothing in return. You retain Hit Dice, base attack bonus, and saving throw bonuses gained from advancing in the class.
   Time: The Rite of Draconic Affinity requires 24 hours of fasting and meditation. If the rite is interrupted, it is spoiled and must be started again.
   Cost: This rite requires special oils costing 5,000 gp.

great way for a lowly older Pseudodragon to transform into an Ancient Force Dragon at the price of 5k gp and a tiny 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana)

oh, playing a crappy Fang Dragon and want to jump HD and power? just a little cash and you're all set to become the Pyroclastic Dragon you always envied

[Amechra]

i'm not saying i won't get over it.... i'm saying that they make no sense, and now that we noticed the Humanoid (shapechanger) 'type' is different than Humanoid ('everything else') 'type', there's a lot of stuff that no longer works like it should because The Almighty Savage Species has spoken.

and yes, Shapechanger used to be a type, do you remember than Beast was a type too?

enough of this crap.... lets just agree to disagree, since its getting nowhere.
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just found this nice little nugget in Races of the Dragon (pg 59)

   Rite of Draconic Affinity
   The Rite of Draconic Affinity changes your draconic heritage from one kind to another.
   Changing one’s draconic heritage is rarely a difficult decision. Most dragon-descended creatures never think of doing so, but a few decide their ethos doesn’t match their heritage. For instance, a half-dragon paladin may decide that his black dragon father’s blood is too much of an obstacle to overcome. On the other hand, a backbiting sorcerer might feel his gold dragon mother’s blood keeps him from being all he can be.
   When the rite begins, the participant spends 24 hours fasting and meditating, all the while anointing himself with the distilled essence of the dragon type he wishes to take on (see Cost).
   Prerequisites: Only half-dragons or other characters with a defined draconic heritage (such as those who select the Draconic Heritage feat, described on page 102) can undergo the Rite of Draconic Affinity. A dragon or half-dragon of the kind the recipient wishes to acquire must perform the ritual, and that creature must have 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana).
   During the last minute of the ritual, the participant stands and is subjected once to the breath weapon of the performer of the rite. After feeling the breath and taking damage from it, the participant sheds his old heritage for the chosen new one.
   Benefit: You change the kind of dragon in your heritage to a different kind of dragon. The new kind of dragon must have an alignment no more than one step away from yours. For example, a chaotic evil half-red dragon can choose from among black, brown, chaos, crystal, deep, fang, howling, pyroclastic, sand, shadow, song, Styx, Tarterian, topaz, tun mi ling, and white. A character with the Draconic Heritage feat replaces the original heritage with the new one.
   All manifestations of your draconic heritage change to match the new dragon kind, including physical appearance, breath weapon type, and all other benefits. For example, a half-dragon who removes red dragon and replaces it with blue dragon loses immunity to fire and gains immunity to electricity. His breath weapon changes from a cone of fire to a line of electricity.
   If your class skill list changes (usually due to the change in your Draconic Heritage feat), previously purchased skill ranks remain but future ranks are purchased using your new class skill list.
   If you no longer qualify for a feat due to the transformation, you lose the feat and immediately select a new feat for which you qualify in its place. If the lost feat is a prerequisite for another feat, you must also replace that feat.
   If you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class, gaining nothing in return. You retain Hit Dice, base attack bonus, and saving throw bonuses gained from advancing in the class.
   Time: The Rite of Draconic Affinity requires 24 hours of fasting and meditation. If the rite is interrupted, it is spoiled and must be started again.
   Cost: This rite requires special oils costing 5,000 gp.

great way for a lowly older Pseudodragon to transform into an Ancient Force Dragon at the price of 5k gp and a tiny 10 ranks in Knowledge (arcana)

oh, playing a crappy Fang Dragon and want to jump HD and power? just a little cash and you're all set to become the Pyroclastic Dragon you always envied

That does not work the way you think it does. I don't have time to give the full explanation, but it doesn't work.

[zook1shoe]

it mentions plain dragons in the prereqs.... why not? is it more a HD to HD change?

[Nanshork]

it mentions plain dragons in the prereqs.... why not? is it more a HD to HD change?

It mentions that a plain dragon of the type you want to change your heritage to is required, not that they can undergo the ritual.

If I'm a half-green dragon and I want to become a half-blue dragon then I need a blue dragon to do the ritual.

[zook1shoe]

i see that.... but as a true dragon, you'd still have a defined draconic heritage. they give an example, but don't say it must be related to

looks like the limits are based on being Half-Dragon, Draconic, or having the Dragon Heritage feat (looking at the beginning of the chapter)


soooo.... nevermind, was too good to be true 

[SorO_Lost]

Ninja'ed by Zook.

[zook1shoe]

but.... on the otherhand.... a half-dragon/pseudodragon creature could benefit from the Rite. could he then choose either draconic heritage? he has 2 and the rite doesn't require it to be the heritage from those templates only (feat says otherwise).

i don't see a limit on which dragon race you could choose for your half-dragon base in relation to your original type.

RAW, you could be a half-black dragon/half-wyrmling black dragon by choose black as your template heritage.

[Chemus]

Following the 'humanoid (shapechanger) =/= humanoid' logic, here's a fun 'find' from Caelic's Boogeyman build: changeling warshaper can qualify for Soul Eater without any templates. (I keep forgetting to remind him that feral has -4 int)

[zook1shoe]

Precocious Apprentice got better.... Use it to cast a 2nd level ranger or paladin spell, or even a PrC spellcasting class like Telflammar Shadowlord or Trapsmith.

good way to get Improved Invisibility or Dimension Door at 1st level

[SorO_Lost]

It works on Shadowlord, Trapsmith, and even Sublime Chord through it never develops into a normal Slot. But not Ranger or Paladin, which would be great.

You need to be an arcane spellcaster and dipping Wizard to select the Feat is like a Half-Dragon Dragonfire Adapt & Metabreath Feats which has a FAQ entry saying no for precedence. And the silly-RAW point that Feat Requirements are tied to selection and use which screws the Monk over as if he isn't already the brunt of bad writing.

[zook1shoe]

Why can't u choose a ranger or paladin spell?

Precocious Apprentice only requires 1 arcane CL and access to that school of magic. It doesn't require it to be from the class you're in.

general wizard 1 could choose any school of magic's and any class's 2nd level spell, be it arcane or divine.

the FAQ only talks about it as a prereq

[SorO_Lost]

Precocious Apprentice only requires 1 arcane CL and access to that school of magic. It doesn't require it to be from the class you're in.

Well as my small text already discussed...

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

Which you can see the problem with how the Monk's Bonus Feats are written I'm sure...

the FAQ only talks about it as a prereq

Does it?

Can dragonfire adepts (DM 24) use the Breath Channeling feats (RDr 101) or the Metabreath feats (Dr 66)?
A dragonfire adept can’t use a Metabreath feat with his breath weapon because it does not have a recharge time. Having a recharge time is one of the prerequisites for Metabreath feats. They can use the Breath Channeling feats as long as they meet all other prerequisites for the feat.

[zook1shoe]

I meant the FAQ for PA not Dragonfire

ummm... A typical wizard has enough Int and a CL 1 to use the feat. Make a CL 8 check to cast the spell. No levels in Ranger? I guess that's a +0 CL bonus.

where does the feat say the spell must be from your prereq class (or any class you currently have?) the spell allows you to attempt to cast the spell, you don't need the appropriate class ability. Insufficient CL of 0 is fine w the spell.

its RAI as the spell is for the prereq class spell list, but RAW does not require that.

they probably meant to add what class restriction in the same sentence as the school of magic part

[altpersona]

while i would like to think that PA would give a ranger or pal early access to a second level spell, i dont think it does.

they dont have access to a school of magic till 4th level, barring some variant that starts their casting earlier.

[zook1shoe]

One of the dragons has a Dsukblade like spellcasting ranger... Starts at 1st level

[Maat Mons]

I think the spell slot granted by precocious apprentice would still have to be associated with some sort of spellcasting ability.  If it isn't, there wouldn't be enough rules to determine how it works. 

Let's suppose you decide to associate the spell slot with the class you already have (let's say wizard).  Your wizard spell slots can only be used to cast spells on the wizard spell list.  Nothing in precocious apprentice would change that.  If you picked a spell not on the wizard spell list as the only spell you're allowed to use that spell slot for, you just wouldn't be able to use that spell slot. 

Let's suppose you decide to associated the spell slot with a class you don't have (let's say trapsmith).  You need to make a caster level check to cast the spell, but you don't have a caster level for the spell.  Not having a caster level is not the same as having a caster level of 0.  Nonabilities have a special rule allowing you to make a check with a +0 modifier, but no such rule exists for a nonexistent caster level.  So you can't make the caster level check, and therefore can't use the spell slot. 

[Chemus]

I'm going to reiterate what I see as Zook's contention here:

PA says that you choose a spell of a school of magic that you have access to. It does not say that it must be an arcane spell, nor does it say that the spell must be on your class list. The class list bit might be intended to be understood, but it's not specified. Broad wording is broad. That's where I'm seeing 'ranger, paladin, trapsmith, shadowlord' etc.

It is kinda silly raw, but it's fairly clear; your DM might allow it as written.

[SorO_Lost]

No levels in Ranger? I guess that's a +0 CL bonus.

No, a 0 has numerical value.

Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level.

It's +N/A, which is illogical and the program has been forced to crash.

It is kinda silly raw, but it's fairly clear; your DM might allow it as written.

RAW on Extra Spell is ambiguous, it never says Arcane or Wizard either.

But do you know what the rules do say?

As long as you know the rules, the players need be concerned only with their characters and how they react to what happens to them in the game. Have players tell you what they want their characters to do, and translate that into game terms for them. Teach them how the rules work when they need to learn them, on a caseby- case basis.

What you want doesn't matter, you need rules or a DM for it to happen. By default, ambiguity is not an allowance in D&D, it's an inhibitor. As I am fond of saying, lack of rules is not rules saying you can.

And the reason I used Extra Spell as an example;

Can the warmage (CAr) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?
No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

Is because I can plug more precedence in. Feat usage is based on how you meet requirements. It's not independent.