Fun Finds v6.0

[SorO_Lost]

"turning is considered an attack for the purpose of adjudicating other effects, such as invisibility." ~RC's addition

[ketaro]

"turning is considered an attack for the purpose of adjudicating other effects, such as invisibility." ~RC's addition

Such as, but not limited to.

[Leviathan]

The key word is "other": turning is an attack for adjudicating other effects, but not for adjudicating itself.

[brujon]

So, basically Turning is an attack, so long as it matters if it is an attack for the purposes of anything else, but is not actually an attack in itself, so can't be affected as if it were an attack by other effects?

[Amechra]

Exactly.

[TuggyNE]

So, basically Turning is an attack, so long as it matters if it is an attack for the purposes of anything else, but is not actually an attack in itself, so can't be affected as if it were an attack by other effects?

I would put it a bit differently. It's an attack, but it's not one that has an attack roll, any more than sleep's rolled HD limit is an attack roll. (Both turning checks and turning damage are sufficiently similar, even though one looks more like an attack roll than the other.)

[snakeman830]

Another way to put it:

Turning is an attack, but because there is no attack roll, nothing that gives bonuses to such ever effects Turning.  Likewise, Turning deals no damage (some specific feats and abilities aside), so bonuses to damage rolls never apply.

[brujon]

Another way to put it:

Turning is an attack, but because there is no attack roll, nothing that gives bonuses to such ever effects Turning.  Likewise, Turning deals no damage (some specific feats and abilities aside), so bonuses to damage rolls never apply.

That might be a little more problematic, since if you do manage to tack on damage dice onto turning, then you might, say, make sneak attack turning...

[altpersona]

i believe in the Turning w/ Sneak Attack. the srd entry under rogue makes no mention of a required kind of attack, just that rogue attacks do extra damage.


(minor side bar:
i know its ridiculous, but reading over Sneak Attack on d20srd on the rogue page. it kinda dosnt say anything about an attack roll for SA. just "any time~denied dex ~or flanked")

[Jackinthegreen]

I'm pretty sure it's been agreed that Magic Missile can do SA damage too, yes?  Presumably the only thing required for SA's "attack" is it does some form of hit point damage.

[snakeman830]

Another way to put it:

Turning is an attack, but because there is no attack roll, nothing that gives bonuses to such ever effects Turning.  Likewise, Turning deals no damage (some specific feats and abilities aside), so bonuses to damage rolls never apply.

That might be a little more problematic, since if you do manage to tack on damage dice onto turning, then you might, say, make sneak attack turning...

Perhaps.  It's pretty clear the intent is not to have +attack or + damage apply to Turning checks, though.

I guess a better way to put it is "Turn Undead is flagged as an attack for if/then statements, not for numerical purposes."

[linklord231]

I'm pretty sure it's been agreed that Magic Missile can do SA damage too, yes?  Presumably the only thing required for SA's "attack" is it does some form of hit point damage.

I thought it was the opposite, in fact.  Only things that require an attack roll are eligible for Sneak Attack. 

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses.

[Keldar]

(click to show/hide)

The problem is that there are actually two or three overlapping things in D&D called attacks.  In the broad sense, any offensive measure is called an attack.  This generally only matters for things like Invisibility and other such corner cases.  This is what Turn Undead is.  In the more narrow case is what everyone else here is talking about, an attack.  Always like swinging a sword.  But only sometimes Fireball.  And even more narrowly attacks are something that always uses a weapon (manufactured or natural) and are based on BAB.  And since the writers work in a bubble they never quite realized they were using one word to refer to three related, but different concepts.

The language the rules use is really, really imprecise.  And is exacerbated by some of the local definitions being effectively lost in the first run PHB appendix.  It may be formal in tone, but in mode its far more conversational.  Compounding things further is the examples they print never, ever help clarify a given rule.  Instead dealing only in the most obvious application.
Trying to read them as if they were programming code or a professional legal contract caused more confusion than it helps.  And its a big part of why outsiders have a hate on for c.o..  D&D wasn't written by programmers, lawyers, mathematicians or game theorists, and not even linguists, it was written by writers.  And understanding that makes it easier to understand the rules.

Meh, too long.  Burying it in a spoiler.  Back to fun things rather than pedantry.

[Amechra]

Warforged make excellent Bardblades/Bardsaders; taking 3 levels in Reforged increases all Morale bonuses you benefit from by 1.

Throw on some levels of Battle Howler of Gruumsh, and you stack a +2 bonus on whatever you normally get from class levels.

[brujon]

Speaking of turning... Since it is specifically called out as an attack for effects such as invisibility... Does this mean that you can use Turn Undead as a cheap-o area of effect Purge Invisibility? Turning normally doesn't affect living creatures, but since it counts as an attack, and breaks invisibility, does this mean that an invisible living creature affected by a turning (which normally would suffer no ill-effects from the turning) will lose it's invisibility?

[snakeman830]

Speaking of turning... Since it is specifically called out as an attack for effects such as invisibility... Does this mean that you can use Turn Undead as a cheap-o area of effect Purge Invisibility? Turning normally doesn't affect living creatures, but since it counts as an attack, and breaks invisibility, does this mean that an invisible living creature affected by a turning (which normally would suffer no ill-effects from the turning) will lose it's invisibility?

No, because a creature affected by a Turning isn't performing an attack.  Getting attacked doesn't break invisibility, just performing one.

[Nytemare3701]

The ghaele monster class in savage species gets full cleric spell progression up through 14th level.  Up through 5th level, you don't even lose any hit dice.  So you spend the first 5 levels getting full casting, full base attack bonus, all good saves, and 8 + int skill points.  I think I need to play one of these guys in an E6 game.

What would you do with the last level, prestige paladin?

EDIT: Oh god no.
EDIT2: Making a character. Damn you!

[littha]

The ghaele monster class in savage species gets full cleric spell progression up through 14th level.  Up through 5th level, you don't even lose any hit dice.  So you spend the first 5 levels getting full casting, full base attack bonus, all good saves, and 8 + int skill points.  I think I need to play one of these guys in an E6 game.

What would you do with the last level, prestige paladin?

EDIT: Oh god no.
EDIT2: Making a character. Damn you!

Last level is going to have to be ghaele unfortunately because you cant multiclass out of a monster class

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

In 2005 WotC did actually have some people who knew about 3.5's subtitle of "caster edition." This article admits that casters start out powerful, ignore SR, focus in conjuration, and stay single classed. Wow. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050711a

[IlPazzo]

Claws of the Savage (BoVD) is usually a decent buff spell for your claws, but it doubles as a no-save-just-suck spell.
It has no save and no spell resistance, so you can cast it on an enemy to have him grow non-prehensile claws over their hands.