Author Topic: Fun Finds v6.0  (Read 291943 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #960 on: November 08, 2015, 11:26:04 AM »
Much like SorO, you're operating at a misconception at the fundamental level of the conversation.
Not really Loki, it seems everyone (and that includes you) have all agreed on DCs & cross-List abuse but are arguing about what the topic is or what title should be assigned.

Also, Sanctum Spell does not allow you to craft a 4th level Spell into a potion. There is so much wrong with that statement. Requirements are not effects, you cannot learn a Spell called "Sanctum Spell Stoneskin" or whatever because Spell+Feat!=NewSpell, and Potions are not Spells to begin with to even claim you can apply Metamagic Feats.
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.
It never claims it is or casts a Spell. You're thinking of Spell Completion/Trigger items, such as Scrolls or such. Except Sanctum Spell still doesn't work like how you're trying to use it. Like it uses the same exact Slot, so Sanctum Fireball on Mars is treated as a 2nd level Spell but it still uses a 3rd level Slot and requires 13 in your casting Ability Score. So obviously it's not a full on conversion that you think it is, you've arbitrary drawn a line in the sand where you think it's level is different and where it serves your purposes, but wording of the entry directs the line to be placed else where. *sigh*

Also the scrolling text is stupid. Congratulations on being the guy that brings the phase "annoying ad alerts" to a post.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 12:08:51 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Amechra

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #961 on: November 08, 2015, 01:34:48 PM »
Actually...

Quick Potion lets you make (temporary) potions of 4th level spells using Sanctum Spell. You don't even need to spend any XP!



But, to further specify my question:

Does it ever actually say what the minimum CL is for, say, a Wizard? I mean, they can't cast 4th level spells prior to 7th level normally, but they also happen to lack spell slots of that level before that point, so it's kinda unknown if the CL is the real restriction there...

(Let's put it this way. I'm 21 years old in the US, so I can buy booze. However, I don't actually get the chance to buy booze until I'm 27. It's not like pulling out a fake ID that said I was 25 would prevent me from buying booze in the future, right?)



@Lokiyn It only works if your DM lets you decompose magic items to calculate their Save DC. By RAW, you would just apply your ability modifier, so your example (the Shadow Evocation scroll) would have a DC of 12. If you want it metamagic'd... go find an artificer or take levels in Unbound Scroll or something.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 01:37:51 PM by Amechra »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #962 on: November 08, 2015, 05:50:38 PM »
But, to further specify my question:
Sometimes people forget that D&D is not a legal document but descriptive text. And because of that, they forget that when the SRD attempted to boiled things down to pure mechanics, they actually cut a sizable potion out of the game out.

For example, here part of the actual entry on caster level.
Quote
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).
The blue text that entirely enforces the concept that it's tied to the default Spell progression and how you cannot cast a 3rd level spell if your CL is below 5, thus answering your question, was removed in the SRD's version.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #963 on: November 08, 2015, 06:42:17 PM »
Thus answering my question.
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Offline Lokiyn

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #964 on: November 08, 2015, 10:46:27 PM »
Oh really? Let me call this bs out

Here is the original post
(click to show/hide)

And here is SorO_Lost's "well considered" response
(click to show/hide)

So in a discussion on the Enhance item Feat I brought up the idea of using feeblemind and a cooperative crafter to create an item where the save DC formula is explicitly modified [Keldar :rolleyes] by the feat and set to the lowest possible DC.

You then proceeded to invent whole cloth a whole list of nonsense about caster level that has as little to do with the conversation as claiming that a barbarian can rage is why wizards wear robes.

no one at any point was arguing about "titles" or "decomposing items" this was simply Enhance item + the core rules on magic item DC
(click to show/hide)

Any yes, yes i can make a 4th level spell into a potion with sanctum spell or with other methods, let me go step by step; i'll even use the extra legal way

  • Our wizard wants to create a potion of a fourth level spell he knows, unfortunately he cannot normally do so because of the limits of brew potion. So he has the option of modifying the spell OR modifying the feat; in this case we are going to work on the spell
    (click to show/hide)
  • So our wizard uses the metamagic feat sanctum spell on his spell (lets pick Animate Dead); Does this spell meet the requirements for brew potion? No of course not, "but wait" you say "i thought the whole point of this was to show that sanctum spell can make it qualify", indeed but not necessarily like that. See metamagic feats actually affect spell slots and spell level independently.
    (click to show/hide)
    Moreover other than the effect of changing the spell slot, metamagic feats affects come into play when the spell is cast, not when it is prepared (with the exception of the spell slot changes) So our Sanctum Spell (Animate Dead) fills a 4th level spell slot, and is still a fourth level spell; which although the rest of the requirements (Target / caster level) have been met for a third level potion, the spell level is still one too high
  • Now, our wizard casts his Sanctum Animate Dead, but not on himself, oh no. Our wizard casts the spell into a ring of spell storing, minor
    (click to show/hide)
    and Sanctum spell provides us with
    (click to show/hide)
  • Our wizard now has a spell explicitly modified by the act of casting and the sanctum metamagic feat to have an effective spell level of 3 for all effects. So we combine that with the complete rules for cooperative crafting
    (click to show/hide)
  • So let’s look at our spell, it is now treated in all ways as having a spell level of 3 (down from 4); it targets one or more creature (personal), and it has a caster level of at least 3 (the minimum for a 3rd level potion); this spell now qualifies for the brew potion feat, via the DMG it is explicitly allowed item sources for creation
    Quote
    although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed
    The end result is as follows
    Quote
    Potion of Animate Dead [3rd]
    This potion allows the caster to prepare up to three extra levels of spells or retain any spell of 3rd level or lower cast up to 1 round before the consumption of the potion. Market; 1050 gp.
    Cost to Create 525gp + 42xp

Now most of the time there is little point to this, except in the case that you need very specific spell, or you need a spell that has been modified by a specific class feature or set of feats, on the other hand if you table out the results you can see that there are a bit of savings to be had in item creation.

OrigSanctumCLMarketDIFMarketCLSL
0.5????1???37510.5
10.5137537575011
21322502250450032
325750037501125053
4371575052502100074
54927000

So a Spell stored 4th level sanctum spell stored then used to create 3rd level wands of the resulting spell would save you 5,250 gp per wand, which pays for itself on the 4th such wand created (spell storing 18k/5)

Basically sanctum spell + spell storing would net you anywhere from 11%-50% savings in item creation based explicitly on spell level with an average of 25% over the course of the level 1-9 spell levels.

So,

your point on potions is invalid,

your attempt to use caster level in lieu of DC is invalid (and still makes no sense whatsoever). As your claim that you couldn't use enhance item to lower the dc of magic items because spells have a minimum caster level has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

and the whole spell slots thing with item creation makes no sense whatsoever as spell slots is not part of the item creation (and given that you can prepare lower level spells in higher level spell slots negates quite a bit of that nonsense) As your claim that a 3rd level spell in a 4th level slot would be treated as a fourth level spell
Quote from: SorO_Lost
Sanctum Spell still doesn't work like how you're trying to use it. Like it uses the same exact Slot, so Sanctum Fireball on Mars is treated as a 2nd level Spell but it still uses a 3rd level Slot and requires 13 in your casting Ability Score.
(no, a Sanctum fireball would have a minimum ability score of 12 when cast as ability score minimums are based on spell level, not spell slots)

Quote from: Spell Slots PHB
Spell Slots: The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. For example, a 7th-level wizard has at least one 4th-level spell slot and two 3rd-level spell slots (see Table 3–18: The Wizard, page 55). However, the character could choose to prepare three 3rd-level spells instead, filling the 4th-level slot with a 3rdlevel spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Hence the whole "operating on a misconception on a fundamental level"
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 11:08:43 PM by Lokiyn »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #965 on: November 09, 2015, 12:33:36 PM »
Oh really? Let me call this bs out
Wow, I've never seen some a poorly constructed argument in my life.

You didn't even touch on the problems I called out with Sanctum Spell from before or even how Potions are not Spell, your version of support comes from a specific Ring and the not even really supportive Armor rules while talking about Potions and of all the possible Spell choices are there you just had to pick the one that implies a corpse can drink a Potion to animate it's self.  :twitch

And you're still going on about lower DCs. Why would you ever want a lower Save DC. Ever? As already brought up you can use alternative Spell Lists for earlier access to Spells just fine, but you'd still want the DC on those to be as high as possible. Outside of the few specific Special Abilities or Wondrous Items that have a higher DC'ed greater version, adjusting the DC of an item has no reflection on cost. There is literally nothing to gain with a lower DC in the slightest.

But you seem to be hung up on "when you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier." and it's role in multiple crafters instead of the both pronouns or even the rest of the text.
Quote from: Read the entire thing
Enhance Item [Item Creation]
You can increase the minimum DC for saving throws of magic items you create.
Prerequisite: Any other item creation feat,
Benefit: Choose any item creation feat you already know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier.
It doesn't say "when you help someone" now does it? So honestly, where in the rules does it ever imply that the 3rd Edition Feat Enhance Item allows you to invalidate the 3.5 Edition of the creation prerequisite rules just because more than one person helps out? And it even directly implies you can't use it to decrease a DC to begin with.

Your post... Is just a mess.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 12:36:24 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Amechra

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #966 on: November 09, 2015, 03:01:42 PM »
It seems like he wants the DC for Shadow Evocations and the like to be really low. Which is dumb, because you aren't casting them, therefore you can't apply your class features that make your spells more real.

Also, again: @LOKIYN: Applying Enhance Item in a way that would apply a negative ability modifier would just subtract that ability modifier from the DC. It would not modify the abstracted-away ability modifier already included in the DC, which is really just some reverse engineering. The numbers SorO gave are more useful for a homebrewer or a DM who wants to eyeball a DC for a custom magic item.

However, your Sanctum example would actually work (but is kinda dumb) - to reference the rest of the paragraph that SorO quoted for the CL restriction:

Quote
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

That seems to imply that you can make a potion of, say, Extended Enlarge Person. Since Sanctum Spell modifies the spell level, it would work. It's niche, though - just grab an Eternal Wand of Quick Potion and cast your Sanctum Spells into that.
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Offline Keldar

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #967 on: November 09, 2015, 05:32:25 PM »
none of which explains where the hell caster level came into a discussion of difficulty check.
@ Keldar, you really haven't read the posts above have you? Much like SorO, you're operating at a misconception at the fundamental level of the conversation.
There is a specific Feat Enhance Item that allows you to use your casting stat modifier, rather than the default formula for magic item creation.

The point of the whole conversation was to point out that you can use this to boost the static dc's of some weapon traits, as well as lower the DC for certain items, if you had a situation where you want it to be easier to resist an effect.

For example, I as a shadowcraft gnome build, want to make my shadow effects as low dc as possible, so normally if i wanted to make a scroll of shadow evocation the DC would be

10+2+5 = 17

Too high

So i use my enhance item feat and cooperative crafting to modify the int modifier from +2 to -5 using feeble mind or some other trick

10+(-5)+5 = 10

Better, however i want it still lower so i use a sanctum spell version of the spell instead of the normal effect

10+(-5)+4 = 9

lowering the Items difficulty check by 9 points and the caster level to 7 rather than 9


as you said "Really basic stuff."


anyway,

If you want to lower the caster level, one of the better ways is to use the sanctum spell metamagic feat, which lowers the spell level for the effect (although it doesn't change the slots you need to use). Which would allow you the ability to craft say a 4th level spell into a potion (as it is now considered 3rd level spell) which lowers the minimum caster level from 7 to 5 allowing you some decent savings.

none of which explains where the hell caster level came into a discussion of difficulty check.
Item won't function.  Set attribute is too low for the spell.  The item doesn't inherit any of your class abilities anyway, so the low DC would be counterproductive, you are not casting a spell.

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #968 on: November 09, 2015, 07:33:55 PM »
Item won't function.  Set attribute is too low for the spell.  The item doesn't inherit any of your class abilities anyway, so the low DC would be counterproductive, you are not casting a spell.

Replace Enhance Item with Truename then. It explicitly says the item treats you as the caster of the spell for all purposes.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #969 on: November 09, 2015, 07:37:14 PM »
That seems to imply that you can make a potion of, say, Extended Enlarge Person. Since Sanctum Spell modifies the spell level, it would work. It's niche, though - just grab an Eternal Wand of Quick Potion and cast your Sanctum Spells into that.
Except Sanctum doesn't work on Potion like thats, which is another little point he's hitting up and not understanding.

But I think you can grasp the problem with it. Sanctum Spell is not a +1 or -1 level Metamagic, it's +0. When you cast it, depending on the area, it modifies the effective level for calculations by +1 or -1.
Quote from: See what I mean in the text it's self through the power of colored text
A sanctum spell has an effective spell level one level higher than normal if cast in your sanctum (see Special, below)--but if not cast in the sanctum, it has an effective spell level one level lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (such as save DCs or the ability to penetrate a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats.
So for example CL5 Wand of Sanctum Fireball is still a 3rd level Spell. And if your first reaction is to say "but not when you cast it!", then you're hitting the nail on the head even as you fail to see why.

Lokiyn tried going the route that Potions are Spell-Storing items, IE you're not creating a Magic Item but casting a Spell into the item and later when used you cast the stored spell again. Like how Rings of Spell Storing specifically state you can cast the Spells stored in it. And while Potions, even Quick Potion, do imply they function like Storing because you have to expend the Spell for it (as with all other items), the actual rules entry of Potions prove that concept of thought is incorrect.
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.
While Potions are like Spells, and maybe there can be a misconception they are like Spell Storing Items, but they are not and all they really are is a magical liquid that invokes the effect of a Spell and that's what you're actually crafting. So is a Potion of Sanctum Spell (lol) Animate Dead 3rd, 4th, or 5th level? Well, until it's cast it's 4th level and 4th level Spells can not be made into a Potion.

Are you picking up what I'm laying down?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 09:58:45 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #970 on: November 10, 2015, 03:05:36 AM »
Quote from: Read the entire thing
Enhance Item [Item Creation]
You can increase the minimum DC for saving throws of magic items you create.
Prerequisite: Any other item creation feat,
Benefit: Choose any item creation feat you already know. When you create an item with that feat, adjust the DC for saving throws required by the magic item, if any, by your key ability modifier.
It doesn't say "when you help someone" now does it? So honestly, where in the rules does it ever imply that the 3rd Edition Feat Enhance Item allows you to invalidate the 3.5 Edition of the creation prerequisite rules just because more than one person helps out? And it even directly implies you can't use it to decrease a DC to begin with.


If Frank and John work together to create an item, then Frank is creating the item and John is also creating the item.  Frank could supply the item creation feat (modified by Enhance Item), and John could supply the spell.  Since Frank is supplying the Enhance Item feat, it's his key ability score that modifies the item's save DC, because that's what Enhance Item says to do, even though John might have a different save DC for his spells. 

It doesn't matter if the short description of the feat implies the DC can only go up, the "Benefit" section says it can go either way, and that's the rule that matters.  That's part of the Primary Source rule.

Why/Whether anyone would want to make a weaker version of an item is entirely irrelevant. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #971 on: November 10, 2015, 01:20:17 PM »
(click to show/hide)

The creatures Heavenly Host and Hellish Horde summon always obey you and can never attack you even if someone else were to dominate them. Use Quintessence to stockpile an army to make your next Enchanter/Vampire fight a walk in the park.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 01:21:57 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #972 on: November 10, 2015, 02:18:57 PM »
(click to show/hide)
When did Voldemort get here??
The creatures Heavenly Host and Hellish Horde summon always obey you and can never attack you even if someone else were to dominate them. Use Quintessence to stockpile an army to make your next Enchanter/Vampire fight a walk in the park.

Niiiiice. I know what I'm doing with my downtime now.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #973 on: November 10, 2015, 02:41:39 PM »
It doesn't matter if the short description of the feat implies the DC can only go up, the "Benefit" section says it can go either way, and that's the rule that matters.  That's part of the Primary Source rule.
Negative ghostrider, and I was wondering when you'd hop in since you love showing up on the tail end of a debate and immediately siding against me. Now for one thing there is no such thing as primary/secondary, the notation of such only appeared in the core errata and does not even appear in following Errata, in addition the RC supersedes just about everything so you trying to bring up archaic depreciated rules just makes you look like you can't keep up to a stagnant rule system that you've been posting in for over a decade. The order of rules application is general, specific, and exception.

I only side against you when you're wrong.  And usually, even when you are wrong, you at least put together a decent argument for why you might be right.  Lately though, you haven't even been trying.  Like just now when you tried to throw out the primary source rule because it isn't in the Rules Compendium.  Last I checked, the rules are additive - all the relevant rules apply, unless specifically changed by a later source.  Picking and choosing which rules to use just makes you look like you're deliberately obfuscating the truth because you know you're wrong.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Amechra

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #974 on: November 10, 2015, 03:06:43 PM »
Oy vey, people, can you take the bitch-fest to a new thread? Pretty please?



An oldie but goodie - Mounted Fury is hilarious, since your mount gets all of the benefits and drawbacks you get from Rage.

All of them.

A fun combo is Strength of the Charger + Mounted Fury = you essentially apply your Con bonus from Rage to your Fortitude saves twice.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #975 on: November 10, 2015, 04:32:42 PM »
Oy vey, people, can you take the bitch-fest to a new thread? Pretty please?
:lol

We're on page 49 and like 16 posts in. Technically we have to start a new thread anyway :p
(and I think I'm off to gather the links for it)

Annnd it's up. I may have started working on it last night knowing how close we were.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16695.new#new
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 04:37:46 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline Lokiyn

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #976 on: November 10, 2015, 09:34:55 PM »
Ok the let me make it even simpler

SorO_Lost makes the claim that you cannot lower the [Difficulty Class] of an item, because you cannot lower the [caster level] below that necessary to cast the [spell slot].

This argument makes no sense whatsoever as [caster level] is in no way involved in [difficulty checks], A CL20, SL 3 spell has a DC of 10+3+1=14, a CL5, SL 3 spell has a DC of 10+3+1=14. Which is infuriatingly Nonsensical, so keep dancing around that. Quite frankly it makes the same argument value as claiming 1$ bill is more valuable than a 1$ coin because green is a higher frequency color than yellow. So what I’m going on about is the blatantly deceptive nonsense

Now as for sanctum spell, it doesn’t matter if its potions or wands scrolls, that is [completely] irrelevant to this particular discussion; what is important is making sure that the spell to be used in the item creation process meets the guidelines for items creation.

Now

As stated before, Animate Dead is a 4th level spell, that takes up a 4th level slot (for wizards) again,
[Spell Slots] and [Spell Levels] are two separate concepts they are often linked but are two separate concepts.

Now there was a specific reason that I brought out the spell storing ring; Now in this case we are talking about metamagic, but it is comes up in other ways in other issues. But in this case we’ll look at metamagic only.

Now as you seem to completely miss the reason for the ring is to activate sanctum spell.

Now, First I will address your complete nonsense about the Enhance item and ability scores, to wit
Quote
Item won't function.  Set attribute is too low for the spell.  The item doesn't inherit any of your class abilities anyway, so the low DC would be counterproductive, you are not casting a spell.


So for this issue, you claim that sanctum spell would not lower the spell level because it is not being cast during the process, if that is true, then ability score is no longer relevant to the item creation if this is false then the argument that sanctum spell cannot lower the level of the spell on its own during item creation falls apart.

Note that use of a magic item such as a potion/scroll/wand does not fall under the same rules as spellcasters actually casting the spell,  it falls under “Using Magic items” which do not share the limitations on “casting”

And if you missed the point with the potions any harder you’d be playing another edition, At no point did I say that, and you continually and persistently miss the point.
magic item creation does not care about spell slots
magic item creation does care about spell Levels

Metamagic feats do not alter the spell level, but do alter the spell slots, this is explicitly called out in the metamagic section, but, when an item creator creates a scroll/potion/wand while embedding the metamagic feat to the item, it alters the spell level for the purposes of item creation.


So lets review the parameters of the problem

The goal is to lower the caster level of a higher level spell to within the range acceptable for the item creation feat (scrolls/potions/wand)
The claim that the effects of the metamagic don’t come into effect until after the spell is cast so sanctum spell doesn’t work (note that I specifically called this out above)
Quote from: Lokiyn
Moreover other than the effect of changing the spell slot, metamagic feats affects come into play when the spell is cast, not when it is prepared (with the exception of the spell slot changes) So our Sanctum Spell (Animate Dead) fills a 4th level spell slot, and is still a fourth level spell; which although the rest of the requirements (Target / caster level) have been met for a third level potion, the spell level is still one too high

So in order to make this work, one would need some way cast the spell (thus allowing the metamagic feat (and by extension any class abilities that require one to cast a spell)) then capture it in some manner.
Oh wait
Quote from: Lokiyn
Now, our wizard casts his Sanctum Animate Dead, but not on himself, oh no. Our wizard casts the spell into a ring of spell storing, minor
Quote from: Spell Storing Ring
A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing.

So lets look at the result
You now have a spell that has been cast triggering any modifiers from class or feats and can be recast from the ring.

So our spell (in this case animate dead) has been explicitly reduced by one level by the casting of the spell modified by the metamagic feat, since the metamagic feat doesn’t modify the precast spell. As such the spell (now at spell level 3) qualifies for storage and is placed in the ring.
The rest is mostly academic. Once the spell has been reduced to by a level you use the item as the spell source rather than yourself, As explicitly allowed under the DMG Magic Item creation rules.


SolO_Lost somehow seem to believe that modifying the difficulty check of the item somehow affects the caster level of the item
SolO_Lost is somehow failing to actually bother to understand what’s going on, so smaller words’


Wizard casts 4th level spell into spell storing ring
Metamagic Triggers reducing the spell level to 3
Crafter crafts item using reduced spell level spell from spell storing item


Linklord already pointed out the flaw in your argument against enhance item

(Oh, and I screwed up when posted, I had a second string that involved using rapid spell and sanctum spell to make some fast recovery potions with Mnemonic Enhancer, but it involved some other methods including arcane thesis. so i cut it out and forgot to replace that block with the other example.

So please

Explain why lowering the DC is impossible because caster level limits
Explain why explicitly lowering a spell by 1 level then using that to craft cheaper items is impossible

Although one of the more interesting finds was that sorcerers are more expensive item crafters than wizards due to page 89 of the phb where
Quote
The caster level must be high enough that the spellcaster creating the item can cast the spell at that level
Which since sorceres gain access to spells 1 level slower than wizards, means that their items would cost a small but measureably larger amount than wizards.

Look there are combos that i don't necessarily like, but i don't try and pretend the rules don't allow it because i don't like it. The rules are pretty black and white here.

If you cast a sanctum spell (outside), it drops the spell level by 1
You must cast the spell to place it in a spell storing ring.
You may use spells from a magic item to create an item.
You use the now reduced level spell to create the item.

*edit*
Really the only thing not explicitly allowed would be whether or not modifications to the spell from things other than metamagic feats are stored in the spell storing rings, although it is implicit it isn't specifically called out.

Also lets point out that the epic handbook was updated to 3.5
Also i'd need to dig out the actual DMG 3.0 since as you can't bitch about the srd being incomplete and the use it to justify a non existent point
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:43:11 PM by Lokiyn »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #977 on: November 11, 2015, 02:40:27 PM »
SorO_Lost makes the claim that you cannot lower the [Difficulty Class] of an item, because you cannot lower the [caster level] below that necessary to cast the [spell slot].
Ahh, so you haven't been reading my posts at all before responding, well that explains a lot.

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Fun Finds v6.0
« Reply #978 on: November 12, 2015, 03:37:52 PM »
Let's post in the new thread, since it's already up
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