Sorcerers get SHAFTED!

[SneeR]

I ported this over from BG because I still think it's relevant, and my feelings have not changed:

There is a lot of love for the sorcerer. For example, Solo's stupendous guide.

The sorcerer has a lot of great pros: access to a changing spell-list as they level, some cool alternate class features, and, of course, spontaneous casting. A sorcerer with a well-chosen spell list can be ready for almost any situation. They never need to prepare for the day ahead. They just need to check every spell and be sure that they have no overlapping effects or targets.

I just recently tried making a sorcerer, however, and I realized something crazy: sorcerer's get straight-up shafted.

In terms of wizards, that is.

Now, wizards and sorcerers were originally designed in 3.5 to be "balanced," whatever that means, at least in relation to one another. It is clear, though, that Wizards considered spontaneous casting to be fantastically powerful. The two are "indentical" in class features:
1)familiar
2)poor BAB/good Will/2+INT skill points/level
3)SAD spellcasting
but then the wizard gets 5 bonus feats and gets all spell levels one level earlier.

It's a trade-off, right? Better spellcasting for a few feats?
Well...

It is debated about whether or not being able to cast 20 spells spontaenously beats out being able to cast all of them a few less times per day. Most would argue that planning your day with the perfect spells is superior to spamming more generic spells.

So sorcerers already get gyped by the fact that they are behind a spell-level and get more limited options AND get nothing from leveling up pure except caster level and familiar powers.

So the debate between sorcerer and wizard is much like the one between the pros and cons of a paladin vs monk. Right?

Well, here is why I firmly believe that sorcerer's get shafted in comparison to wizards.

1)the sorcerer's main stat is CHA.
The obvious synergy of playing the face of the party is unattainable. The only sorcerer social class skill is bluff. You want lying? You got it! If they have enough skills points to spend after Spellcraft, Concentration, and Knowledge (arcana). You want to argue that the sorcerer gives himself class skills through magic? Well, why waste yoour precious spells known on that if you are shooting for optimization?

2) Only 2+INT mod skill points/level.
If you want your sorcerer to play anything other than a walking collection of wands, i.e. contribute something to the party outside of combat, they need to put some skill points in some useful skills, whther that be Bluff, Spellcraft, or Knowledge (arcana). Only problem is that you are lucky if you get 4 skill points per level, becuase that means that you have at least four stats that are 14 or higher: CHA, then CON, then DEX, then INT. You rolled well, friend.
Mechanically, they get no room for roleplaying. There is no surplus for any Craft skills unless that is your focus, and Profession is right out.
Therefore...

3) They are pigeon-holed.
The sorcerer can only specialize in one thing: magic. They can't be the party face half the time, they can't even be a wealth of information like the wizard even if they do have extra skill points to burn because they only get one Knowledge skill. Their spells known are so limited that you basically need to find one or two deadly, all-encompassing combos and spam them incessantly. That is your option as a sorcerer.

See, wizards' main stat is INT, so they get a metric fuckton of skill points every level by virtue of permanently shooting their INT through the roof whenever they can. They also get all Knowledge skills into which they can dump these skill points.

4)To get any options, you need to prestige.
Going straight sorcerer is worse than going straight cleric. At least cleric gives some BAB. All sorcerer gets is spells and familiar. The levels are barren!

5)There are no PrCs for the sorcerer.
The sorcerer must adhere even tighter to that great commandment: thou shalt not lose caster levels. Why are there so many caster PrCs that lose a caster level at Lvl 1!? Most of those that give full casting have weird requirements (that wizards often easily meet) that leave you feat starved for real feats like metamagic feats, then give you abilities that are useless, obviously designed for wizards!

The only two PrCs that a sorcerer can easily qualify for  are the Fatespinner (Commplete Arcane) and the Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror). Both lose a caster level at the last level, but you can skip that.

You know what, though? Fiend-Blooded is clearly a sorcerer class--you need to be able to cast spontaneously! BUT YOU NEED FREAKING KNOWLEDGE (THE PLANES)! THAT IS NOT A SORCERER CLASS SKILL.
So the one class designed for sorcerers that they qualify for in every way but one at fifth level requires a cross-class skill to get into, therefore taking skill trickery or five more levels to qualify for.

This is how I know that sorcerers get shafted. Not in comparison to most classes, but in comparison to wizards, their Core brothers.

What I want to know is this: Is it all worth it? What is the joy in playing a sorcerer when you are so pigeon-holed out of role-playing and possibly feat-starved? Is the sorcerer ever better than the wizard?

[SneeR]

Reserved for reply quotes, which I will do soonish.

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Still better than Wilders, my friend. Still better than Wilders...

Still better than Wilders, my friend. Still better than Wilders...

Comparative shafting has all the classes feeling good because no one got shafted as badly as the Tier 6's.

Sorcerors did get shafted. And we know why. Spontaneous casting was supposed to be all-OMGQTFBBQ-powerful.

Well, theres always PF's Human Favored Sorc.
Hello +1 spell known per sorc level(max 1 lower than your highest). Totally makes it worth it.

Sorcerers of the Coast wasn't very popular with the survey focus group....

Still better than Wilders, my friend. Still better than Wilders...

And every non-caster out there.
And psions and druids if you go for calling/polymorph/mindraping cheese, wich the tree-hugger hipsie can't even dream off.

Really, they're like the fourth strongest class on the game if you're optimizing well (with only wizards, clerics and artificers ahead).

So what if you don't get bonus feats? So what if you can't get every metamagic feat out there? So what if you can't know every spell printed ever? You're still a damn arcane fullcaster wich can acess the strongest tricks in the game! You just can't acess all the strongest tricks on the game! That's not being shafted, it's just being less broken than clerics/wizards/artificers.

Also, lovely sorceror-only spells like wings of cover. Immediate-action block any attack? Yes please.

I think the issue is that it's a powerful class optimizationally speaking, but it's VERY easy to screw up(pick the wrong spells, suck for a level, maybe more), and lends little to secondary fluff besides "I shit spells".

Conceptually speaking I rather like fusing some aspects of the Warlock and Sorceror to work the font of power angle.

I think the issue is that it's a powerful class optimizationally speaking, but it's VERY easy to screw up(pick the wrong spells, suck for a level, maybe more), and lends little to secondary fluff besides "I shit spells".

Exactly.
You can't have a scholarly sorcerer, a sweet-talking sorcerer, or really anything else that you might want to roleplay. I mean, you could RP any concept you want, but it isn't backed up mechanically because they have so few skill points!

See, wizards' main stat is INT, so they get a metric fuckton of skill points every level by virtue of permanently shooting their INT through the roof whenever they can.

I think the issue is that it's a powerful class optimizationally speaking, but it's VERY easy to screw up(pick the wrong spells, suck for a level, maybe more),

That applies to the wizard as well, not to mention you have to worry every day about your spell selection. The sorceror only has to worry when he levels up.

and lends little to secondary fluff besides "I shit spells".

It's a sorceror! What did you expect? For once, Wotc got it right! It's a class that's suposed to cast powerfull spells that casts powerfull spells!

Exactly.
You can't have a scholarly sorcerer, a sweet-talking sorcerer, or really anything else that you might want to roleplay. I mean, you could RP any concept you want, but it isn't backed up mechanically because they have so few skill points!

See, wizards' main stat is INT, so they get a metric fuckton of skill points every level by nature of permanently shooting their INT through the roof whenever they can.

With all due respect... A "scholarly sorcerer" is a wizard no matter how you put it. Sweet-talking sorcerers already work perfectly. Pump bluff. Pump charisma. There.

And Cha isn't as useless as you make it. Lots of enchantment and some calling magic benefits from it. Certain feats (cough Leadership cough) greatly benefit from it.

If you want to be so picky with minor details as skills (wich simply pale compare to raw arcane power), well, the sorcerer gets more weapon proficiencies. Take that wizard!

Heck, there's a feat that totally allows you to change your main casting stat in case you missed it.

Less the skill points in my opinion(though the way class skills work do prevent them from taking advantage of their high charisma, skill wise), but few of the bloodline stuff that have come up are satisfactory or actually manage to line up with the magic, for the matter(goddamn the ones that just give the sorc non-touch melee attacks are just asking for trouble).

Also, if the wizard's latest spells turn out to be useless, he can march out and learn new ones mid-level, whether by buying them, stealing them, murdering someone for them, going to the local library for them, etcetera. Even if the DM makes it insanely difficult to get scrolls of spells, if the sorcerer just got access to third level spells and the one he picked sucks, he has to wait a level to get a single new useful spell, whereas the wizard got access to that many a level before, two more when the sorcerer learned his first, and has access to a higher spell level when the sorcerer gets his second spell.

The level gap doesn't even make sense fluff-wise. If a sorcerer is supposed to be cackling madly and enjoying his unimaginable power and unlimited rice pudding, why do wizards get access to spells faster?

Really, they're like the fourth strongest class on the game if you're optimizing well (with only wizards, clerics and artificers ahead).

This statement makes no sense, since it lists two classes weaker than Druids, but does not list Druids.

Also, if the wizard's latest spells turn out to be useless, he can march out and learn new ones mid-level, whether by buying them, stealing them, murdering someone for them, going to the local library for them, etcetera. Even if the DM makes it insanely difficult to get scrolls of spells, if the sorcerer just got access to third level spells and the one he picked sucks, he has to wait a level to get a single new useful spell, whereas the wizard got access to that many a level before, two more when the sorcerer learned his first, and has access to a higher spell level when the sorcerer gets his second spell.

The level gap doesn't even make sense fluff-wise. If a sorcerer is supposed to be cackling madly and enjoying his unimaginable power and unlimited rice pudding, why do wizards get access to spells faster?

Again, that's a problem with wizards being overpowered/broken, not sorcerers being weak. By all means, wizards should get their progression slowed.

Really, they're like the fourth strongest class on the game if you're optimizing well (with only wizards, clerics and artificers ahead).

This statement makes no sense, since it lists two classes weaker than Druids, but does not list Druids.

In a low optimization game, sure. Druids have animal companions and wildshape and all that nice crap.

But then the sorceror mindrapes his personal army and teleports to wherever he pleases, and wins ecounters as an immediate action with celerity, and then picks Polyrmoph any Object and then is geting Solars as his personal slaves with Gate. You get the idea. The raw potential of arcane magic easily overpowers even animal companion and wildshape.

Clerics get gate and can cheat their way into spells with domains. Artificers can get every spell out there and earlier than others too.

Again, that's a problem with wizards being overpowered/broken, not sorcerers being weak. By all means, wizards should get their progression slowed.

Well, yeah, but that's the point of the topic: Sorcerers get shafted in comparison to wizards.

In a low optimization game, sure. Druids have animal companions and wildshape and all that nice crap.

But then the sorceror mindrapes his personal army and teleports to wherever he pleases, and wins ecounters as an immediate action with celerity, and then picks Polyrmoph any Object and then is geting Solars as his personal slaves with Gate. You get the idea. The raw potential of arcane magic easily overpowers even animal companion and wildshape.

A) You'll note I didn't actuall contest Sorcerer vs Druid, merely that if X is greater than Y, and Y is greater than Z, then Z cannot be greater than X. If Arcane casting is so great, then that should put it over Clerics too.

B) Druids also get infinite armies, Polymorph cheese, Solar Slaves. Celerity is not actually very good, people just overblow that. 66% of that is level 18 for Sorcerers, whereas Druids just get the same stuff at level 17. The other 33% of that is level 16 for Sorcerers. So they get A worse Polymorph effect one level earlier, and everything else a level later.

Clerics get gate and can cheat their way into spells with domains. Artificers can get every spell out there and earlier than others too.

First of all, sorry, thought you type Archivist. Artificers have their own problems, but being weak isn't one of them.

Two, Levels  1-16 also exist. And Druids can also Get Gate, only way better than casting the spell, though to be fair, so can everyone else.

Other classes shafted in comparison to Wizards include Fighters, Monks, Rogues, Beguilers, Bards, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Marshals, Dread Necromancers, Warmages, Healers, Favored Souls, Crusaders, Warblades, Swordsages, Factotums, Soulknives, Ninjas, Samurai, Knights, Warlocks, Binders, and the rest of about 90% of every class ever released.

Meanwhile, since Sorcerers are one of the most powerful classes out there, they really shouldn't be whining.  If it makes you feel better, compare a Sorcerer to a Healer.  You'll feel awesome!

JaronK

Still better than Wilders, my friend. Still better than Wilders...

Comparative shafting has all the classes feeling good because no one got shafted as badly as the Tier 6's.

Sorcerors did get shafted. And we know why. Spontaneous casting was supposed to be all-OMGQTFBBQ-powerful.

That's why they proceeded to give wizards spontaneous divination and uncanny forethought, right? 

Still better than Wilders, my friend. Still better than Wilders...

Comparative shafting has all the classes feeling good because no one got shafted as badly as the Tier 6's.

Sorcerors did get shafted. And we know why. Spontaneous casting was supposed to be all-OMGQTFBBQ-powerful.

That's why they proceeded to give wizards spontaneous divination and uncanny forethought, right? 

Because some dev was, 'oh my poor bookbound wizard, he'll (and yes, the dev was a he, we know this) never know the wonder of spoantaneous casting! Its so sad, lets ungimp him by giving him a small taste of the glory'. I suspect most of the WotC staff smoke crack before writing any crunch.

I've seen this brought up many places, and it's usually summed up as "Skip hates sorcerers".

Do you think they'd be more fun to play if they had one extra spell per spell level known and similar bonus feats to the wizard?  4 skill points would also be nice, and being able to swap a spell every level.  Also, I'd like to rewrite their spell tables to give them new spells every odd level instead of on even levels.

Theres a 'safe' middle ground for extra spell knowledge, grant them automatic extra spells that are nice but not overwhelmingly awesome(generally utility stuff that a sorc normally would not be able to spare) based on some theme set at character creation.

Theres a 'safe' middle ground for extra spell knowledge, grant them automatic extra spells that are nice but not overwhelmingly awesome(generally utility stuff that a sorc normally would not be able to spare) based on some theme set at character creation.

Like they did in Pathfinder?

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Close, but not quite, since they get very few(excepting the goddamned human favored class benefit), but the idea is similar yeah. Give more.

Extra Spell feat as a bonus on a couple of levels?

Extra Spell feat as a bonus on a couple of levels?

You could also give them access to the spells from a domain.

Domains could work.

It also helps them with some basic fluff beyond spell-shitting. Draw a link between the source of your magical powers and the domain and you're good to go.

Or those bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium?

Elaborate for those of us without Dragons?

Maybe make them similar to the dread necro and beguiler?

Elaborate for those of us without Dragons?

Add a themed list of nine spells to a spell list, forbids a set of thematically opposed spells.  Like the bloodline that adds stuff like animate dead to your list forbids you from ever adding conjuration(healing) spells to that list (and forces you to repick conjuration(healing)s you might have.)

Or the fire bloodline forbids you from adding [water] spells to your list.

Ah, that sounds cool and appropriate.

one word, if your DM allows them, knowstones.

Semi-precious stone with an ancient arcane symbol. Often part of a piece of jewelry.
Spontaneous Arcane Caster only: If the inscribed Xth level spell is on the wearer’s spell list, the wearer “knows” the spell for purposes of casting it. Must be worn for 24hrs.

However these cost (spell level)^2 * 1000 gp, 500gp for cantrips.

Knowstones are handy, but the domain/bloodline spell list idea helps a lot with giving them a more rounded spell list, rather than the highly combat oriented one you normally see sorcs with.

I run Sorcerers this way:

Be a Psion.  Really.

Not satisfied?  Very well.

Get 4+INT mod skill points per level.  Get a d6 HD.  Get all social skills as class.  Get your spell levels on a Wizard's progression.  Get +1 spell known of your highest spell level per character level.  Each day, be able to swap a single spell you know for another of equal level (not higher or lower level).

I run Sorcerers this way:

Be a Psion.  Really.

Not satisfied?  Very well.

Get 4+INT mod skill points per level.  Get a d6 HD.  Get all social skills as class.  Get your spell levels on a Wizard's progression.  Get +1 spell known of your highest spell level per character level.  Each day, be able to swap a single spell you know for another of equal level (not higher or lower level).

Kinda what I meant. I give them simple weapns and light armor No Spell chance failure as well. They should be really perversely independant and varied if you build it based on the "My bloodline has various magical creatures in it"
It' be more visually appealing and thurough to do a chart and a class but somehting along these lines is what I meant "do it like a dread necro/beguiler" I might get around to taking a shot at it... but...
quick question... do we really want all the classes to approach wizard level power? Or do people just want some thing closer to balanced all around? I have a few more abilites that could get added in.

Something more rounded is my preference. They have power alright, but power of the asskicking variety isn't what makes them more wholesome as a character.

Considering they're already Tier 2, why bother with more power? Taking a bit of power away but making their theme stronger would be much more interesting.

I've always made these changes to Sorceror: 1d6 HP, 4 skillpoints, domain and domain spells mechanic as Cleric, and opposed spells (these 2 tie into to the sorcerors background), diplomacy modifiers to magical creatures. familiar replaced by something thematically appropriate. Nothing major, but they stand out more as more than a weaker wizard.

You know what really kicks the sorcerer in the pants?

Wizards get all sorts of ways (even in core) to cast spontaneously.

Don't believe me? They get item creation feats as bonus feats.

This grants them access to things like pearls of power, scrolls, and rods of absorption. They cast spells without expending spell slots, so they're like spontaneous sorcerers that burn money (which they can get tons of by selling spellcasting services, flesh to salted cows, and so on) instead of spell slots and can change their entire list of spells known every single day.

This grants them access to things like pearls of power, scrolls, and rods of absorption. They cast spells without expending spell slots, so they're like spontaneous sorcerers that burn money (which they can get tons of by selling spellcasting services, flesh to salted cows, and so on) instead of spell slots and can change their entire list of spells known every single day.

This goes both ways.

The sorceror can also get his own endless GP tricks and then get lots of diferent items for diferent situations. They're like prepared wizards that burn money instead of writing in books.

And you just admited there's a magic mart out there providing magic services for money.

This grants them access to things like pearls of power, scrolls, and rods of absorption. They cast spells without expending spell slots, so they're like spontaneous sorcerers that burn money (which they can get tons of by selling spellcasting services, flesh to salted cows, and so on) instead of spell slots and can change their entire list of spells known every single day.

This goes both ways.

The sorceror can also get his own endless GP tricks and then get lots of diferent items for diferent situations. They're like prepared wizards that burn money instead of writing in books.

And you just admited there's a magic mart out there providing magic services for money.

Umm, no. Infinite GP to buy items costs spells known which is a limited resource. Or you can buy items which can make an infinite GP slowly, if you sacrifice your GP  :rollseyes. Closed loop. And making your own is superior to purchasing, if Experience is A River is in play.

Reiterating, you can make items that give you options, buts it harder for you to get the needed feats and spells known. Buying them works, but you're still shafted by Wizards being better at it.

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[Solo]

One of the more interesting tricks is that, at level 14, you can take Limited Wish, use it to emulate Psychic Reformation, and swap out your entire spell list for a small amount of XP.

[SneeR]

One of the more interesting tricks is that, at level 14, you can take Limited Wish, use it to emulate Psychic Reformation, and swap out your entire spell list for a small amount of XP.

While that is a fascinating piece of trivia, and fixes  lot of what's mechanically wrong with the class, it does not address the primary issue:
Your class focus is to be a walking pile of wands, and changing out those wands does not change that fact.

[Solo]

I also find that you can break the action economy very well as a sorcerer - possibly better than a wizard can via Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, and a few other things.

[betrayor]

One of the more interesting tricks is that, at level 14, you can take Limited Wish, use it to emulate Psychic Reformation, and swap out your entire spell list for a small amount of XP.

Are you sure that this  works?In limited wish's description emulating a power isn't one of the options...
Or are you suggesting that it fall with the option of other effects in line with the listed effects?

[Unbeliever]

Yes, they do.  And, even more once you take into account all the ways a Wizard can essentially fake being a Sorcerer:  Uncanny Forethought, Runestaffs, and Hathran + Acorn of Far Travel. 

Pathfinder was a decent step in the right direction, though I find the bloodlines thing a bit droll overall.  I also just shift their casting up 1 level, so they lag behind less. 

I agree with the OP on the skills, though, which I hadn't thought about much.  What about using some of the Beguiler's chasis?

[Sinfire Titan]

One of the more interesting tricks is that, at level 14, you can take Limited Wish, use it to emulate Psychic Reformation, and swap out your entire spell list for a small amount of XP.

Are you sure that this  works?In limited wish's description emulating a power isn't one of the options...
Or are you suggesting that it fall with the option of other effects in line with the listed effects?

It actually does. See Psionic/Magic Transparency, specifically the part where it says spells affect powers and vice versa. Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle can duplicate Psionic powers without question, and without the DM dicking with the spell.

[betrayor]

One of the more interesting tricks is that, at level 14, you can take Limited Wish, use it to emulate Psychic Reformation, and swap out your entire spell list for a small amount of XP.

Are you sure that this  works?In limited wish's description emulating a power isn't one of the options...
Or are you suggesting that it fall with the option of other effects in line with the listed effects?

It actually does. See Psionic/Magic Transparency, specifically the part where it says spells affect powers and vice versa. Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle can duplicate Psionic powers without question, and without the DM dicking with the spell.

Good to know...
So for example a wizard casting wish should be able to duplicate 7 level powers or less?
So could he for example duplicate fission?

[oslecamo]

Well, the sorceror-only spells from the dragon magazines are quite nice (wings of cover alone is awesome).

But really, what doesn't get shafted compared to a wizard/cleric/artificer? You're complaining that the sorceror can't easily do everything? Really? They'll get 38 spells known (not counting cantrips) by level 20, minimum, from the best list in the game.

They already have more than enough power to crush any ecounter that isn't a wizard/cleric/artificer. Heck, actually in a fight between a pure druid and a pure sorceror, my money's would be on the sorceror thanks to easier ways to churn out more lethal spells combined with superior mobility. Even if you argue with that, a decently built sorceror is more than able to solo ecounters of its own CR no problem while having utility for most situations if you pick the right spells. You just won't have multiple solutions to every problem, but you'll still have at least one solution for almost any problem.

So no, sorcerors don't get shafted in any way, it's wizards that are insanely broken by virtually knowing their spell list (the biggest spell list in the game BTW) at once.

[SneeR]

But really, what doesn't get shafted compared to a wizard/cleric/artificer? You're complaining that the sorceror can't easily do everything? Really? They'll get 38 spells known (not counting cantrips) by level 20, minimum, from the best list in the game.

They already have more than enough power to crush any ecounter that isn't a wizard/cleric/artificer. .

So no, sorcerors don't get shafted in any way, it's wizards that are insanely broken by virtually knowing their spell list (the biggest spell list in the game BTW) at once.

I am not debating that sorcerers are, in fact, Tier 2. I don't deny the sorcerer's power.

I am claiming that sorcerers get shafted as far as everything but power. They have no role other than to shoot off spells. They cannot accomplish what the PHB says they should: they don't have enough skill points to be useful outside of combat, and therefore cannot be the face of the party without wasting spell slots on charms; they can't easily get into flavorful PrCs like wizards can; and they really have no mechanically-supported flavor like wizards do.

Essentially, wizards are better-designed, if only because wizards can at least do what they are boasted to be able to. A sorcerer has to resort to psionics if he ever wants to do something besides his tried-and-true spam techniques.

[weenog]

So you're complaining that you don't understand the difference between "encounter" and "combat", that you don't like picking versatile utility spells that work for multiple purposes.... and that the sorcerer can't easily do everything.

[SneeR]

Weenog I feel as though you misunderstood my stance... enitirely

So you're complaining that you don't understand the difference between "encounter" and "combat"

I don't know how I gave you that impression. What led you to believe such a thing?

you don't like picking versatile utility spells that work for multiple purposes....

I said the exact opposite in the OP. My exact words were, "A sorcerer with a well-chosen spell list can be ready for almost any situation. They never need to prepare for the day ahead. They just need to check every spell and be sure that they have no overlapping effects or targets."

and that the sorcerer can't easily do everything.

I have no problem with this. My problem is not that sorcerers are not Tier 1; my problem is that they meet the requirements of Tier 2 and go not a step farther mechanically to meet their fluff. They are a bundle of wands with no other class features, splatbook support that does nothing to branch out, and few ACFs that could add mechanical flavor.

As Veekie so eloquently stated in the BG replies, all they do is "shit spells."

They have too few skill points to be mechanically distinguished in any way but spells; they have few good PrCs that are easy to qualitfy for which could inject them with flavor; and they cannot support the characterization given them by the PHB flavor text.

When a class could be conceivably replaced by a rogue cohort with quick draw and a multitude of wands, that class is not well-designed.

[weenog]

You give them no credit for being useful outside of combat, you gripe about spell spam, and you're jealous of wizards having enough skill points, bonus feats and spell knowledge going spare that they can throw resources away freely to enter PrCs which you allegedly want for "flavor" purposes.

Face it, spells are how the sorcerer gets things done.  If you don't want to be casting spells all day, don't play a primary spellcaster.  A sorcerer doesn't rely so much on skill points to get things done outside of combat.  You don't balance, climb, or jump, you just cast fly or overland flight and obviate the need for any of those skill checks.  You don't open locks or disable devices, you just shatter or disintegrate them.  You want to do the party face thing, get more creative with your Bluff skill, and if you're still not good enough, back it up with suggestion, or even dominate, depending on how you do battlefield control.

You absolutely don't need a PrC to inject flavor, that one isn't even worth tackling.

You just sound like you're upset that you're badly losing a dick-measuring contest, after deliberately going up against the biggest dick in the game.

[SneeR]

You have so eloquently made my point.

1)Wizards are everything that a sorcerer is and more.
-wizards have plenty of skill points, class skills, bonus feats, and PrC's
-wizards can even get effectively spontaneous casting with custom runestaffs, uncanny forethought, etc.
2) So why would anyone want to play a sorcerer when you could be a wizard?

Reread the last line of the OP; you seem to have missed the point of this thread.
Why play a sorcerer? When is it ever preferable to be mechanically pigeonholed?
A wizard can pretend to be a sorcerer, but a sorcerer can never be anything but a mutable ball of wands.

Sorcerers get shafted because they are a redundant class.
They have nothing to offer that the wizard does not, unlike every other full caster.

[weenog]

You say you have no problem with the sorcerer being unable to easily do everything, but then you complain that they have nothing to offer that the guy who can easily do everything doesn't.  Think about that for a little while.

[SneeR]

You say you have no problem with the sorcerer being unable to easily do everything, but then you complain that they have nothing to offer that the guy who can easily do everything doesn't.  Think about that for a little while.

I don't want the class to do everything! 

I just don't want the class to merely be "wizard, minus some."
Sorceror is not a class, its a few feats or a few thousand gold. I want to know why someone would play a sorcerer.
You answered an honest question with a snarky statement. Congratulations on the useless award, bub.

What do I want from sorcerer? Dread Necromancer. Beguiler. Things with mechanically-supported flavor.
I don't want the sorcerer to one-up the wizard. I don't care about the wizard, except that wizard makes sorcerer obsolete. There is no reason to play a sorcerer, because it can literally be emulated by just an animated pile of eternal wands taped together.

So, again, sir: Why would someone want to play a sorcerer rather than a wizard?

[weenog]

They want access to sorcerer-only spells and other options.

They understand, as you don't, that a spell actually cast by a full caster is much more potent than a spell cast from a wand.

They don't like the bother of micromanaging every detail every day, preferring to make a few good decisions every so often and then sticking with them.

They value spell slot quantity and/or rapid-response flexibility, and don't have access to the splats that give wizards many more spells per day, or ability to fake spontaneous casting.

They plan to pick up Leadership later.

They plan to do anything else involving Charisma, and don't want more MAD.

They don't have tier envy, and can be satisfied with Good Enough.

Their DM follows the imbalanced multiclassing rules (it's more common than you probably think), and their preferred race requires them to use Sorcerer in the build, or suffer XP penalties.

I'm sure there are more reasons, these are just the ones that come easily to memory from having encountered or experienced them personally.

[SneeR]

Oh! Well that makes sense!
There you go.

I still don't like the class, but at least now I can understand why anyone would want to take one. Certainly, many of those reasons are nonmechanical, but they are nonetheless valid problems that I have encountered as well.

[weenog]

Oh come on, the only reasons there that aren't mechanical are the micromanaging nuisance and the tier envy thing.

A special ability checking whether or not you're a sorcerer before you're allowed to take it is mechanical.

A spell costing drastically more wealth to cast, or having a very wimpy caster level and relevant ability score, is mechanical.

Minimizing micromanagement is a personal preference thing.

Inability to cast large numbers of spells per day and/or cast them spontaneously, due to absence of rules saying you can, is mechanical. (Granted the reason for it is not, but the fact of it is.)

Leadership varying in effectiveness based on how high your Charisma score is, is mechanical.

Other abilities keyed to Charisma (such as all of them in a paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/sacred exorcist 8) varying in effectiveness based on how high your Charisma score is, is mechanical.

Tier envy is a personal preference thing.

Earning 20% (or more!) less XP because your highest-leveled base class isn't your favored class, is mechanical.