What makes fighting with more than 1 weapon viable?

[Endarire]

I heard bonus damage like from Sneak Attack or Swordsage boosts makes TWF, multiwielding, etc. viable.  How much damage are we talking here?  What else is wise or needed?

[Solo]

Many extra attacks.

[veekie]

Multiple weapons eh, the weaknesses are:
Reduced reach - The only one handed reach weapons are either weak or obscure, and all exotic.
Strong Dex requirements
-Lower Str(due to stat split)
-Lower AC(due to heavy armor restrictions)
-Restrictions on buffs. The easiest sources of damage increase, sizing up, might screw you up.
Heavy feat investment
-The TWF chain, and if you want to hit, Weapon Finesse
-The shield chain if you're using shields instead of paired light weapons.
Lower to-hit. If you're using TWF, you stack the -2/-2 with iterative penalties on later attacks.
Loss of Power Attack, using a light weapon in at least one hand means you are halving the benefit while doubling the cost. Using two light weapons rule it out entirely(barring twin 1H styles)
Cost. All multiweapon styles are expensive. Weapons are already the most expensive enchantment.
-Straight TWF buys enchantments for two weapons
-S&B buys enchantments for two weapons and a shield.
-Natural weapon styles makes use of one of the less efficient weapon enhancers, the Amulet of Mighty Fists. The ratio does improve when you have a bajillion of natural weapons though.
-Poison/Flask styles have a problem with staying supplied. It costs quite a bit per shot.
Weight. Due to weaker Str and preserving encumbrance, inventory management may be an issue at lower levels
-Flasks are heavy, you can probably chuck up to your light load of them in a round easily.
Requires full attacks. Admittedly a problem with everything but archery and ubercharging, you need to be based with an enemy to do something. Weaker AC is going to sting.
Vulnerable to special attacks, most of the ones that target weapons will be looking at weapon size and str. Yours are tiny and your arms are weak.

Strengths:
A bajillion attacks.
-If you can hit at all, you will. Very rarely would you fail to do damage entirely.
-If you are crit fishing for triggers, you will too.
-Anything which enhances multiple attacks get royally boosted.
--Sneak attacks and other on-demand precision damage sources go straight through the roof if you hit.
--Bonus damage enhancements count for a hell of a lot more. The <energy> Burst enchants might as actually see some use.
--General buffs see the same benefit. A +2 to hit goes a lot further when you have a lower to-hit from TWFing and weaker attack stats in general. And then theres adding bards.

Mitigation:
If you have a source of Greater Magic Weapon/Greater Magic Fang/Greater Mighty Whallop, it takes the burden of costs off your shoulders.
Dex dependency can be voided(and thus many associated flaws) by using the Agile Shield Fighter or Natural Weapon methods.
Work on your strengths. Get precision damage, high criticals, whatever. Magnify those.
Get pounce or something like it to deal with lower defenses. In any of these forms you are a natural for alpha strikes.
Get concealment or some other means to void damage while you close in. Can't hit if they don't know you're there.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd like to make a TWF build more often, but it's so reliant on pouncing and/or other forms of full attacking.  And that's SO boring to me...  I rather prefer playing skirmisher type melee characters.

I just wish there were mechanics to do cool stuff other than attacks with TWF by taking the (-2, usually) penalty, and not reliant on a full attack, or at least not all of them.  Like opting to use your offhand weapon for a round to negate attacks by one weapon a foe has (up to a limit of your offhand attacks?).  Or a massive bonus on trip checks if you use TWF penalty (or sacrifice an attack from each weapon) to exert two opposing forces on the foe simultaneously to better knock him off balance.

Crap like that.  I could probably design some PrC based around that or something if I wasn't so lazy...

[Unbeliever]

^ feats that do that may be an even better approach, imho.

As others have noted, there's a lot of abilities in the D&D corpus that give you bonus damage on your attacks.  So, getting more attacks really benefits from those.  And, twf is one of the most common ways to do so, though I think it generally pales in comparison to natural weapons:  3 feats and a dip into Druid or Wildshape Ranger can net you like 14 attacks by 5th or 6th level ...

I think it's also the case that shields don't automatically grant that big a bonus, or a bonus to something that is often outpaced if you don't put some effort into it (AC), so the opportunity cost is low.

I'd personally consider having someone use a twf style or flurry style with a single weapon if they wanted to.  If you limit it to them holding nothing in their off-hand, the only advantage it has over twf is that they only need to buy a single magical weapon, which is probably balanced out by a feat or two or something. 

[X-Codes]

The problem with Veekie's post is that it's based on the idea that you're taking the entire TWF chain, which is the worst way to TWF.  You either use Agile Shield Fighter or the first TWF Feat + Gloves of the Balanced Hand.  This lets you make a minimal investment into Dex and max out Strength just like you always do with a front-line fighter.

Sure, you get fewer attacks, but that 3rd iterative is crap, anyway.

[Amechra]

Knowledge Devotion is lovely for TWF; +5 Attack/Damage an attack is awesome.

I've always wanted to play something with Dual-Wielded Gnomish Quickblades and Iajatsu Focus; hell, with the addition of making those quickblades Aptitude, you can Lightning Mace their faces.

But you know what's fun? Shatter Bolts on a pair of Crossbows; they bump up the crit range to 18-20, and the crit multiplier to x3. Sadly, they break easily.

But, yeah... only other thing I can suggest is Necrotic Focus weapons and a level in Soul Eater; no one argues with your fighting style if you give them 3+ Negative levels a round.

[Lycanthromancer]

Monk (with lots of uber ACFs)/kensai with Far Shot, TWF (and the gloves, but no more TWF feats), a psychoactive skin of proteus, and a souped-up necklace of natural attacks (with throwing, distance, ghost touch, collision, manyfanged, etc).

Then turn into a 7-headed hydra and rock out.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Monk (with lots of uber ACFs)/kensai with Far Shot, TWF (and the gloves, but no more TWF feats), a psychoactive skin of proteus, and a souped-up necklace of natural attacks (with throwing, distance, ghost touch, collision, manyfanged, etc).

Then turn into a 7-headed hydra and rock out.

You mean there are monks who use items???

[Lycanthromancer]

Monk (with lots of uber ACFs)/kensai with Far Shot, TWF (and the gloves, but no more TWF feats), a psychoactive skin of proteus, and a souped-up necklace of natural attacks (with throwing, distance, ghost touch, collision, manyfanged, etc).

Then turn into a 7-headed hydra and rock out.

You mean there are monks who use items???

Nah. I was screwing with you. Why would they ever want to do that?

[Solo]

Because of wands?

[Shiki]

Vecna Monks UMD all day long. Viable^TM.

[skydragonknight]

E6 Twin Boomerang Dazer:

(click to show/hide)

Race: Strongheart Halfling
Cloistered Cleric (Ideal) Knowledge Devotion(B), Travel Devotion(B), EWP: Talenta Boomerang(B), Weapon Focus: Talenta Boomerang(B), Point Blank Shot , Precise Shot(Strongheart Halfling), Two-Weapon Fighting(Flaw: Vulnerable), Extra Turning(Flaw: Poor Reflexes)
Ranger 1 Track(B)
Scout 1 Dead Eye
Scout 2
Scout 3
Scout 4 Swift Hunter(B), Boomerang Daze
1st E6 bonus feat: Improved Skirmish

You worship the ideal of the hunter: nomadic, knowledgeable about all manner of beasts and the use of a traditional hunting weapon: the boomerang. The Ranger and Scout classes fold neatly into this theme.

Domains: Knowledge (traded for Devotion), Travel (traded for devotion), War
Favored Enemy: Undead +4, Elementals +2
Notes:
-You only need good Dex and Con, with a bit of Wisdom for Listen/Spot and Will saves. Leftovers for Str and Int, but neither is vital.
-With a Charisma of 8, you can Travel Devotion 4/day. You one ugly guy. If you have the stats for 12 Cha, drop Extra Turning. You Should be able to live with 3 Travel Devotions a day.
-Dex to damage with Dead Eye. Limited to 30 ft (like Skirmish) but doesn't replace Str, so up to 14(12 for halfling) in Str is okay if given a generous stat gen.
-Knowledge Devotion is a bit of a freebie here and not a real focus. You'll really only reach the +1 or +2 range, but it literally costs you nothing due to Cloistered Cleric.
-Talenta boomerangs are light, so TWF is fine. No need for Quick draw since you can draw as part of the travel devotion move action.

To hit: +4 BAB +Dex +1 size +1 halfling +1 Point Blank Shot +1 Weapon Focus +1 Knowledge Devotion -2 Two-Weapon Fighting = +12 with 20 dex (point buy of 15 +2 racial +1 level +2 enhancement item)
My thoughts: Pretty average. You won't be soloing encounters but you have a decent chance for one of the boomerangs to connect.

Damage: 1d4 +Dex +1 Knowledge Devotion +1 Point Blank Shot +4d6 Skirmish = avg. 23 damage with 20 Dex, or a DC 33 Fort save vs. Boomerang Daze
-1 damage vs. undead, -3 vs. elementals. Other crit immunes...run.

My thoughts: Not bad. Not a Shocktrooper build, but has better defenses and a built in debuff so it's certainly viable. The biggest downside is the need to be within 30 ft of the enemy...but still better than being 5 or 10 ft from them.

[Tr011]

Strong Dex requirements
Lower to-hit. If you're using TWF, you stack the -2/-2 with iterative penalties on later attacks.
-Poison/Flask styles have a problem with staying supplied. It costs quite a bit per shot.

There's a race in Dragon Compendium I that ignores dex requirements for TWF. They also can use two Two-Handed weapons, so Power Attack becomes available again.
There's a template (multiheaded from SS) that gives Superior TWF, it's kinda expensive for a +2 LA, but maybe there are other sources for this. Superior TWF is really useful because it's TWF with no penalties and you get all extra attacks as if your second hand would be your primary hand, too. I'm sure you can get some use out of this, especially with LA-buyoff.
And seriously, who pays for poison? There's a Feat in XPH that gives you 2 PP and a lvl 1 power, take minor creation and you got your poisons.

[veekie]

Those are basically listing the default flaws. Obviously many builds overcome or work around them, but they do need to be overcome.

Really the most critical of these is the need for full attacks to do anything at all with your preferred style. Especially when conceptually speaking many TWF warriors tend to be higher mobility types in lighter armors.
If you don't have access to mobile full attacks, you might as well put a crystal of return on your second weapon(assuming you aren't using paired Lights like the dex styles favor) and charge with your primary weapon two handed(and power attacking) before quick drawing the second.

Mobility Options:
-Pounce is the more popular one hereabouts, but since not all GMs approve of Lion Totem, sometimes you need to know alternatives still. Theres also spell and spell like sources, Psychic Warriors have a handy one, despite hurting from the 3/4 BAB.
-Free movement is another, Sudden Leap, Anklets of Translocation, Travel Devotion, that Chronocharm I can't recall, Belts of Battle.
-Standard action multiweapon. Offhand theres the two weapon pounce feat, and a Tiger Claw maneuver. Not usually very effective as a mainstay(you probably won't be killing things in two hits), but its better than nothing.
-Dervish dance. The prereqs really hurt, but TWF does work fairly decently with a +X to hit and damage along with the movement. You're going to be taking a hell of a ton of AoOs though. And you still need a speed boost to get anywhere.

Did I miss anything?

[Solo]

You know, it might be interesting to give someone who wields a weapon in one hand extra attacks...

[Jackinthegreen]

You know, it might be interesting to give someone who wields a weapon in one hand extra attacks...

That one I DEFINITELY agree with.  Even though BAB is supposedly a measure of getting solid hits in between the constant parrying and such, the number of attacks good fencers can make is rather impressive.  Same for boxers too of course, but the Pugilist variant in Dragon 310 is a great starting point on that.

[ImperatorK]

Wouldn't then one-handing be much better then TWFing? And what would be the point of TWFing if you could get more attacks with just one weapon?

[Solo]

 

Wouldn't then one-handing be much better then TWFing? And what would be the point of TWFing if you could get more attacks with just one weapon?

Depends on the penalty we assigned the extra attack and how it was obtained. For example, requiring a feat and giving the attack at a -5 penalty, with your strength modifier to damage, is probably less likely to obsolete TWF.

[ImperatorK]

So something like Slashing Flurry (PHB2)?