[3.P] Summoner is tier 2 or 3?

[LordBlades]

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with.

IMO, Summoner fits that definition really well. It does a thing quite well l (combat) and can add some out of combat utility (has some good spells but is very llimited by spells known/spells per day). Yet, it's listed ad tier 2 in the PF tier thread here and I'm at a loss why.

Only thong that fits tier 2 seems to be Gate, and comparing it to Dread Necro ( a definite 3.5 tier 3) summoner seems to come out short: Animate Dead is at least on par with Eidolon combat-wise, spell lists are IMO comparable and if you're looking for utility, planar binding beats summon monster.

So:
Why is the summoner tier 2 in PF?
And, if ported to 3.5 with min support (no archetypes or fav class bonuses, no PF races or feats, 3.5 nat attack mechanics, duplicate spells use the 3.5 versions) will it stilll be tier 2?

[Madwand]

IMO the free summons and eidolon summoners get, in addition to one of the best 6-level casting spell lists, makes them tier 2.

Synthesist summoners are a pretty solid tier 3, primarily because they lose summons and actions in combat (normal summoners can cast spells and attack with their eidolon at the same time). They are ridiculously fun to play though, so still worth the nerf.

Tier won't change if ported to 3.5, though they will be even more powerful in comparison to 3.5 classes. PF classes are generally stronger than their 3.5 counterparts (there are arguable exceptions).

[LordBlades]

IMO the free summons and eidolon summoners get, in addition to one of the best 6-level casting spells lists, makes them tier 2.

Synthesist summoners are a pretty solid tier 3, primarily because they lose summons and actions in combat (normal summoners can cast spells and attack with their eidolon at the same time). They are ridiculously fun to play though, so still worth the nerf.

Tier won't change if ported to 3.5, though they will be even more powerful in comparison to 3.5 classes. PF classes are generally stronger than their 3.5 counterparts (there are arguable exceptions).

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job.

In what way would a summoner (again, barring Gate) have as much raw power as a tier 1? Also, what campaign smashers does a sumoner have acess to? I see very little in the definition of tier 2 that fits a summoner.

[Madwand]

The summoners spell list, his summons, and his eidolon are all potential "campaign smashers" for an unprepared GM. There are several spells that can arguably "break the game" on this list, including many of the best battlefield control spells, teleport, etc. The summons are amazing, particularly when backed by the right feats. And they last a long, long time. The eidolon can have the highest AC in the party and do the most damage quite easily (though a well-optimized PC can do better, the eidolon has a very high optimization floor), and has access to permanent flight very early. Even when trying to downplay the summoner's advantages, my summoners have raised eyebrows and ire in my fairly high-op group just due to general competence.

This is not to say they outpower a heavily-optimized T2 PC, particularly in 3.5. A mailman build will probably smash them flat. But for your average group, even if they optimize well, the summoner will come across as very consistently having the answers to the problems the group has, and will have several tricks that few others can match, all at the same time.

I've seen a few people argue the Summoner is T1 or even T0, but those people have no idea what they are talking about. They just saw how powerful the summoner was in their game and overreacted. Still though, it points to how powerful they can be in your average party.

[LordBlades]

I don't think 'campaign smashers' in the context of the tier system means 'combat smashers'. After all, martial classes, some of which are VERY good at combat don't climb higher than tier 3.Regarding summoners having answers to problems: unless it's combat, teleportation or happens to be dolvable with a summoned creature SLA, how does the summoner handle it? Stuff like social encounters, tracking down individuals/items and finding their weaknesses, sneaking around, gaining insight in tje enemy's plans etc. ?

Then ther's also summoner in comparison to other tier 3s (I use 3.5 examples because I'm way more familiar with it:

Dread Necromancer: Can provide at least comparable melee potential with Animate Dead (or more depending on what bodies you find), has at least an equaly good spell list and for utility purposes Planar Binding beats Summon Monster by a long shot.

Also, Psychic Warriors: they can get way better at melee than an eidolon, have a versatile power list and can cherry pick (via Expanded Knowledge and Mantled Warrior) powers of a tier 2 list. Summoner wins in action economy though.

On the one hand, beyond the lowest optimization levels (summmoner does have a rather high floor IMO) I don't see Summoner pulling ahead either of those 2. On the other, what tier 2 class would the summoner even begin to approach in power?

[Soft Insanity]

Their spell list makes them solid T-2.  Due to the nature of their 6 levels of prepared casting and higher level spells as lower, they actually have more potential casting than a sorcerer due to this thing called magic items (rings of wizardry).  That's not including their SLA.  This is a major design flaw that shows the "designers" who made the class need to learn their own system.

The Eidolon, while fun, isn't as useful as the standard action minutes per level SLA they get.  I've had much more luck with the master summoner variant.  If you mix them with 3.5 the SNA instead of SM variants become silly town when combined with Greenbound and Ashbound.  Add in Superior Summoning for that pack of direwolves you've been dreaming about.

[Madwand]

I didn't mean to say the summoner was only a 'combat smasher', although they are definitely that too. The summoner has an answer for almost any problem the party might face; they are one of the few PCs I've played who I felt could possibly solo not just most encounters but an entire campaign. Social encounters aren't a problem: Summoners have Charisma as a primary stat, I've had no issue buying up Diplomancy (PF rules make this practical) and with that and a Mask of Stony Demeanor, I've rocked social encounters. Diplomacy also covers Gather Information in PF so social tracking is covered. I'm not the party tracker, but if I wanted to be it would be easy to give my eidolon scent and the largest Survival bonus in the party (by a lot). I'm also one of the only PCs comfortable going undercover with an enemy group, because I know with one spell (Summon Eidolon) I can wipe the floor with the enemy if I'm discovered, or just escape. If I cared about being sneaky, it wouldn't be hard to take ranks in stealth and get a +8 bonus from my eidolon (I'm playing Synthesist). Reduce Person and other spells make it easier, too. A summoner can adjust their eidolon level-by-level to fit the needs of the party. However, there's no need to fill rare roles already covered by other PCs.

Dread Necromancer is great if the DM lets them abuse their powers to the maximum. Most DMs won't allow that, and they still don't have answers for a lot of the situations you've named above. Summoner has Planar Binding too so for utility there's really not much contest.

I've seen psychic warriors in action. They're great. I'd take the versatility of my synthesist any day though.

[Unbeliever]

I think both of you are misunderstanding the Tiers system.  You're looking at the classes, like Sorcerer, and then comparing how the Summoner stacks up against it. 

The relevant question is what game-changers are available to the Summoner?  I have no idea, I haven't perused the list.  But, that's where it will matter.  For example, 6th level spells, but from a very restricted list, could leave you at Tier 3.  Very limited casting, but free to cherry pick the most game-breaking spells available (think of something like the Divine Crusader) could be T2 or even T1. 

As LordBlades notes, characters who are great at combat, say the Uber-Charger, who wrecks combat, tend to be T3. 

As I understand them, and I am far from expert on this, the Tiers represent, essentially breadth of capabilities.  Along with maybe a dash of "how much is this going to fuck up my campaign?"  Tier 1 characters are Tier 1 b/c they can do everything in a game -- kick ass, take names, make friends, influence people, build houses -- and also have access to a variety of abilities that can potentially make things go pear-shaped.  I don't think the Tiers are the be-all, end-all of game mechanics heuristics, but that's what the thread is about. 

EDIT:  the above was written before Madwand's post immediately above, so take it with a grain of salt.  That being said, wouldn't a Rogue, or similar skilled character, who also happened to be good at combat, be T2 by that logic?  It just seems like you could say the same thing about the Binder or the Beguiler, and they both sit in T3 land, according to JaronK.  But, ymmv.

[Soft Insanity]

The relevant question is what game-changers are available to the Summoner?  I have no idea, I haven't perused the list.  But, that's where it will matter.  For example, 6th level spells, but from a very restricted list, could leave you at Tier 3.  Very limited casting, but free to cherry pick the most game-breaking spells available (think of something like the Divine Crusader) could be T2 or even T1. 

"Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)"

The Binder (with access to online vestiges) indicates these guys are T-2 because it's the Zceryll vestige that gives them the boost.  With just the Summon Monster SLA they get all the casting of those summoned monsters.  I'll even step it up and say drop that and just look at their spell list and how well it combos with things like rings of wizardry.

[Madwand]

Our party rogue is pretty good, and when he can get flanking, can occasionally even outdamage my PC. He can't solo encounters, though. He needs help with flanking, his AC is 15 points lower than mine, and his saves aren't as good. He can't use Planar Binding, can't summon backup, can never be as good a tracker as I could, can't teleport, can't use battlefield control spells, his HP are much lower, etc.

Binder's (especially with access to online vestiges) and Beguilers are doing a lot better by comparison. They're T2 and T3 respectively, of course, so that's to be expected. It's tough for me to compare though as I don't have a lot of experience with them (the only binder I've played was an Anima Mage, and a strong T1). I'd say that the summoners summoning SLA is actually better than Zceryll, though, as it's available at *all* levels. And it's Zceryll alone that makes Binder T2, so there's that.

[Emanresu]

dont bite my head off, Buut since this is a summoner thread related with tier strength how does the Druid SnA specialist with augment summoning, ashbound & greenbound stack up? (and whatever other feats are associated w/ the Druid specializing in SnA)

[Madwand]

Druid is tier 1. With those feats, a very, very strong tier 1. See the tier system here:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=v0ctgc23hose07dcuqv8qlg6c1&topic=5293

[Endarire]

Summoner feels like tier 3 to me.  It's a strong tier 3.  Note that spontaneous fixed list casters in 3.5 (like the Warmage and Dread Necro) are no more than tier 3.  Gate helps the Summoner, but even the Healer gets access to gate!

In a 3.5 game, a First Worlder Summoner + Greenbound at low levels means win.  Remember, you don't need to take the Eidolon replacement aspect of that archetype.

[Gazzien]

Remember, you don't need to take the Eidolon replacement aspect of that archetype.

And why is that? You have to take all features of an archetype, and I don't see a "you may" or "you can" anywhere...

[Soft Insanity]

Just be a half-elf and take wildcaller instead of going first worlder.  Take know planes for your skill feat so you can get the 1d6 elemental damage feat later.  The eidolon is pretty much only summoned with the summon eidolon spell anyway.  Your greenbound/ashbounds will be doing the heavy lifting.  Unfortunately you can't mix the master summoner with any of the SNA archetypes due to the gate change.  Hey, while your at it being a half elf, take the favored class bonus to make it 1/2 point every level.

This and superior summons are the reason pathfinder and 3.5 shouldn't be mixed.  My malconvoker would love superior summons and the racial sorc feat chain to get 4 demons for the price of one.

[LordBlades]

One more thing I'm pondering atm:(not necessarily related to summoner's tier, although it has been brought up above): if summon monster alone causes the binder to jump from tier 3 to 2, why is for example Dread Necromancer still tier 3 despite having Planar Binding (in many ways a vastly superior utility spell line) ?

[linklord231]

One more thing I'm pondering atm:(not necessarily related to summoner's tier, although it has been brought up above): if summon monster alone causes the binder to jump from tier 3 to 2, why is for example Dread Necromancer still tier 3 despite having Planar Binding (in many ways a vastly superior utility spell line) ?

Couple of reasons.  First, Zycerryl's monster summoning is based on Summon Monster, which means you don't have to bargain with the things you summon for services.  Second, Dread Necro's don't get Magic Circle, so their only option is to kill the thing they summon and raise it under their command, which has several obvious disadvantages.  Third, Zcerryl's summon ability is usable as a standard action, and you can summon another one whenever you feel like.  It's basically free spontaneous casting of any spell that appears as an SLA for a Summon Monster monster, which is a pretty decent selection.  That third bit is actually the biggest reason, in my opinion. 

Although to be totally fair, I'm not convinced that Zcerryl is enough to bump Binders to T2.  They have absolutely staggering versatility, but I don't see any campaign smashers on the magnitude of what the Sorcerer or Psion can do.  At this point, we're talking about things like Locate City Bombs or Linked Synchronicity + PP Recharge to nova all at once.  Binders can do a lot of things at a moment's notice, but they can't destroy entire towns in a standard action or create their own impenetrable demiplanes.  Unless I'm mistaken and there's a Summonable Monster that gets Wish as an SLA or something. 

[LordBlades]

Although to be totally fair, I'm not convinced that Zcerryl is enough to bump Binders to T2.  They have absolutely staggering versatility, but I don't see any campaign smashers on the magnitude of what the Sorcerer or Psion can do.  At this point, we're talking about things like Locate City Bombs or Linked Synchronicity + PP Recharge to nova all at once.  Binders can do a lot of things at a moment's notice, but they can't destroy entire towns in a standard action or create their own impenetrable demiplanes.  Unless I'm mistaken and there's a Summonable Monster that gets Wish as an SLA or something.

That's what I feel too tbh. My questions was phrased more toward 'Why are binders with Zceryll considered tier 2' rather than 'why dread necros aren't'

[phaedrusxy]

Although to be totally fair, I'm not convinced that Zcerryl is enough to bump Binders to T2.  They have absolutely staggering versatility, but I don't see any campaign smashers on the magnitude of what the Sorcerer or Psion can do.  At this point, we're talking about things like Locate City Bombs or Linked Synchronicity + PP Recharge to nova all at once.  Binders can do a lot of things at a moment's notice, but they can't destroy entire towns in a standard action or create their own impenetrable demiplanes.  Unless I'm mistaken and there's a Summonable Monster that gets Wish as an SLA or something.

That's what I feel too tbh. My questions was phrased more toward 'Why are binders with Zceryll considered tier 2' rather than 'why dread necros aren't'

I agree. Even with Zcerryl, they're still high Tier 3. Of course, arguing about Tiers is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... 

[Gazzien]

Although to be totally fair, I'm not convinced that Zcerryl is enough to bump Binders to T2.  They have absolutely staggering versatility, but I don't see any campaign smashers on the magnitude of what the Sorcerer or Psion can do.  At this point, we're talking about things like Locate City Bombs or Linked Synchronicity + PP Recharge to nova all at once.  Binders can do a lot of things at a moment's notice, but they can't destroy entire towns in a standard action or create their own impenetrable demiplanes.  Unless I'm mistaken and there's a Summonable Monster that gets Wish as an SLA or something.

That's what I feel too tbh. My questions was phrased more toward 'Why are binders with Zceryll considered tier 2' rather than 'why dread necros aren't'

I agree. Even with Zcerryl, they're still high Tier 3. Of course, arguing about Tiers is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin... 

Well, it's none - angels don't dance. I mean, they can enjoy the Music of the Spheres, but they sure don't get down and boogie.