Hit Points: Why do people hate human toughness, but love inhuman reflexes?

[Raineh Daze]

And yet there's no standard "I get better at dodging/parrying swords" stat or bonus, other than hit points. "I get better at dodging fireballs" has its own distinct representation (reflex saves), but aside from a few insignificant/finicky/costly dodge bonuses that you the player have to go out of your way to obtain, hit points are the only representation of "I get beter at sword-dodging." Clunky and cognitively dissonant? Yes; but there it is.

If you want something like that in 3.5, use the Defense Bonus variant. 

Using that, a Monk 1/Cleric 19 now effectively has the highest AC in the game by a long, long margin. @_@

[Unbeliever]

@Complete4th
You're not making sense.  You're arguing 2 contradictory sides of the argument at the same time. 

How does 4E both emphasize the abstract nature of hit points and then separate out into a separate mechanic (level based defense bonuses) the stuff that would make them abstract.?  As you noted, they are purely "meat points" in 4E, or at least a lot more so. 

Ok, cool.  But, then how do you make sense of a Healing Surge or something like that?  That is, a fairly mundane "I have a bunch more meat points now" effect.  So, they have to be abstract, and represent something other than meat points.  In that case, they are pretty much the same as 3E.  I have no interest in perpetual edition wars, but that was the comparison you wanted to draw.

Oh, and stats increase as you level, so the dichotomy you want to draw with regards to Dex isn't as strong as you're arguing.

[linklord231]

Using that, a Monk 1/Cleric 19 now effectively has the highest AC in the game by a long, long margin. @_@

How is it different from a Cleric 20 with a Monk's Belt?

[Raineh Daze]

Using that, a Monk 1/Cleric 19 now effectively has the highest AC in the game by a long, long margin. @_@

How is it different from a Cleric 20 with a Monk's Belt?

It's not, but you could use a different belt.

Also that is an item I try to pretend doesn't exist.

[Complete4th]

If you want something like that in 3.5, use the Defense Bonus variant.

Yes, I was using something like this during my 3.x career, except it didn't largely obsolete armor.

@Complete4th
You're not making sense.  You're arguing 2 contradictory sides of the argument at the same time.

That may be because I wasn't originally debating anything; I was merely commenting on Flaming Cow's experience that 'hit points = dodge/luck points' advocates tend to be either 4e gamers or 3e gamers copying 4e gamers. Which seems odd to me, as hit points have been a combination of many things since the game's very beginning.

How does 4E both emphasize the abstract nature of hit points and then separate out into a separate mechanic (level based defense bonuses) the stuff that would make them abstract.?  As you noted, they are purely "meat points" in 4E, or at least a lot more so.

My bad, it might have been more accurate to write '4e treats hit points abstractly like every other edition, with a default assumption of hit points as luck/fatigue.' I myself prefer a 'hit points = protective energy points' interpretation, but the 4e text quite often takes a dramatic interpretation of hit points. The standard PC healing power is called Second Wind, warlords inspire hit points up, etc. Of course there are still things that heavily imply a meat point interpretation, like Con affecting hit points and clerics healing hit points up; but more than other editions, the 4e text paints a cinematic picture. There's even an article somewhere on the Wizards site that responds to the fan question of "How do I interpret hit point loss by default?" The article's response is "Until the damage is actually healed, assume that a warlord could restore the lost hit points" -- in other words, assume that the damaged character is tired, discouraged, bruised, or whatever.

Again, not my personal take on hit points, but there it is.

Ok, cool.  But, then how do you make sense of a Healing Surge or something like that?  That is, a fairly mundane "I have a bunch more meat points now" effect.  So, they have to be abstract, and represent something other than meat points.  In that case, they are pretty much the same as 3E.  I have no interest in perpetual edition wars, but that was the comparison you wanted to draw.

I agree that hit points haven't changed all that much since the 70s. They've been abstract, inconsistent, gamist, and controversial since the start, and they still are. I see a noteworthy difference between 4e hit points and hit points in other e's due to its level-based AC bonuses and healing surges, but ya, it ain't worth edition raging about.

Oh, and stats increase as you level, so the dichotomy you want to draw with regards to Dex isn't as strong as you're arguing.

Erm, you mean the +1 per four levels 3.x ability boost that PCs can use to boost Dex? That's hardly convincing as a skill-based contribution to sword-dodging. Maybe it's just me, but I find it horribly disruptive to suspension of disbelief when a nude 20th level warrior-type is by default no more likely to dodge a sword attack than his younger 1st level self.

[RobbyPants]

A lot of people out there assume that D&D heroes should be more fragile than real-world people. While having no trouble that in D&D every average Joe with a positive Dex mod has good enough reflexes to try to dodge arrows.

I don't think he entirely missed the point. Most "modern" people have no idea how tough humans can really be. Even in wars, most people don't die directly from their injuries. They die from infections later. Barring lucky shots (i.e. crits), humans can sustain a hell of a lot of damage, particularly if they're hyped up on adrenaline, before they die. Most people don't know this, though, and have watched too many movies where people die quickly in one shot, or have heard stories about the unlucky guy who fell down the stairs and died, etc.

Game designers certainly seem to fall into this "clueless" category (some more than others).

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head. Thanks to movies, people have an unrealistic expectation for what guns can do to people. From my understanding, the vast majority of gun shots are not fatal if you can get to the hospital inside of an hour. Similarly, most movies tend not to show as much "undo suffering" from being stabbed with a sword, particularly in mook fights. A person gets stabbed, and they die pretty quickly. The fact that the hero frequently only gets a bunch of flesh wounds is often lost on opponents of the HP system.

That being said, when it comes to reflexes, you can improve your reflexes with training. People can do some really crazy things with lots of training. So, I think people just sort of assume that this is a somewhat open-ended thing, where moar training = moar reflexes.

So, people walk away with unrealistic expectations about what a person should survive and what a person could conceivably avoid.

[Unbeliever]

Fair enough, and I very much agree that hit points are and have ever been a mishmash.  I tend to take a fairly straightforward view.  They are physical damage, but the amount of punishment you can take varies with skill, experience, and all around awesomeness.  But, I don't dwell on it much. 

So, at 2nd level that spear thrust hits you in the gut, a pretty serious wound.  At 9th level, you interpose your arm in the same thrust, and suffer something that's a painful irritation but not nearly so life threatening.  That sort of thing. 

Note that as far as simulating the fiction the game is aiming for, i.e., not real life, hit points more or less work.  Conan, Arargorn, or [insert favorite action hero here] suffer a lot of injuries.  They get battered and stabbed and abraded a fair bit.  But, they have the grit to fight through it.  A few slashes from those bandits don't appreciably stop Conan from cleaving their leader in twain.  Mostly they serve to annoy him and make him look awesome.  So, there's that.  The only big issue is that it's just so binary:  you go from "fine" to "dying," and there's nothing in between for "broken arm" or "significant injury."  A few other games do that sort of thing ok, but D&D just hasn't done a great job at implementing it, at least not that I've seen.

[Stratovarius]

The only big issue is that it's just so binary:  you go from "fine" to "dying," and there's nothing in between for "broken arm" or "significant injury."  A few other games do that sort of thing ok, but D&D just hasn't done a great job at implementing it, at least not that I've seen.

What I've usually seen in D&D is people use something along the lines of "fake" negative levels or ability damage or other forms of penalties. The problem is they're the kind of things that are easy to apply in a cRPG, but much harder in pen and paper, because of all the recalculations involved, especially at high levels. And they need to scale relative to character level as well. A negative level at 3rd level really hurts, whereas the same penalty at level 20 is much easier to shrug off. If there's a good system out there, though, I'd love to see it in action.

[Unbeliever]

White Wolf has probably the most widely known one, which amounts to something similar to negative levels based on how much of a fraction of your hit points you have left.  One Roll Engine has a fairly elaborate hit location rule, and so their injuries (unusable limbs, etc.) follows from that.

I agree completely with it being hard to do in tabletop.  A specific injury rule, like a broken arm or what have you, rather than a generalized penalty might feel more flavorful.  In addition to the logistics of it, I'd worry about it effectively biting the PCs a lot more than the enemies b/c they are the ones who often have to continue slogging through despite being injured.  The monsters are usually, well, dead, I guess.

[SolEiji]

The only big issue is that it's just so binary:  you go from "fine" to "dying," and there's nothing in between for "broken arm" or "significant injury."  A few other games do that sort of thing ok, but D&D just hasn't done a great job at implementing it, at least not that I've seen.

What I've usually seen in D&D is people use something along the lines of "fake" negative levels or ability damage or other forms of penalties. The problem is they're the kind of things that are easy to apply in a cRPG, but much harder in pen and paper, because of all the recalculations involved, especially at high levels. And they need to scale relative to character level as well. A negative level at 3rd level really hurts, whereas the same penalty at level 20 is much easier to shrug off. If there's a good system out there, though, I'd love to see it in action.

I often have something I call "Maiming" when running D&D.  It's a variable status effect rather than any hp damage itself and usually only happens with something unusual like a certain attack or trap designed to maim people (vorpal is a particular fatal maiming with the result of a missing head, followed by death).  So it's broken bones, horrible scarring, and the such.  Hp recovery doesn't help, but Regenerate usually does.  But the thing with that is maiming is a broad subject so its not usually something static like a negative level.  It really depends on what is maimed.

[Unbeliever]

Can you say more about the maiming mechanic you use? 

[SolEiji]

Can you say more about the maiming mechanic you use?

Sure.  Its been something I've always been keen to make a variant rule on, but I've never got around to it.  It rarely comes up though, and plenty of stuff in my head so I just usually refer to that when its needed.

Maiming is usually either the loss of functionality of a limb or organ (be it cut off or broken or in an otherwise unusable state), or some sort of long lasting scar.  As before I ad hoc the penalties involved but most of the penalties have references in other statuses or special effects.  For example if your left arm is unusable certain tasks are impossible (like two-weapon fighting) and other takes take a -2 penalty if they usually need two hands (like climbing).  Things like scars are usually less severe and come with general penalties that may be associated with the wound.  A scarred up face is likely bad for charisma skills.  A half-blind eye is bad for spotting.  And so forth.  Maiming is usually permanent until healed.

The difference between mere damage and maiming is severity.  For the same reason you can't cure light wounds a corpse back to living state, some wounds are too grievous to heal normally.  Limbs need to be re-attached, bones need to be set, wounds need to heal correctly.  To repair maiming you either need long term care (via Heal) or Regeneration or Regenerate magic.

But right, what causes maiming.  Well, that depends on how gritty I'm going with it but typically very little.  There's vorpal (which is usually also fatal) and there's the Flesh to Stone/Stone to Flesh thing I mentioned.  You can probably also do it against helpless creatures, cutting off an arm or torturing them.  You have a pretty low chance of being maimed in combat because maiming is serious and difficult to reverse.  Of course, for some hardcore gritty game maiming could be a lot easier to pull off.  One of the ideas I had come across was that instead of massive damage rules (which I don't use anyway), 50+ damage could trigger the risk of getting maimed instead.  Its less fatal but no less debilitating.  I'd actually have to figure out where the attack hit then, as a rule I try not to introduce unnecessary tables so I'd probably go with something simple like picking 1d4 (limbs, bones, flesh, head) or something of the sort.

(EDIT: Actually another way you can look at maiming is that you obtain a flaw, but without the bonus feat benefit.  The penalties are usually on par with these sorts of things.  Usually.)

[phaedrusxy]

I've been in games where the DM ad hocked this kind of thing, and it was quite interesting and fun, as long as the PCs were willing to go along with it. It might not be too fun if the player felt like it was something being imposed on their character against their will (and outside of the rules). So I'd suggest discussing it first.

I had a high level ranger who was paralyzed (rolled a 1) and almost brought to zero hit points (from full) by a bunch of ghouls once. The DM said that they'd basically eaten parts of his body (muscles), and imposed some penalties which couldn't be cured via standard Cure spells or the like. He had to trek halfway across the country on foot (with crutches he made out of tree limbs...) to find someone who could cast a Regenerat on him. It was one of the most memorable campaign arcs I've ever had the pleasure of playing in. 

[SolEiji]

I've been in games where the DM ad hocked this kind of thing, and it was quite interesting and fun, as long as the PCs were willing to go along with it. It might not be too fun if the player felt like it was something being imposed on their character against their will (and outside of the rules). So I'd suggest discussing it first.

I had a high level ranger who was paralyzed (rolled a 1) and almost brought to zero hit points (from full) by a bunch of ghouls once. The DM said that they'd basically eaten parts of his body (muscles), and imposed some penalties which couldn't be cured via standard Cure spells or the like. He had to trek halfway across the country on foot (with crutches he made out of tree limbs...) to find someone who could cast a Regenerat on him. It was one of the most memorable campaign arcs I've ever had the pleasure of playing in. 

That's pretty cool.  To be honest the only time I can remember using these rules was in backstory, and it was quickly solved via prosthetic which ended up becoming a permanent addition to the character.  I wish I could remember what character it was though.  I didn't play them I know that.

And if your wondering, Strata is not using these rules (or massive damage) yet.  If it ever comes up I'll be sure to ask.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Now and then in D&D a discussion crops up that HP is just an abstraction, and that you're only actually gravely hurt by the attack that takes your last HP. All the damage you took before? Just your super reflexes at work many people claim. Having a pointy stick driven trough your torso and keep going would be a suspension of disbelief they say.

So I say we take a look back at the real world. A world where:
-People have survived being riddled with bullets, being stabbd dozens of times, falling off planes, being burned alive, and many more.
-The roman army designed their spears so they would break into impact after being thrown, since so many of their enemies were capable of shrugging off having a spear driven trough their bodies and would pull it off their own flesh and throw it back at the romans before.
-People can live with permanent holes in their stomaches
-People can have an iron stake driven trough their head, spilling their brains, and still able to walk on their own and live for many years thereafter.

But you know what doesn't happen in the real world? People being able to consciously dodge bullets.

It comes down to two things, IMO.

1. Dodging stuff is just flashier and cooler to most people, and the people who long to play "the world's greatest punching bag" make up a very niche group.  (Heck, that was my main issue with 4E defenders; their aggro and lockdown abilities were pretty hit or miss, the one thing they truly all had in common was just having the most hp and healing surges; I don't *want* to play as someone whose job is to simply get beaten up a lot and take it)

2. In terms of believability... even if you are willing to accept the prospect of getting run through with a spear 10 times and surviving...it's extremely hard to believe one is surviving that *and* going on to win the fight.  Even if you survive it, it's surely f***ed you up pretty bad (ironically, D&D's Critical Existence Failure -- "I'm as good to go at 1 hp as at 100, baby!" -- swings too far in the opposite direction on this point).  While as the guy who just dodged all those spears?  He's not hurting or crippled at all.  It's really easy to picture him going on to win the fight.  The people in real life who fell thousands of feet or got shot in the head and lived didn't spring back to their feet and ran a marathon right after.  They got carted off to intensive care, generally.

You could design a class or system or whatever where a person takes insane damage (and not abstracted, actual stabbed-in-the-guts-is-this-real-enough-for-you-yet?! variety) and just shrugs it off like normal people would a pin prick, or someone with stupidly fast healing.  But such a creature would not resemble a human being in the slightest, to a far greater degree than a guy who has super reflexes.

[phaedrusxy]

the people who long to play "the world's greatest punching bag" make up a very niche group.

I guess I'm in that group... Marv was by far my favorite Sin City character.

[oslecamo]

You could design a class or system or whatever where a person takes insane damage (and not abstracted, actual stabbed-in-the-guts-is-this-real-enough-for-you-yet?! variety) and just shrugs it off like normal people would a pin prick, or someone with stupidly fast healing.  But such a creature would not resemble a human being in the slightest, to a far greater degree than a guy who has super reflexes.

Citation needed.

Because you see, that guy from my example who took an iron bar to the head? He was still walking on his own feet afterwards. He could've run the marathon if he wanted. Alas, running the marathon is something only a few people in the world do for fun.

Our bodies have a lot of redudant bits. And when pumped by adrenaline and with proper motivation, yes we can keep going with grievous wounds.

And we still look like regular humans.

But if you want a being that can actively dodge bullets in real life, then that would be the hideous inhuman monster, because such a creature would need a completely revamped muscle, sensory and nervous system.

I can post you plenty of pictures of people who suffered grievous injuries and kept going. There's some of these in my links already.

But can you post pictures of people who actively dodge bullet streams in the open? Real world people mind you? I believe you'll be quite hard pressed.

the people who long to play "the world's greatest punching bag" make up a very niche group.

I guess I'm in that group... Marv was by far my favorite Sin City character.

Also, Hulk, Thor, Superman, Wolverine and pretty much all western superheroes. It's a pretty damn long list of fictional punching bags that people long to play.

[ImperatorK]

People in D&D aren't RL people. They're fantasy people. They work differently. That's how I see it and do it in my games.

[Nytemare3701]

Can you say more about the maiming mechanic you use?

I have an old DM screen from the warhammer RPG.

It has amusing crit tables.

It has one of those tables for each body part. Yes there are groin crits.

[Raineh Daze]

Phineas Gage did not regularly take iron spikes to the head, however, and carry on as if nothing had happened each time. Also, there were some weird (temporary, according to what was found out of his family after doctors got bored) side effects on his personality for a while...