Mage Killing Assassin Build. Is such a thing even doable?

[ConBrio]

Edit: I no longer want to focus on mage killing. Please keep that in mind when responding.

I'd like a regular assassin. Someone who is excellent at manipulation, stealth, and poison. What is the best way to go about this?

Hello there.

I've recently joined a 3.5e DND game, and I've been going over some character concepts I want to play. I've settled on an assassination type character (poison use, hiding, disguise, bluff, diplomacy) but I want to be geared heavily towards defeating magic based classes by negating their magic some way (high will save, magical items, I have no idea).

I have a few questions.

1. Is it even possible to make an assassin character that can effectively neutralize magic?
2. If so, do I sacrifice a lot to be able to do it? Will I only be decent against magic wielders?
3. What builds/feats/items do you guys recommend? I have access to most books, but I'm new to DND so I'm not exactly sure of the best things to pick to satisfy my character concept.

1. What D&D books you can use?

I don't think my DM will ban anything as long as it was published by WOTC, and it isn't from that Dragon Magazine.

2. What type of character you want it to be?

Well if mage killing isn't possible without heavy sacrifice, I'd like a regular assassin. Someone who is excellent at manipulation, stealth, and poison.

3. What levels will this character be played at?

Not entirely sure. The DM said to expect level 6-7 by the end of this year, and we might continue next year, but no guarantees.
   
Any house rules or particular details about your DM or the other characters in the game?

Nope. Our DM pretty much goes RAW. Though I doubt he'd be fine with obvious exploits like infinite wish loops, or infinite damage.
   
What specifically you are looking for help with?

Builds (including alternate class features to take, feats to take, what levels I should take something to be optimal, items I need)

I feel I should also mention that our DM uses a "roll for stats" method, but he has several failsafes to prevent pathetically low stats, or stats that make your character concept impossible from the start.

[Solo]

I advise you not to be too optimistic.

That being said, it depends entirely on what kind of enemy you are going against. If you fight someone who thinks Fireball is the greatest spell ever, then you will have less trouble than if you fight a Focused Specialist Transmuter, for example.

[ConBrio]

I advise you not to be too optimistic.

That being said, it depends entirely on what kind of enemy you are going against. If you fight someone who thinks Fireball is the greatest spell ever, then you will have less trouble than if you fight a Focused Specialist Transmuter, for example.

Our group is rather low OP, so I don't expect anything like a Focused Transmuter. Though they are smart enough to realize Fireball isn't really all that amazing.

And since you said not to be optimistic, should I just go for a regular assassin and ditch the mage hunter aspect?

[altpersona]

lets take a moment to look at your targets


two kinds of mages (casters)

those who can be killed, and thus deserve to meet darwin.

those who are actual mages.

______________________________

for actual mages, forget it. you'll never see them. they will see you. the only way to win is not to fight.

for the others the first rule is : dont talk about fight club the laws of germany act first (win init or get surprise)

after that tactics vary a little bit.

either way you have one or two rounds to win, depending on how lazy the magy is.

i dont know they have been ported over yet be we used to have some good material on beating casters.

most of the good material is disguised as "how to's" for casters.

once you know their tricks, you know what to expect and how to win.

[Solo]

I advise you not to be too optimistic.

That being said, it depends entirely on what kind of enemy you are going against. If you fight someone who thinks Fireball is the greatest spell ever, then you will have less trouble than if you fight a Focused Specialist Transmuter, for example.

Our group is rather low OP, so I don't expect anything like a Focused Transmuter. Though they are smart enough to realize Fireball isn't really all that amazing.

And since you said not to be optimistic, should I just go for a regular assassin and ditch the mage hunter aspect?

Mage Hunting generally requires the Mage Slayer feats, but those work best with reach weapons and things assassins don't normally carry, so...

[X-Codes]

Vanilla assassins aren't good for assassinating much more than commoners.  The key is pretty much always going first, so you want the Vecna Blooded template and that affiliation that lets you negate a creature's ability.

[carnivore]

what level are you starting at?


Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Swordsage 2 ... could be a nice start

Alternative Class Features:
Rogue: Simple variant: lose Sneak Attack, Gain Fighter Bonus feats as Fighter
Rogue: Poison Use: lose Trapfinding,Gain Poison Use
Ranger: Trapfinding Variant: Lose Track, Gain Trapfinding
Ranger: Arcane Hunter: Arcane Spell casters as Favored Enemy

great Saves
great Skills
great Class Abilities

 

[Halinn]

what level are you starting at?


Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Swordsage 2 ... could be a nice start

Alternative Class Features:
Rogue: Simple variant: lose Sneak Attack, Gain Fighter Bonus feats as Fighter
Ranger: Trapfinding Variant: Lose Track, Gain Trapfinding
Ranger: Arcane Hunter: Arcane Spell casters as Favored Enemy

Why bother losing track to gain trapfinding when you have levels in rogue?

[radionausea]

Be a mage of one kind or another yourself. 

Whisper Gnome Spellthief1/Focused Conjurer4or5/Unseen Seer10/Arcane Trickster4or5

Feats:
Silencing Strike
Invisible Spell
Practiced Spellcaster
Master Spellthief

and buy a rod of Maximise spell and hit them with ray of stupidity.  If you take the Master of Poisons feat you get poison use and can apply poison as a swift action. You get a lot of skills and your divination spells get a CL boost so you can find the mages to kill them.  Your sneak attacks will potential silence them and steal their spells.

Its not exactly the height of optimisation but it will do what you're asking for.

Another option is to go:

Binder1/Focused Conjurer1/Anima Mage10/Unseen Seer8  and bind Malphas and Andromalius for more sneak attack and sudden strike than you know what to do with.  This will be more more effective and versatile with the binder abilities on top of the wizard levels.  (free item creation feats, summoning etc)

[ConBrio]

Vanilla assassins aren't good for assassinating much more than commoners.  The key is pretty much always going first, so you want the Vecna Blooded template and that affiliation that lets you negate a creature's ability.

Oh I wasn't planning on vanilla assassin really. I just want a character that can assassinate. Infiltrate, stealth, poison, etc...

what level are you starting at?


Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Swordsage 2 ... could be a nice start

Alternative Class Features:
Rogue: Simple variant: lose Sneak Attack, Gain Fighter Bonus feats as Fighter
Ranger: Trapfinding Variant: Lose Track, Gain Trapfinding
Ranger: Arcane Hunter: Arcane Spell casters as Favored Enemy

great Saves
great Skills
great Class Abilities

 

Level 1 starting point sadly.

[Mooncrow]

Be a mage of one kind or another yourself. 

Whisper Gnome Spellthief1/Focused Conjurer4or5/Unseen Seer10/Arcane Trickster4or5

Feats:
Silencing Strike
Invisible Spell
Practiced Spellcaster
Master Spellthief

and buy a rod of Maximise spell and hit them with ray of stupidity.  If you take the Master of Poisons feat you get poison use and can apply poison as a swift action. You get a lot of skills and your divination spells get a CL boost so you can find the mages to kill them.  Your sneak attacks will potential silence them and steal their spells.

Its not exactly the height of optimisation but it will do what you're asking for.

Another option is to go:

Binder1/Focused Conjurer1/Anima Mage10/Unseen Seer8  and bind Malphas and Andromalius for more sneak attack and sudden strike than you know what to do with.  This will be more more effective and versatile with the binder abilities on top of the wizard levels.  (free item creation feats, summoning etc)

This, really.  The only really effective mage slayers are other casters. 

[ConBrio]

This, really.  The only really effective mage slayers are other casters.

If that is the case then I'd rather just be a regular assassin, and not focus on mage killing ability.

[carnivore]

if you take the Build I just posted ... and start out like this:

Human

Attributes: 32pt buy

10 Str
14 Dex
14 Con
14 Int
14 Wis
14 Cha

Build Progression:
Rogue 1 .... Wandstrike/Education(Human bonus)/Improved Initiative(Fighter bonus)
some of these feats are for the future levels .... but you should have adequate Skills initially(44 skill points.)

Rogue 2 .... Weapon Finnesse(Fighter bonus)
boost to BAB, and even more for Melee with Weapon Finnesse, and Evasion

Ranger 1 .... Knowledge Devotion
boost to HP,Saves, Combat ability vs Arcanist, boost to all combat .... If you use a Wand of Colorspray ... you get a great Melee Touch Attack(Wandstrike) that should easily deal with casters of equivalent ECL

Ranger 2 .... TWF(Ranger bonus)
boost to saves,HP and more attacks, attribute increase to Dex

Swordsage 1
major boost to Saves ... lots of useful Martial Manuvers

Swordsage 2 ... Mageslayer
boost to saves, and AC, and pick manuvers @Initiator lvl 4(2nd lvl Manuvers)

all in all a decent approach

 

[Noliar]

There is a difference between being a mage slayer and an assassin who targets mages. A mage slayer has to get past the defenses of a mage who is expecting trouble, he might even be expected to get past the defenses of a mage when tactical combat has started and the mage knows he's a prime target and is actively looking for the mage slayer to kill him first. You don't want to do that, fighting mages is a mugs game unless you are a better magic user. You want to murder mages.
To do this you need to find where the mage thinks he's safe, when his alertness is low and his layers of magical defense are at the lowest his paranoia will permit. And when you approach you must present nothing he recognises as a threat - it is much easier to appear harmless and be allowed close than to try and sneak up. No visible weapons, no overwhelming bulk or incredible grace and especially no magic. Mages can detect magic and they will assess anyone with it for threat potential because they know what they can do with it. Even someone they expect might have magic items is going to draw extra attention so your infiltration role should be someone whose lack of magic is expected. Whores and servants are useful roles.
So, you obtain a surprise round with social engineering and you really, really want to put him down before he can react - sneak attack and iajutsu focus and virulent poison are all helpful here and the mage slayer line of feats to make sure  that all important first attack hits. If he doesn't go down immediately grab and keep stabbing because if you run you'll get zapped in the back but in his face you might stop him casting (especially with mage slayer). I like hollow glass daggers designed to shed barbs in the wound and filled with green slime - have an associate hit you with a low damage AoE energy spell as you run to remove contamination.

[Solo]

So you should be trying to... sleep with him?

[Noliar]

So you should be trying to... sleep with him?

Absolutely, if he's trying to maximize skin contact that's most of his defenses set aside. Bonus points for privacy and not in his own bedroom (where he probably has defenses built in).

[X-Codes]

So you should be trying to... sleep with him?

Absolutely, if he's trying to maximize skin contact that's most of his defenses set aside. Bonus points for privacy and not in his own bedroom (where he probably has defenses built in).

I think a more common tactic would be to have someone else attack the guy first.  Trigger his contingencies, dispel his buffs, and basically force the Wizard to use his action economy fighting him instead of detecting you.  Crafted Contingencies and tinfoil hats take time to re-create, giving you an opportunity to strike while the other wizard's defenses are down (unless he's a truly cowardly Wizard and teleports away).

[ConBrio]

So you should be trying to... sleep with him?

Absolutely, if he's trying to maximize skin contact that's most of his defenses set aside. Bonus points for privacy and not in his own bedroom (where he probably has defenses built in).

So what's the most effective build for this kind of tactic?

[Maat Mons]

Changeling (Eberron Campaign Setting) lets you physically change your body to disguise yourself.  Certain divinations can still reveal you.  Someone already mentioned Vecna-blooded (Monster Manual IV, page 64).  You'll have to wait for Vecna-blooded, but being immune to divination won't be necessary right off. 

[ConBrio]

Changeling (Eberron Campaign Setting) lets you physically change your body to disguise yourself.  Certain divinations can still reveal you.  Someone already mentioned Vecna-blooded (Monster Manual IV, page 64).  You'll have to wait for Vecna-blooded, but being immune to divination won't be necessary right off.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to take something from Monster Manual. Aren't those abilities supposed to be exclusively for monsters?