Pathfinder tier system

[StreamOfTheSky]

Human Oracle w/ Racial Heritage and Fast Learner can get 2 spells known bonus each level, though.  AND proceed to cheese paragon surge as mentioned above.

Kinda feat-heavy [racial heritage, fast learner, skill focus (needed for EH), and Eldritch Heritage], but totally worth it.

[juton]

Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.

I don't think an Oracle can use fast learner to get 2 extra spells a level. Actually the way they word means you can either get a) +1 hit point, +1 skill point or b) an extra spell per level. Meaning Fast Learner is of very limited appeal.

[radionausea]

It's the combination of Racial Heritage and Fast Learner that's useful.  Human offers an extra spell and so does Half-Elf. The Oracle is choosing the 'alternate racial reward' from two different sources.

[juton]

It says you may choose 'an alternate class reward', which sounds to me like you can't choose more than one. You can choose extra spell from Human or extra spell Half-Elf but not both. In theory by just being a Half Orc you could choose Human favoured class rewards because you count as Human, but there is a ruling that shoots that down.

[Halinn]

It says you may choose 'an alternate class reward', which sounds to me like you can't choose more than one. You can choose extra spell from Human or extra spell Half-Elf but not both. In theory by just being a Half Orc you could choose Human favoured class rewards because you count as Human, but there is a ruling that shoots that down.

It could be interpreted as such, but given that there's a valid interpretation of the feat that leaves it doing something in the case you want one of the racial class bonuses, that should be chosen to avoid having another PF feat doing nothing.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It says you may choose 'an alternate class reward', which sounds to me like you can't choose more than one. You can choose extra spell from Human or extra spell Half-Elf but not both. In theory by just being a Half Orc you could choose Human favoured class rewards because you count as Human, but there is a ruling that shoots that down.

Can you link to that ruling?  I was wondering about that in general.

And taking a feat to specifically ALSO count as X race is not quite the same as being a Half-Race...maybe.  I don't know.  Maybe the feat's pointless.  Seems like the only "benefit" of counting as another race is being vulnerable to more anti-X race weapons/attacks/bonuses.  I've seen a lot of paizils claim Half-Orcs can't take Scarred Witch Doctor (Orc only Witch archetype), for example.

[juton]

No problem.

Can a half-elf or half-orc select racial favored class options from the human entry in the Advanced Player's Guide (page 23)?

No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial favored class options do not count as an effect.

You can view the ruling here.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I can't honestly say that the dumbest rule I've ever heard from Pathfinder...

EDIT: Proves what I figured, though.  To them, clearly, "effect" = "shit that happens to you."  Of which, the  rules provide for far more examples of bad shit happening to a character than good shit.  So the dual blooded thing is basically just Blessed With Suck, a penalty disguised as a benefit.  Nice!

[ImperatorK]

It's probably because they planned to create Favored Class options specifically for them and didn't want them to steal other races thunder. Or they just wanted for each race to have their own exclusive class options.

[juton]

It's probably because they planned to create Favored Class options specifically for them and didn't want them to steal other races thunder. Or they just wanted for each race to have their own exclusive class options.

I find that when DMs/Devs understand that things can be unbalanced, but don't understand why things can be unbalanced they are really quick to nerf everything possible. Just in case. I think this is what we have here.

[Power]

I'd say the Magician Bard is at least Tier 2. He can take spells from any arcane caster's list like a built-in Samsaran Mystic Past Life, only you don't have to take all the spells from the same arcane class (and you can't just pick all high level spells). This also means he has access to Paragon Surge (along with Surge Imp. Eldritch Heritage Arcane tricks).

A Sandman Bard can easily go up tiers by having allied casters intentionally fail saving rolls so the bard can borrow their spells. (Spells stolen by a Sandman are not "used up" for the original caster when the bard is finished with them.) For a bonus, the Sandman can make like a divine caster this way. Paladin or Ranger spells, anyone?

A regular Bard can also gain Paragon Surge and a few other spells through Improved Eldritch Heritage - Arcane.

There is also the Bard's traditional nuke: Glibness. I reckon Glibness's power as a campaign-wrecking ball is rather underestimated. Granted, Glibness is only +20 in PF and Bluff can no longer do Suggestions, but +20 bluff on a bard is enough and you don't need suggestion when you can make them believe everything you want them to believe anyway. All you need to do to go crazy with Glibness is have good charisma (Bard), high ranks in bluff (Again - Bard), and the willingness to activate Glibness and lie your way through everything. Even Zone of Truth effects get ruined by Glibness thanks to new PF text.

Also, are we sure that a Samsaran's Mystic Past Life creates a tier zero instead of an even higher tier 1?

[Power]

Could someone explain to me what makes the Summoner Tier 2? It has a good spell list, but what "nukes" does the summoner have that give it campaign-smashing power? Am I correct in understanding that Gate is the only reason Summoner is marked Tier 2?

[Gazzien]

Could someone explain to me what makes the Summoner Tier 2? It has a good spell list, but what "nukes" does the summoner have that give it campaign-smashing power? Am I correct in understanding that Gate is the only reason Summoner is marked Tier 2?

The Eidolon (especially if you're a Synestheist) is ridiculously strong, as well. Immunity to all five types of energy at level 7. I think? That might not be enough, but it's why it's so powerful at my table...

[ImperatorK]

Eidolon is very strong, summons give access to many options, some good spells that are 7th and above level are 6th level on his list (and he gains 6th lvl spells at 16th).

[Power]

Thing is, a lot of that stuff feels more like a high tier 3 than a tier 2.

Tier 2's and higher are defined by their ability to break campaigns, unless I'm mistaken? How does the Summoner do that? I'm only seeing Binding/Gate, really.

[ImperatorK]

That's enough, but there's also Dominate Monster, Mass Charm Monster, Summon Monster VIII-IX, Create Demiplane, Greater Teleport, Simulacrum, Plane Shift. Maybe more, I'm no Summoner or spell specialist.

[linklord231]

Planar Binding/Gate is enough to bump them from high 3 to low 2.  It's probably not enough to make a class Tier 2 all on its own though - after all, the 3.5 Healer and Truenamer both get Gate.

[ImperatorK]

Planar Binding/Gate is enough to bump them from high 3 to low 2.  It's probably not enough to make a class Tier 2 all on its own though - after all, the 3.5 Healer and Truenamer both get Gate.

But nothing else of any particular note.

[Power]

That's enough, but there's also Dominate Monster, Mass Charm Monster, Summon Monster VIII-IX, Create Demiplane, Greater Teleport, Simulacrum, Plane Shift. Maybe more, I'm no Summoner or spell specialist.

In that case though, I would include the Magician Bard as Tier 2 since he can easily get in on a number of those. Regular Bards have Mass Charm Monster too.

Actually, if Binding is enough, possibly any Bard, considering the Legato Piece on the Infernal Bargain masterpiece is probably the most broken Planar Binding variant out there. It summons them using Planar Ally mechanics, but negotiates using a Planar Binding-style opposed charisma check, which most Bards will ace. The result is a bargain that cannot end early like binding and does not require you to pay anything like planar ally, so you could slowly bargain your way into a giant army of glabrezus or something. Possibly a permanent army at that.

Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't consider Glibness enough of a campaign-buster for the bard class. What did it fall short on?

Planar Binding/Gate is enough to bump them from high 3 to low 2.  It's probably not enough to make a class Tier 2 all on its own though - after all, the 3.5 Healer and Truenamer both get Gate.

Combining one very strong, late-game point with a lot of weak stuff does not make an extraordinary package, no.

[ImperatorK]

In that case though, I would include the Magician Bard as Tier 2 since he can easily get in on a number of those.

I wasn't looking at individual archetypes back then. Don't know if I should.

Regular Bards have Mass Charm Monster too.

So?

Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't consider Glibness enough of a campaign-buster for the bard class. What did it fall short on?

It's good, but not campaign shattering.