Pathfinder tier system

[Squirel_Dude]

I think you could argue that Tier 3 has shrunk quite a bit.  Most of the Tier 3 classes from 3.5 don't exist in PF, and they haven't added as many new classes to replace them.

Perhaps. I'm not sure whether or not it's really shrunk there. Probably in terms of options, but I'm not sure whether or not it's shrunk in terms of % of classes represented. 3, and maybe 4 new classes probably fit in there quite easily. Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus, and maybe the Summoner could all be put into tier 3.

It should also be said that tier 3 grew at the end of 3.5, when they started to better understand the system, and were starting to work on ideas for 4e, where they had a greater stress on class balance.

[Power]

Paladin is Tier 3 with Paragon Surge.

The Paladin might not get Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane to work for Sorceror spells, but he can Paragon Surge into Unsanctioned Knowledge for inquisitor/cleric/bard spells with 15min prep.

Aside from that, arbitrarily having whichever feat the Paladin might need and qualifies for at hand will still push it into Tier 3.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Paladin is Tier 3 with Paragon Surge.

The Paladin might not get Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane to work for Sorceror spells, but he can Paragon Surge into Unsanctioned Knowledge for inquisitor/cleric/bard spells with 15min prep.

Aside from that, arbitrarily having whichever feat the Paladin might need and qualifies for at hand will still push it into Tier 3.

I don't think just getting feats on demand pushes it into tier 3 necessarily.  As for unsanctioned knowledge, the Paragon Surge spell itself only lasts min/level (though you could extend it), which makes using it for spell-learning a very restricted and limited uses option for a Paladin.  It also means he can't actually *take* Unsanctioned Knowledge in order to PS for it, which is painful.  Since it's one of the best Paladin feats.  Compare with Sorcerer (no pain) or Oracle (no pain; getting sorc/wiz spells requires getting a feat you'd want anyway and not picking up its follow-on feat that's hardly helpful to you anyway), who have far more spell slots and levels to play with and instantly get access to the new spells...  If Paragon Surge jumps Paladin up to tier 3, then it would be catapulting Sorc and Oracle into Tier 0 / God Tier territory.  Which may be a reasonable statement...

[Squirel_Dude]

I'd actually argue that it does push the Oracle into tier 0, or makes it bump the ceiling of tier 1 as the best class in the game. It's not as versatile as wizard at arcane casting, unless it wants to be at that moment. It's not as versatile as the cleric at divine casting, unless it wants to be at that moment. It's not as strong in melee as the Paladin, unless it wants to be at that moment.

I'm not sure the Oracle is the most powerful class in the game, but it's not by much. However, I think that with Paragon surge it becomes the most versatile class in the game, and it's no longer close. At it's desire the Oracle can gain access to to spell lists, and if tired of the fighter flailing around go punch and enemy in the face, or shoot them with a bow or do whatever else it wants.

[Power]

Paladin is Tier 3 with Paragon Surge.

The Paladin might not get Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane to work for Sorceror spells, but he can Paragon Surge into Unsanctioned Knowledge for inquisitor/cleric/bard spells with 15min prep.

Aside from that, arbitrarily having whichever feat the Paladin might need and qualifies for at hand will still push it into Tier 3.

I don't think just getting feats on demand pushes it into tier 3 necessarily.  As for unsanctioned knowledge, the Paragon Surge spell itself only lasts min/level (though you could extend it), which makes using it for spell-learning a very restricted and limited uses option for a Paladin.  It also means he can't actually *take* Unsanctioned Knowledge in order to PS for it, which is painful.  Since it's one of the best Paladin feats.  Compare with Sorcerer (no pain) or Oracle (no pain; getting sorc/wiz spells requires getting a feat you'd want anyway and not picking up its follow-on feat that's hardly helpful to you anyway), who have far more spell slots and levels to play with and instantly get access to the new spells...  If Paragon Surge jumps Paladin up to tier 3, then it would be catapulting Sorc and Oracle into Tier 0 / God Tier territory.  Which may be a reasonable statement...

I think you're neglecting the fact that the Paladin is already on top of the Tier 4 list. Paragon Surge might not necessarily pump any Tier 4 into an instant Tier 3, but Paladins are high enough for it to push them over the edge. Tier 3 vs Tier 4:

• Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.  Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
• Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

PF Paladins already make a strong argument for being Tier 3 without Paragon Surge: They make perfectly good combatants and can still be useful as party faces, weak casters, etc. If they're not Tier 3 as is, Paragon Surge is enough to put them there by giving them any feat they need to be useful for the occasion.

Additionally, the new Ultimate Campaign rules add a Retraining mechanic to retrain everything (Class levels, archetypes, feats, spells, skill points, etc.), so you can take Unsanctioned Knowledge and later retrain out of it when you want to Paragon Surge it.

I'd actually argue that it does push the Oracle into tier 0, or makes it bump the ceiling of tier 1 as the best class in the game. It's not as versatile as wizard at arcane casting, unless it wants to be at that moment. It's not as versatile as the cleric at divine casting, unless it wants to be at that moment. It's not as strong in melee as the Paladin, unless it wants to be at that moment.

I'm not sure the Oracle is the most powerful class in the game, but it's not by much. However, I think that with Paragon surge it becomes the most versatile class in the game, and it's no longer close. At it's desire the Oracle can gain access to to spell lists, and if tired of the fighter flailing around go punch and enemy in the face, or shoot them with a bow or do whatever else it wants.

Depends on your definition of Tier 0. If Tier 0 is "insanity and versatility above and beyond regular Tier 1s" then the Oracle probably belongs. If your Tier 0 is "goes infinite and does everything - like Pun-Pun" then no.

Given the former, the Oracle probably is Tier 0 with Paragon Surge. Complete access to the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists as a spontaneous caster with the cost of a standard action + 3rd level spell slot is pretty much above Tier 1. And then there is the usual CODzilla madness. And then there is Bestow Grace of the Champion to turn your Oracle into a Paladin complete with crazy saving throws, detect evil, smite evil, lay on hands, etc. (A Cleric can do it too, but Clerics dump Charisma.) And then there are the Mystery (and curse) powers.

Aside from that, Human Sorcerers (no Paragon Surge) are probably Tier 1 between the huge spell list and Mnemonic Vestment to 1/day cast any class spell out of a spellbook. Shadow Evocation/Conjuration, Summon Monster, (Limited) Wish, and Planar Binding keep a lot of obscure options open too.

[Power]

Magus seems like a Tier 4 or even 5. His spell list sucks. This character appears to be dedicated to playing as a fighter and/or blaster wizard (the worst kind of wizard).

• As a Fighter, he's only got 3/4 BAB and - if using spell combat: a -2 attack penalty, one-handed fighting (which sucks), a voluntary extra penalty to improve concentration for the spell, and you get no bonus attack from Haste (but if you cast a melee touch attack, you can get an extra attack which will also land that spell).
• As a Wizard, well... he gets 6 spell levels, low DC's from the weak spell levels, mostly blasting or attack spells, few to none utility spells, and - if using spell combat: casting inside your opponent's threatened range (unless taking 5foot steps or using a reach weapon), and cannot wield metamagic rods (unless using Prehensile Hair hex as hexcrafter). The Magus spell list is so bad you could actually convince a GM to let you take Samsaran Mystic Past Life. Frankly, unless he gets the right hexes with hexcrafter, gets a familiar and tweaks it, or really focuses on Spell Blending arcana, his utility is extremely minimal for a caster.

His Arcane Pool generally does not so much bring his level up as much as it tries to compensate for the rampant failure he already possesses. And then there is the fun question of how you intend to split your feats/arcana/gold between upping your weapon (which needs help) & upping your spells (which also need help). There are tricks you can pull with a Magus, but they mostly seem to pull the Magus up to a Tier 4, not a Tier 3.

[veekie]

Clear T4 I think, if you managed to ignore the existence of spell combat it is quite possible to build a functioning and reasonably effective Magus, provided you are fine with being comparable to Fighter.

[Power]

Clear T4 I think, if you managed to ignore the existence of spell combat it is quite possible to build a functioning and reasonably effective Magus, provided you are fine with being comparable to Fighter.

Ignoring Spell Combat is often a sound decision for building a Magus. That ability is frequently bait to shoot yourself multiple times in the foot. But Tier lists are pretty much built around the assumption you're playing "normally" and "unoptimized". Most players will just take Spell Combat and run with it. At that rate, he's a clear Tier 5: "so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything." Without Spell Combat, when focusing properly on a decent weapon, he might become a Tier 4.

We might as well put Magus (No Spell Combat) at Tier 4 and Magus (Spell Combat) at Tier 5.

And speaking of the Fighter, I'm pretty sure Fighters are a Tier 5 too. What happened between 3.5 and PF that made Fighters go up a tier?

[veekie]

Numbers mostly. Monster numbers in general got lower and more clustered compared to 3.5, though outliers still exist. Weapons training goes on top of Power Attack/Deadly Aim to do more damage per hit, which, when it all adds up, creams monsters more or less as fast as a paladin, if with less style. And a minor but related point, you basically won't be able to do much in the way of combat maneuvers without the sheer quantity of feats they got, which is kind of a backhanded way to improve the fighter by weakening every other martial class.

They're solid, if boring.

[Power]

I dunno...

Feats are inferior to good class features. Rarely can one throw a bucket of feats at an enemy unless they are very strong feats...

... but strong feats can be taken by any other character as well. -Solo
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Note that the Fighter is actually quite high in Tier 5, bordering on Tier 4.  But one of the main markers of the low tiers is a lack of flexibility.  An archer Fighter is quite good as a damage dealer... not as good as an equivalently optimized Barbarian Charger, but still quite effective.  However, that's just about all he is.  His class makes him good at dealing damage with arrows, but when the situation calls for something else (i.e. there's not a clear shot, or it's not a combat situation) his class offers him critically few options.  The same is true of most other kinds of Fighter... though the class itself can make many builds, any one build is generally either inflexible (due to specializing in just one trick) or ineffective (due to not specializing in that one trick).

A further note about the Fighter is that a lot of his tricks (shooting, charging, tripping) can be accomplished by about level 6-8.  That's great when you get your first trick, but if you try to diversify (for example, adding Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack to an archer build) you're adding another trick that would be good at level 6-8... but now it's level 16.  Having two level 6-8 tricks at level 16 is as bad as a caster getting twice as many 4th level spells at 16.  It's not nearly as good as getting level appropriate abilities (in that metaphore, 8th level spells). -JaronK

Pros: One of the best non magical damage dealing classes, especially with regards to archery.  Though it requires a Barbarian dip to shine as a charger, their feats are useful for that too.  Fighters make excellent short dips for many non magic builds.  Fighters can also make very effective trippers, though Fighters can't really be effective at all of these at once (Fighters in general can be good trippers, chargers, and archers, but no one Fighter can be great at all of those).  Note that the Zhentarium Fighter is clearly Tier 4, mostly due to Imperious Command. -JaronK

The fighter still seems to suffer from "anything he can do, another class can too, but the fighter is less versatile and scales worse." BTW: The Paladin could outdo a Fighter's weapon training with just a Weapon Bond for his Divine Bond. He could also just cast a buff, like Divine Favor.

At the end of the day, though, tier lists are for shits & giggles, since it really depends on the person playing them, the party composition, the GM, and the setting.

[Squirel_Dude]

I'm going to disagree with the quality of the Magus spell list being poor. More specifically. I don't see what makes it so vile or forces him to be a blaster wizard. Are there a ton of damage spells? Yes. But that's not all he has. In fact, he's got a great list to buff himself and debuff enemies as a gish fighter.

Level 1: Grease, Enlarge Person, Silent Image, Vanish, Color Spray, Shield, Obscurring Mist, Magic Weapon, ray of enfeeblement
Level 2: Alter Self, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Web, Pyrotechnics, Minor Image
Level 3: Displacement, Fly, Haste, Slow, Greater Magic Weapon, Major Image, X Shape I, Gaseous Form
Level 4: Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, X Shape II, X Form I
Etc.

And just because Polymorph is not what it used to be (totally broken) doesn't mean it still isn't useful. It still allows your character to gain abilities like tremorsense, blindsense, tiny size, huge size, flight, and immunity to critical hits. This lets a Magus at least have the option to be able to solve problems a fighter can't.

I think you're forcing the class to overspecialize when it doesn't have to. It would be like talking about he Bard as only a melee combatant or only a spellcaster or only a party buffer. Certainly the Magus or Bard can focus in those areas, but it's not like they have to give up up their other options.

[veekie]

On the fighter, the Weapon Specialization tree, while dull, makes up the gap quite handily. Between your feats from HD and Fighter bonus feats, you'd be spending your first 8 levels sinking half of them into damage improvements(Power Attack, Weapon Specialization), and the half into your preferred combat style(TWF, Reach, Archery, or your preferred combat maneuver). Other martial classes are pretty much going to have zero free feats, they'd be only able to invest in their fighting style even before Fighter Level prereqs. Again, dull, but effective enough.

The Magus spell list is...adequate for it's job, not stellar, but usable.

[Power]

I'm going to disagree with the quality of the Magus spell list being poor. More specifically. I don't see what makes it so vile or forces him to be a blaster wizard. Are there a ton of damage spells? Yes. But that's not all he has. In fact, he's got a great list to buff himself and debuff enemies as a gish fighter.

And just because Polymorph is not what it used to be (totally broken) doesn't mean it still isn't useful. It still allows your character to gain abilities like tremorsense, blindsense, tiny size, huge size, flight, and immunity to critical hits. This lets a Magus at least have the option to be able to solve problems a fighter can't.

Self-buff spells aren't bad spells. They just aren't particularly utility or battlefield control spells. You can glean some utility out of it, to be sure. The problem is that the Magus's focus is usually excessively narrow.

I think you're forcing the class to overspecialize when it doesn't have to. It would be like talking about he Bard as only a melee combatant or only a spellcaster or only a party buffer. Certainly the Magus or Bard can focus in those areas, but it's not like they have to give up up their other options.

I'd rather say that using Spell Combat would be forcing the Magus to spread itself thin. Having options is good, but trying to diversify will generally ruin you. It's not like I'm saying a Magus should only cast or only fight. I'm saying a Magus should really only bother improving one of them or he's going to spread himself thin.

On the fighter, the Weapon Specialization tree, while dull, makes up the gap quite handily. Between your feats from HD and Fighter bonus feats, you'd be spending your first 8 levels sinking half of them into damage improvements(Power Attack, Weapon Specialization), and the half into your preferred combat style(TWF, Reach, Archery, or your preferred combat maneuver). Other martial classes are pretty much going to have zero free feats, they'd be only able to invest in their fighting style even before Fighter Level prereqs. Again, dull, but effective enough.

The issue isn't and wasn't that Fighters are ineffective. Sure, he's effective. The issue is that the Fighter is inflexible and frequently another martial class can do what you do, but does it better and/or has more options.

The Magus spell list is...adequate for it's job, not stellar, but usable.

Usable, yes, but the Magus is the red-headed stepchild of arcane casters by far.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Depends how you classify Alchemists, they're far more reddish-headed.  When you get down deep into the details, you'd be amazed at how tremendously screwed over they get for not technically counting as "spellcasters" who cast "spells."

Considering how the entirety of Pathfinder is a giant love letter to spell casters and all, being left out of the party completely...kind of sucks, a lot.  And the fact that nearly all of the rules regarding how extracts work come from a mere 2-3 sentences of the multi-faceted Alchemy feature is the icing on the cake.  Remember, one of the biggest strength of spells is how meticulously spelled out everything is (most of the time).  The DM literally has to houserule his game, and massively so, to screw you out of things.  Instead of it all coming down to his "interpretation" due to a dearth of explicit text.

[veekie]

The issue isn't and wasn't that Fighters are ineffective. Sure, he's effective. The issue is that the Fighter is inflexible and frequently another martial class can do what you do, but does it better and/or has more options.

But, flexibility isn't a requirement to be T4. They manage to kick enough ass as martials to qualify.

[Power]

Depends how you classify Alchemists, they're far more reddish-headed.  When you get down deep into the details, you'd be amazed at how tremendously screwed over they get for not technically counting as "spellcasters" who cast "spells."

Considering how the entirety of Pathfinder is a giant love letter to spell casters and all, being left out of the party completely...kind of sucks, a lot.  And the fact that nearly all of the rules regarding how extracts work come from a mere 2-3 sentences of the multi-faceted Alchemy feature is the icing on the cake.  Remember, one of the biggest strength of spells is how meticulously spelled out everything is (most of the time).  The DM literally has to houserule his game, and massively so, to screw you out of things.  Instead of it all coming down to his "interpretation" due to a dearth of explicit text.

I think the sane way to treat alchemists is to just consider them "alchemical casters" instead of divine/arcane casters. At any rate, even with these problems, the Alchemist actually contributes a lot more utility than the Magus.

The issue isn't and wasn't that Fighters are ineffective. Sure, he's effective. The issue is that the Fighter is inflexible and frequently another martial class can do what you do, but does it better and/or has more options.

But, flexibility isn't a requirement to be T4. They manage to kick enough ass as martials to qualify.

Either you're flexible or you're on top in your niche. Fighters get massive competition in their niche and they're not flexible. Which means that when picking the Fighter, while viable, you can still do better by playing another martial character. The original reasons for marking the Fighter as a Tier 5 (quoted above) still stand.

[Hallack]

I'd have to say that in my experience Magus is a solid Tier 3 class.  Yes, it suffers from the "nickle & dime" method of class abilities much like the Inquisitor but it ends up being a fairly solid collection of abilities.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.  Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Even before looking at spike damage from delivering spells a Magus does just fine.  He has access to plenty of decent defensive and offensive combat enhancement spells and even some that help with control. 

His spell list even includes plenty of the staples that would be taken if you were playing a Sorcerer.  No, he isn't going to be a god wizard but then if you are looking for one then Magus is simply the wrong class. 

His Melee & magics, particularly when combined, do a pretty good job of allowing him to contribute in and out of combat as well as meet a very diverse sort of challenges. 

Decent Combat: Check (made even better by spells)
Decent Casting options: Check (Yeah, he's not a Wizard)
Decent Skills: Check (Being Int based tends to give him plenty to play with)

The Magus is pretty spot on for the "capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area" Clause of Tier 3 I think.

[Power]

I'd sooner put that under "capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining" which is Tier 4. Still, a Magus focusing on spell combat is Tier 5 in my book unless that player really knows what they're doing. A very well-played Magus can certainly be a Tier 3, possibly even a Tier 2, but that's assuming the sort of highly proficient player that the Tier list doesn't try to address.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why is spell combat so bad to you?

It means you can make a full attack AND cast a spell in the same round.  That's pretty nice action economy, it's basically a gimpier version of the summoner + eidolon super combo.

The -2 to hit is worth it, and concentration checks are still as easy as in 3E (except for in a grapple, those DCs are just insane) if you put any effort at all towards it.

If you do choose to go DPR, it's a full attack plus an extra attack plus an offensive spell.  Also quite good.  It doesn't even HAVE to be DPR to be good.  You hit level 5 and can swift action make your scimitar keen, the frigid touch you're delivering now insta-jibs your target for the entire rest of the combat on a 15+ attack roll.

EDIT: Also, I don't know if it should be its own listing or not, but there is no way in hell a Hexcrafter Magus is below tier 3.

[Power]

Why is spell combat so bad to you?

It means you can make a full attack AND cast a spell in the same round.  That's pretty nice action economy, it's basically a gimpier version of the summoner + eidolon super combo.

The -2 to hit is worth it, and concentration checks are still as easy as in 3E (except for in a grapple, those DCs are just insane) if you put any effort at all towards it.

If you do choose to go DPR, it's a full attack plus an extra attack plus an offensive spell.  Also quite good.  It doesn't even HAVE to be DPR to be good.  You hit level 5 and can swift action make your scimitar keen, the frigid touch you're delivering now insta-jibs your target for the entire rest of the combat on a 15+ attack roll.

In exchange for using Spell Combat you are swinging a 1hander, losing out on the bonus attack from haste/quick weapons, taking a penalty on your attack roll, unable to use a rod to pump your spell, and casting inside your opponent's threatened zone. And while all of those checks might seem easy to make, you are now making a lot of these checks, so it's quite possible to do badly on one of them. You're still not close to a Summoner's Eidolon combo. If you used a 2hander you would be getting just as many attacks, without the -2 penalty, dealing much more damage per blow, and standing a much more reasonable chance of actually landing that -5 extra attack you got from your BAB.

Spell combat has its uses (especially at level 2 when you spell combat with Arcane Mark cantrip for the extra attack), but usually it's bait to shoot yourself in the foot multiple times.

EDIT: Also, I don't know if it should be its own listing or not, but there is no way in hell a Hexcrafter Magus is below tier 3.

Hexcrafter is its own listing. Hexes are damn strong.