Manuever: Sudden Leap Abuse

[Eviltedzies]

I just noticed this today and was wondering if this could be abused in any way.....

You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result. You provoke attacks of opportunity with this movement, and you must move in a straight line. As with any movement, you can attempt a Tumble check to avoid any attacks you provoke with this sudden leap. You can’t move through enemies, unless you succeed on the appropriate Tumble check.

I'd like to point out that nowhere in that description does it say the straight line has to be a horizontal one. In fact, not only could we jump straight up with this maneuver (Ignoring both the maximum vertical distance based on height and insane x4 Jump DC for standing jumps), but we could also jump at an angle so long as we moved in a straight line once we jumped.

Pythagorean Theorem just got more interesting. 

Does anyone else so the easily amusable potential of this easy to obtain boost?

[SorO_Lost]

Grats on finding Sudden Leap.

Yep it's awesome.
Yep we love it.
No I can't give any specific examples. But it's awesome for every possible reason a Swift Action ability to move can be.

Also you're not capped by your height to begin with and who said the DCs are not changed? Sudden Leap doesn't.

[oslecamo]

Sudden Leap is one of my favorite maneuvers precisely because of that, and one of the main basemarks I use for my own custom schools.

Although at the end of the day is still mundane movement. Not like you can go trough walls, and you still provoke attacks of opportunity. Pretty nice in and out of combat, but not anything close to OP.

Mind you, I've met people who claimed that this particular maneuver should work by jump rules. Despite the other tiger claw movement maneuvers specifically mention that. And that it would make a low level boost basically worthless at low levels, as you would be hard pressed to get a result big enough to do anything meaningful. Mundanes just can't catch a break.

EDIT:

Also you're not capped by your height to begin with and who said the DCs are not changed? Sudden Leap doesn't.

Precisely. Sudden Leap just tells you to roll a number and move that distance. Compare with Swooping Dragon Strike just at its side, that tells you to make a regular jump.

[linklord231]

"Move the distance determined by your check result."

Not sure how you can claim the standard DCs for Jump checks don't apply. 

The trick is to use that stance to add a 10 foot bonus to whatever your jump check result is. 

[oslecamo]

Normal jump rules: Decide how far away you want to jump, then roll against a DC determined by that.

Sudden leap: Roll a skill check, then move a distance equal to how much you rolled.

The maneuver doesn't follow the same rules as regular jumps. Sudden Leap never mentions any DCs to beat, you simply move a certain distance. It doesn't even follows the same trajectory as normal jumps.

[SorO_Lost]

Sudden leap: Roll a skill check, then move a distance equal to how much you rolled.

No, it does not say that. You seen the pattern in Jump DCs then created false pretenses from there and in turn applied them to a Maneuver you never understood.

It says "You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result". Sudden Leap does not say anything about setting the amount of distance you are to move to be equal to your d20 roll. The result of a '10' without a running start is successfully leaping up to 5ft laterally and/or 1.25 ft vertically.

linklord231 is entirely right, combine this with the Stance and a typical 1st level melee can move 20ft per use easy enough. Anything more and you hit the cap set by your Speed as Sudden Leap does not override Jump-based movement counts against your limit per round. Later on you don't need the Stance at all.

[phaedrusxy]

And there is that skill trick that also adds on another +10 feet.

Edit: Crap... it requires a Swift action also...

[snakeman830]

linklord231 is entirely right, combine this with the Stance and a typical 1st level melee can move 20ft per use easy enough. Anything more and you hit the cap set by your Speed as Sudden Leap does not override Jump-based movement counts against your limit per round. Later on you don't need the Stance at all.

Though good luck getting a 3rd level stance on a 1st level character.

[Ithamar]

linklord231 is entirely right, combine this with the Stance and a typical 1st level melee can move 20ft per use easy enough. Anything more and you hit the cap set by your Speed as Sudden Leap does not override Jump-based movement counts against your limit per round. Later on you don't need the Stance at all.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but just thought I would point out this Q&A from the FAQ:

Does the Jump check and subsequent jump made as part of the Sudden Leap boost (ToB 89) count against the
initiator’s movement as described in the Jump skill?

No. Sudden Leap is its own swift action, not part of a move action, so the movement is in addition to any you might make using other actions.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Agreed with Ithamer.  It's exactly as Soro says, except that it is its own movement, so you could jump up to your speed with sudden leap and proceed to jump again the normal way w/o it counting against.  Now, my favorite use of Sudden leap is to combine it with a 5 ft step, not sure if that's RAW-legal, but I think it is.

Gotta watch out for the "distance is halved without a running start" clause, though.  Add in needing to tumble (half speed unless you want to try for DC 25+) and it can really crimp your distance.

[SorO_Lost]

What'd you know, something I didn't know from the FAQ.
Maybe I just need more sleep, been a heck of a week month here.

On Tumble, you are only penalized for moving greater than 1/2 your Speed. And as Sudden Leap is it's own movement, the distance covered with the previous (or upcoming) Move Action won't even count against it. So a Creature with a 30ft Speed can leap 15ft without Tumble penalties.

On the 5ft Step,

As long as your movement isn’t hampered or prohibited, you can move 5 feet during a turn when you don’t take any other kind of movement.

Any movement, not necessarily a "Move Action", just any kind of movement.

[zook1shoe]

Wooo! Tina Turner has a chance for a comeback!


Tina Turner was a crazy Dune Stalker gladiator of mine, then jumped ridiculously far, and then would scream of death

[Emanresu]

Our gaming group has pretty much banned the ToB. We have decided that it was constructed to reflect pokemon pcs. That is the pcs created are cartoony, and w/ this sudden leap the transformation to Japanese anime is complete!

That being said jump sucks! Jump takes a whole lotta ranks to just jump on a table, magical items that aid jump are usually only adding a few feet at best much like the Warlocks invo Leaps N Bounds should be renamed hop n skip. I've always pictured a Monk jumping up on a 1st floor roof, showing superhuman feats of skill. But as is you would have to be 10th level just to jump a 6' fence, or run a hurdlers track.

I tried to create a pc whos fighting style was based upon jump. I took all the jumping feats, magicals, feats, whos names escape me, X2 damage when attacking from above, flying kick etc..even took snap kick. After all was said in done the Oriental Adv Blade Dancer helped the best




Acrobatics (Su): A 1st-level blade dancer gains a +10 competence bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks. At 5th level, this bonus increases to +20, and at 10th level it is +30. In addition, a blade dancer can always choose to take 10 on a Balance, Jump, or Tumble check, even when circumstances would normally prevent him from doing so.

Leap of the Clouds (Su): A blade dancer's jumping distance (vertical or horizontal) is not limited according to his height.

Fast Movement (Su): A blade dancer moves faster than normal. A Small blade dancer moves more slowly than a Medium-size blade dancer, while a ratling moves faster, as shown on the table below.
Blade Dancer   hr/> Base Speed
Level   20 ft.   30 ft.   40 ft.
1st—3rd    40 ft.    60 ft.    80 ft.
4th—6th    45 ft.    70 ft.    95 ft.
7th—9th    55 ft.    80 ft.    105 ft.
10th    60 ft.    90 ft.    120 ft.

[zook1shoe]

I dont see anything the would make the PC be Pokemon-like or anime either. But maybe that's just how you imagine things from the book. So you don't like someone jumping far, yet hurling anime fireballs from your hands is ok?

they remind me of what a monk should be able to do (setting sun), ninja (shadow hand), marshal (white raven), etc. I dont see anything wrong w a monk using leverage to hurl enemies into one another, or a ninja teleporting in a flash of shadows after delivering a fatal blow. What about Russell Crowe from the Gladiator using White Raven maneuvers to aid his gladiator buddies in the fight.

Tome of Battle is a good resource for noncasters to get something with potential options that is not just based on equipment, stealth, and fiddles.

but we can each have our own views about these things.
not all uses of jump blow chucks. The Power Attack chain uses it to great effect, and you only need minimal investment into jump.

[linklord231]

You know what's anime and overpowered? Warlocks.

[Emanresu]

I dont see anything the would make the PC be Pokemon-like or anime either. But maybe that's just how you imagine things from the book. So you don't like someone jumping far, yet hurling anime fireballs from your hands is ok?

I said, well what I meant to say was, my gaming group, including my self, dont care for the ToB. Several players likened it to making cartoons

I never said I dont like jump or dont like to jump...I said a lot of ranks in it get you the ability to jump over a curb...seems to be lackluster for the investment.



warlocks overpowered??? never thought Ide hear that

[zook1shoe]

I understand, some groups just dont like one book or mini-system. Mine is the Weapons of Legacy.

[snakeman830]

I understand, some groups just dont like one book or mini-system. Mine is the Weapons of Legacy.

To be fair, Weapons of Legacy is so open-ended and ripe for abuse that it's perfectly understandable why you wouldn't like it from a mechanical standpoint.  From a flavor standpoint it's a bunch of items that "do something kinda nifty sometimes in exchange for me taking large penalties to my main schtick.  Why would I do that"

[zook1shoe]

Yeah, I didn't like all the penalties for just a dumb weapon

[X-Codes]

I think I just had a revelation about why people have this misconception about the "fluff" of ToB being cartoony or anime or Japanese or whatever.  We've been ruined by years upon years of King Arthur movies with bad fight choreography.

If your approach to fighting in the era D&D is modeled after boils down to "I charge in and swing my _____ at it," then you will die very, very young.  There is more nuance and subtlety to a fight than that, and ToB is the first 3e sourcebook ever that actually successfully reflects that with game options that aren't complete and utter shit.

If you want to see why you need ToB in your campaign, go watch Gladiator or something.  Not that you should need a reason to watch Gladiator, but you have one, now!