Author Topic: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill  (Read 10822 times)

Offline eleazzaar

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Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« on: June 23, 2014, 05:55:18 AM »
After seeing a PC captured without hope of rescue last week, and two come very close to death this week, i was reminded of the importance of having a back-up character.  I'm currently on my 3rd character in this campaign, and if he dies my main priority will probably be building a character that's simply really hard to kill.  I thought that challenge might interest you.  Thanks in advance for your advice!  :)

Requirements:
    3.5 Only
    Not Evil
    Little or No Prepared Casting (my preference)
    No Wild-shaping.
    No Cheese
    Character Level 6 and onward
    Setting Faerun

EDIT After recent discussions with the DM, the allowed sources list is shrunk...
Allowed Sources:
Code: [Select]
CAdv Complete Adventurer
CA Complete Arcane
CC Complete Champion
CD Complete Divine
CM Complete Mage
CP Complete Psionic
CS Complete Scoundrel
CW Complete Warrior
PH2 Player’s Handbook II
SC Spell Compendium

Any Forgotten Realms Supplemental
Any other content may be allowed or not on a case-by-case basis.

Current Party Composition:
    General Wizard
    Healing/Fighting Cleric
    Barbarian
    Ranged Rogue


I've been looking at:
    Paladin 2 / Favored Soul 8 / Divine Disciple > >
  I don't know how close to the "most un-killable" that gets.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 11:12:04 AM by eleazzaar »

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2014, 06:53:24 AM »
The most unkillable I have seen has prepared casting.  Cleric with persisted channeled divine shield is pretty silly at early levels.  DR10/Evil, + fast healing 1 + Close Wounds.

Some ideas to consider:

- Mineral Warrior template is amazing for not dying, of course, works best if you are allowed to buy off the LA.

- (Elan?) Psions with Vigor and Share Pain are known to be fairly survivable.

- Sorcerers with Wings of Cover can be very survivable, especially if they can persist Ruin Delver's Fortune 3 times.

- Crusaders can be fairly survivable with that delayed damage pool and healing strikes.

- One non-magical build I have worked on before is as follows:
Dragonborn Mongrelfolk (Mineral Warrior optional) Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Stoneblessed 3/Fist of the Forest 1/Deepwarden 2/ continue with a combination of Dwarf Paragon, Binder with Improved Binding to get Dahlver Nar, and Warblade for all the concentration checks to do stuff.

Lately I have been thinking about changing the entry to Ranger 1/Dwarf Paragon 3.  loses 4 Con over the Mongrelfolk entry, but earlier entry may be worth it for some games.  Less penalty to INT is useful for skill prereqs.

Either way, Steadfast Determination as soon as possible to shore up the will save.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 07:12:57 AM by Rebel7284 »

Offline DaCraw

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 09:22:36 AM »
A Warblade dip taken at IL5 (X 8 / Warblade 1 if you're not taking any martial adept PRCs) can greatly improve your survivability by adding ablative defences.

Take Punishing Stance (stance, prereq), Moment of Perfect Mind (immediate action to replace Will save with Concentration check), Mind over Body (immediate action to replace Fort save with Concentration check), and Iron Heart Surge (standard action to remove any harmful spell, effect, or condition).

Unless you've been dipping enough to make Senor Vorpal Kickass'o jealous, your concentration check should be higher than your Will and Fort saves - and unless houseruled, you don't automatically fail a skill check on a natural one.. You can refresh all of your maneuvers as a swift action while making a full attack action or moving and taking a standard action attack, so you should never be without any of these for more than a round. In between combat encounters, you're even better off - as long as you have enough time to shake yourself off between traps, you can use your maneuver-based checks instead of saves.

You may note that I haven't included the Ref save replacement. To do so would require either a second level of Warblade (not actually a bad idea) or a feat, and it's probably not worth the investment. Warblade 1 already gives you Int Mod to Ref saves, so you shouldn't be too vulnerable there. In addition, failed Ref Saves tend to be painful rather than deadly. A failed Fort save can kill you. A failed Will save can force you to attack your party (potentially causing a TPK). A Failed Ref save can mean that you take 20d6 rather than 10d6. Woo.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2014, 10:19:28 AM »
Take DaCraw's suggestions, and make it psionic somehow (feat/race/class). Just being psionic lets you take 15 on a concentration check, even in the middle of combat, by expending your psionic focus. Then you're also one feat away from being able to recover your focus as a move action, letting you do this multiple times in a combat (but probably not more than once per round, unless you're willing to invest more resources).

Psion X/Warblade is a very nice combo because it combines several of the better options mentioned above (Vigor + Share Pain on a psicrystal, saving throw replacements, Iron Heart Surge, etc).

Get a Smoking Weapon for a constant 20% miss chance that is not illusionary (and so not bypassed by True Seeing, etc). Get a Third Eye of Clarity to one time per day negate a bunch of mental conditions. Get a Death Ward enhancement on your armor/shield to negate death/negative levels once per day.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 10:21:11 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline eleazzaar

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2014, 11:18:58 AM »
I think i would rather enjoy a Tome of Battle Class, but those and Tome of Magic aren't alowed in the campaign.

Rebel7284: I expect the DM would disallow dragon born. (basically human looking races only)  Does that mongrel folk build work without it?

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2014, 12:11:03 PM »
I think i would rather enjoy a Tome of Battle Class, but those and Tome of Magic aren't alowed in the campaign.

Rebel7284: I expect the DM would disallow dragon born. (basically human looking races only)  Does that mongrel folk build work without it?

Dragonborn is nice (MORE CON! and some extra senses OR a backup breath weapon) but it is totally non-essential.  You can see if your DM approves of the Arctic Template - Dragon Mag 306 for +2 Con, -2 Cha.  As I recall, it mentions using it to customize PHB races, but doesn't explicitly limit it to those.

One thing I like AND hate about that build is that it can go in so many directions.

For example, You can end it with Barbarian 1/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 2 (+extra rage feat) gives you a silly amount of strength and con while raging. 
OR
Warmind for Augmented Expansion and attacking multiple squares at once.
OR
Stay Warblade and pick up higher level maneuvers.

Offline Captnq

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2014, 01:02:12 PM »
Actually...

I've been working on a particular bit of cheese.

Now, he's only 4th level, but you could easily add a two more wizard levels giving you spontaneous divination.

Now why would you want that? Well, He has:
Initiate of Amauntor - Giving him the ability to spontaneous cast any fire spell on his spell lists (cleric+wiz)
Energy Substitution (Fire) - Which turns all energy spells into fire spells.

Of course, I'm not quite sure if that works, since it turns the spell into fire when the metamagic is applied, so it would require you to spend a full-round action to cast any non fire energy descriptor spell spontaneously.

Or, you could do what I'm planning, which is Also take:
Quote from: Elemental Savant
Elemental Specialty (Ex): The first step toward transcending mortal form requires an elemental savant to
choose her elemental specialty. Upon entering the class, she must select an element and its associated energy type (air = electricity, earth = acid, fire = fire, or water = cold). This choice must match the Energy Substitution feat that the savant selected to gain entry to the prestige class. When the savant casts a spell that normally deals energy damage, its energy descriptor changes to the savant’s chosen energy type, and it deals damage of that energy type instead of its normal energy type.

Since the Class feature changes the spell, all energy spells that do damage will no longer take a full-round to cast.

Now, With a liberal reading of Spontaneous Divination I "know" all clerical divinations, thanks to the Cloister Cleric Dip, I will "know" any wizard divinations I get in my spell book, and I can Cast any Clerical or Sor/Wiz energy damaging spell as fire spell spontaneously, or any non-damaging energy spell as a full-round action.

Oh, and picking up easy metamagic for the Searing Spell. That way every fire spell I do has at least half the damage get through.

Yes, you are fire focused, and you lose a level of wizard advancement, but in exchange you get to pick from a list of approx 250+ Energy Spells and 120+ divination spells at will. Cast Raging Flame liberally and burst into flames via Fire Domain Feat while holding two sprayers full of oil and you'll be one scary pyromaniac Fire Elf. A little nerveskitter will make sure you have a +13 to your initiative, so you're bound to go first.

WHOOSH!

If that doesn't up your chances of survivability, I don't know what will.

Now the armor is something I'm rather proud of, but your DM may not allow it. You might have to substitute something else for the the Drow Chitin. Living metal Dastana and Chahar-aina are a rather cheap way to increase your AC as an arcane spellcaster without any chance of Spell failure. Normally it doesn't go with Drow Chitin, but I could get a Blended Crystal Chain Shirt and have the same ASF with +2 AC. So it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, for me.

Besides, Wearing a suit of Red Bug Armor is so much more cool.

Oh heck, just read everything in the combat equipment section of the EVD that's purple.

As for the rest of the class past 7th, sprinkle with PrCs to taste.
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

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Offline Captnq

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2014, 03:30:00 PM »
Oh, Strange Note...

Take a war spikard and get monkey grip or something and make it out of alchemical Gold. You can get the size up to huge and the alchemical gold increases the size one more so you now wield a two handed weapon (-2 to hit) that does 4d6 damage, but since the spike does the weapon's base damage, it will fire for another 4d6. Since the spikard is loaded like a crossbow, you can buy quickloading and load it up with tumbling Spikes for a total 4d6/4d6+2 damage. Every. Hit.

Of course strength and criticals only add to the base damage (4d6), but still. Smash someone on the head and drive a spike through them at the same time. Working on a dwarf cleric who has this as his shtick.

If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline eleazzaar

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2014, 12:23:00 AM »
(Elan?) Psions with Vigor and Share Pain are known to be fairly survivable.

Everything i know about Psionics (nearly) i learned today.  This looks interesting, but the Psion looks pretty squishy compared to a Psychic Warrior.  But the PsyWar only has one of those powers.  Would it make sense to build a PsyWar with a dip into Psion to get both halves of the Vigor/SharePain equation?  Or there are feats to get access to the powers not normally on your list.  Either way the Slayer PRC sounds like a good way to further develop a Psionic character that's hard to kill.


Actually...

I've been working on a particular bit of cheese.

Now, he's only 4th level, but you could easily add a two more wizard levels giving you spontaneous divination.

You get points for enthusiasm, but that build doesn't fit the parameters in the first post.  He kills things hard, but is a glass cannon, if i'm not mistaken.  I'm looking for something hard to kill.

Offline Gribel

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2014, 06:41:23 AM »
Or there are feats to get access to the powers not normally on your list.
Expanded Knowledge. You would also need Psicrystal Affinity to Share (the) Pain with a Psicrystal as a Psychic Warrior.
Oh, and stinking cloud has to be one of my favorate battlefield spells. Combined with sleet stor, you can shut a group down and keep them shut down, trapped inside a fart. When does that ever get old?

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2014, 08:05:48 AM »
The psion also has a metric ton more power points.  Both work though.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2014, 10:22:12 AM »
There's a fair number of power point recovery mechanics.  It's worth noting that Psions are full casters, though not prepared ones.  It might be fun to jump in and learn a new system, or it might be a headache, ymmv.  Also, given that your group apparently doesn't like ToB or Tome of Magic, you might run into a "psionics is broken cheese!!!" once you do something mildly effective. 

That being said, the Slayer makes a solid psi-gish, and Control Body + Swift Concentration (among other tricks) really seals that deal.  Alternatively, there are few things less killable than a Persistent Spell Divine Caster.  If you're not in love with prepared spellcasting, you can always go Favored Soul. 

Finally, a non-caster option that was touched upon in above posts is the shapeshifter.  A Master of Many Forms with Warshaper and a few other add-ons ends up feeling nigh invulnerable.  You can get amazing saves, immunities, and AC. 

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2014, 11:15:42 AM »
(Elan?) Psions with Vigor and Share Pain are known to be fairly survivable.

Everything i know about Psionics (nearly) i learned today.  This looks interesting, but the Psion looks pretty squishy compared to a Psychic Warrior.  But the PsyWar only has one of those powers.  Would it make sense to build a PsyWar with a dip into Psion to get both halves of the Vigor/SharePain equation?  Or there are feats to get access to the powers not normally on your list.  Either way the Slayer PRC sounds like a good way to further develop a Psionic character that's hard to kill.
Don't be fooled by hit die size. d4 to d8 only averages 2 hit points more per hit die. The psion gets many, many more power points. So you'll be much better able to keep up a fully augmented Vigor (shared with your psicrystal) and Share Pain. That's where most of your capacity to take punishment will come from, not your actual hit points. You'll also be able to afford to keep up a fully augmented Inertial Armor, which will likely be better than any real armor you could afford. Get a darkwood heavy shield (or use the Force Screen power), as it has no armor check penalty, so non-proficiency doesn't matter.

Example: I have a 10th level psion with Linked Power, Hustle, Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Meditation, Vigor, and Share Pain.
1) Share Pain on his Psicrystal basically gives him 50% more hit points
2) Max augmented Vigor basically gives him another 100 hit points (50 THP +50 THP on psicrystal).
3) With Linked Power, he can refresh 70 of those THP every round as a swift action (Hustle + Linked Vigor, use the Hustle to recover your focus).

So if needed, he can take an insane amount of punishment every round for quite a few rounds. Of course, you're going to burn through your power points like mad doing this, but with a psion you can afford to do it for a few rounds. A psiwarrior would be out in no time, even before using anything for offense if he tried this. Ranger 1/Psion 6/Slayer X is typically much stronger than Psiwarrior X (as usual in D&D, full casters eclipse everything else), and the psiwarrior only gets 12 more base hit points on average.
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Offline eleazzaar

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2014, 11:26:01 AM »
Note: after further discussions with the DM, i've altered the "Allowed Sources" in the first post.

Finally, a non-caster option that was touched upon in above posts is the shapeshifter.  A Master of Many Forms with Warshaper and a few other add-ons ends up feeling nigh invulnerable.  You can get amazing saves, immunities, and AC. 
I'd totally be playing that right now if the DM didn't have issues with wild shaping.

Don't be fooled by hit die size. d4 to d8 only averages 2 hit points more per hit die. The psion gets many, many more power points. So you'll be much better able to keep up a fully augmented Vigor (shared with your psicrystal) and Share Pain. That's where most of your capacity to take punishment will come from, not your actual hit points. You'll also be able to afford to keep up a fully augmented Inertial Armor, which will likely be better than any real armor you could afford. Get a darkwood heavy shield (or use the Force Screen power), as it has no armor check penalty, so non-proficiency doesn't matter....
The way our DM calculates HP is that you get automatically get 75% of the max roll (after 1st level), so the Psywar would get double the HP per level (3 vs 6) + Con bonuses.  Still this sounds very cool, and is a top contender.

Is there a recommended discipline?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 11:27:41 AM by eleazzaar »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2014, 11:37:11 AM »
Is there a recommended discipline?
It's not as important as you might imagine... I'd try to pick out your key powers you'd like at each level, then see how many are from each discipline list, and how many of those you feel you just can't wait to get via the Expanded Knowledge feat.

The other factor to consider is class skills, as some disciplines are far better than others for those, depending on what you want there.

The psion handbook(s) can help you decide the details.

Here is a link to my 10th level psion, if you want to check it out. He's a necropolitan, which is from a book not on your list (Libris Mortis), but I think most of the rest of what I used should be available (except for some items, which aren't critical).

The grey elf, which is core, is actually better (IMO) than the sun elf I used, but our game is in FR. If he weren't undead, I'd be tempted to use a different race (gnome, dwarf, human, elan) to avoid the hit to Con. Being an undead changed his hit dice to d12s, and this DM gives everyone max hit points per hit die, so hit points isn't really a problem for me... Oh yeah, and he gave the necropolitan a +1 LA, which lowered his level to 9th.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 11:40:04 AM by phaedrusxy »
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Offline Emanresu

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2014, 12:43:35 PM »
theres 3 ways that I can think of making a pc thats hard to kill

1) tough to kill... hit points/AC/good saves/ immunities
2) stealthy...avoid the offense of your enemies, they cant hit what they cant see, only attack when you have the upper hand
3) be a tier 1 spell caster / manifester with buffs coming out your ears layered in magic items

1 Hexblade
2 Hexblade
3 Hexblade
4 Paladin
5 Paladin
6 Paladin
you got the "calling" after 3rd level, immune to disease, cha to all saves, cha again to all saves vs all magic, mettle = evasion but for any fort or will saves, max bab, d10 h pts, armor & shield and off ya go
after 6th level go Fav Soul, you will have best saves in game a virtual tank

the stealthy route is easily achieved, be a Skulk, hide at full speed no penalty, scout or rogue and the feet that hides from alt sights?


SKULK RACIAL TRAITS
• +4 Dexterity, –2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma: Skulks are
agile and graceful, but have weak wills and subdued
personalities.
• Humanoid (human): Skulks are humanoid creatures with
the human subtype.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, skulks have no special
bonuses or penalties due to size.
• Skulk base land speed is 30 feet.
• Racial Hit Dice: A skulk begins with two levels of
humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack
bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0,
Ref +3, and Will +0.
• Racial Skills: A skulk’s humanoid levels give it skill points
equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Hide
(Dex) and Move Silently (Dex).
• Racial Feats: A skulk’s humanoid levels give it one feat.
• +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks and a +15 racial
bonus on Hide checks: Skulks excel at keeping to the
shadows. These bonuses apply only when a skulk is wearing
light armor or no armor.
• Innate Nondetection (Su): Skulks are difficult to detect
by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance,
locate creature, detect spells, and items such as a crystal
ball. If a divination is attempted upon a skulk, the caster
of the divination must succeed on a DC 20 caster level
check.
• Peerless Camouflage (Ex): Skulks can move at full speed
(and can even run) while hiding, taking no penalties on
Hide checks due to movement.
• Trackless Path (Ex): The DC of any Survival check to
follow the trail of a skulk is increased by 10.
• Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages:
Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, and Orc.
• Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass skulk’s rogue class
does not count when determining whether he takes an
experience point penalty for multiclassing.
• Level adjustment +1.




Archivist or Erudite are good adventuring, go Psychic Theurge and be both, level loss is a bitch but you will have access to almost every power, divine spell & arcane spells in the game. You can hand pick all the spells/powers you want = this is your strength / survivability. Sacrifice higher level spells for access to the biggest list in the game...after re reading your wants, this ain't going to be a good idea.

Your party doesn't have a big boomer, sure a general wiz may have 1 or 2 spells memorized, but you could specialize in a small list... a Wilder focused on blowing shit up!  The best defense is a good offense. Choose the name Nova and be done with it! !

Offline eleazzaar

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2014, 12:15:39 PM »
theres 3 ways that I can think of making a pc thats hard to kill

1) tough to kill... hit points/AC/good saves/ immunities
2) stealthy...avoid the offense of your enemies, they cant hit what they cant see, only attack when you have the upper hand
3) be a tier 1 spell caster / manifester with buffs coming out your ears layered in magic items

The skulk does look cool, but we already have a rogue.

Also a significant amount of the action happens without a chance to prepare or after most spells are expended.  Not always, but quite often the battle is not on the terms of the PC's choosing.  So i'm most interested in #1, though combining it with #3 is great.


1 Hexblade
2 Hexblade
3 Hexblade
4 Paladin
5 Paladin
6 Paladin
you got the "calling" after 3rd level, immune to disease, cha to all saves, cha again to all saves vs all magic, mettle = evasion but for any fort or will saves, max bab, d10 h pts, armor & shield and off ya go
after 6th level go Fav Soul, you will have best saves in game a virtual tank
I really doubt the DM would let me get away with Hexblade & Paladin in a build, unless i switched my alignment gradually over actual sessions.  So which would you say is better for my purposes, a Hexblade dip or a Paladin dip?


phaedrusxy:

I don't have psionics down yet. Does the vigor/share pain thing work if the party is ambushed or surprised?


Also i ran across the Wild Dwarf race in RoF.  It is actually small sized, and has a bit of fire resistance, better poison saves, and a +4 vs disease, but still isn't slowed by armor.  Seems like a good choice for hard-to-kill builds that can't take the mongrel folk's hit to IQ or CHA.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 12:25:36 PM by eleazzaar »

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2014, 12:21:10 PM »
Share Pain lasts for hours per level. Vigor would take an action to bring up, as it only lasts minutes per level.
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Offline Emanresu

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2014, 01:42:21 PM »
Hexblade lawful neutral
pc received the calling or had some experience that made him re think his life...some sorta moral epiphany. This is no stretch at all.

about the Hexblade 3 / Paladin 3, I think your saves would be, 5/2/5, plus you CHA which should be 20 = 10/7/10 + attributes vs spells or any magical effects spell like abilities you would be 15 / 12 / 15 + attributes so 17/14/17 would be highly likely for your saves at 6th level and you would have mettle which is GOING to help you because your more than likely going to make 99% of your saves at this level and taking secondary damage or suffering a lesser effect with will and fort saves is very VERY common (spells, poisons, ability damage etc) vest of resistance +2 = 19 /16/17 vs magical effects is hands down amazing! Add on Aasimar w/ LA buy off or just go lesser Aasimar for LA+0

you wanted tough to kill, here it is, dare someone to do better, given the parameters including the lack of queso!




............about the Skulk I was thinking more along the lines of rogue to Avenger (a non evil even good aligned assassin) ultimately considering the Slayer of Domiel? Would the death attack stack...anyways more of a killer, two wep style, deft attack feat, craven, imp fient and just murder the crap outa stuff. Get a lot of those skill tricks, many are awesome and better than most feats! Surprising Riposte feat combined with the skill trick mosquitos bite and a bluff thru the roof = you will kill many and most wont even know they are dying as they fall............I am currently having a blast with this very combo! Albeit gestalt with Beguiler and not Skulk.






Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Help build a Character that's Really Hard to Kill
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2014, 03:21:08 PM »
There are several alternate paladins.  There is Paladin of Freedom, Paladin of Tyranny, and Paladin of Slaughter in the SRD/Unearthed Arcana for all the other extreme alignments.  Dragon Magazine has Paladins with neutral components.

Without access to those variants, Hexblade's "Any nongood." and Paladin's "Lawful Good" alignment does make it impossible to take together.

I must say that Paladin of Tyranny + Hexblade combo conveys the flavor of creepy dark knight super-well.