GM is saying swift actions and immediate actions are the same deal

[Solo]

Have you been at this for 8 hours straight? That is some impressive dedication.

I am fueled by hatred, spite, and the tears of my enemies.

[Raineh Daze]

I go to sleep, then when I wake up this has ballooned. Amazing.

[skydragonknight]

Have you been at this for 8 hours straight? That is some impressive dedication.

I am fueled by hatred, spite, and the tears of my enemies.

No Gatorade?

[Solo]

Shhh, you'll give away the formula.

[SolEiji]

Shhh, you'll give away the formula.

There is no better source of electrolytes.  Try our new orphan flavor.

[Raineh Daze]

Just for convenience sake, here is a screen shot of the almighty page 7.

Well, that's the best quote so far.

[Stratovarius]

Shhh, you'll give away the formula.

There is no better source of electrolytes.  Try our new orphan flavor.

I personally prefer Tears of the Damned. The sulfur aftertaste is excellent.

[NuSair]

Just for convenience sake, here is a screen shot of the almighty page 7.

Well, that's the best quote so far.

  - thanks!

I disagree with the DMs reasoning (but, honestly, it is his game and what he says goes. I think it bad form for players to argue things past a certain point), but I feel there is a point there, which I made on the other thread. That is, when do actions reset?

Most of the people I've seen post, say that if you use a swift action during your turn, that immediately after your turn is over, you can take an immediate action. The quote the DM was making is the right one, but he was arguing the wrong point. It's here:

During a normal round, you can perform a standard action
and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action,
and as many free actions as your DM allows.

That is a direct quote from the Rules Compendium. This is just the start of the issue. If you read in the PHB and other sources, there appears to be two different definitions for round.

The first is from the highest initiative to the lowest initiative. (Normal Round?)

The second is given more as an example, but is from the start of your initiative in a round to the start of your initiative in the next round.

The problem I am having with looking at these rules, is that taking a swift action during your turn and immediately following with an immediate action isn't allowed with either version. And honestly, I am mildly surprised with all the rules lawyers running around, this hasn't come up before.

For me, I am trying to simplify it more than that, and just worry more about when a players actions reset. Attacks of Opportunity are similar and worded that you can make one AoO per round.

For a player to take a swift action during his turn and then take an immediate action after his turn is up, would require a players actions to reset after his turn was done. None of the ways a round is described in any book that I can fine does that. Even in the start of combat. You are considered flat footed until your first initiative. That would seem to reinforce the idea that a players action pool (for lack of a better term) is reset at the start of each players turn and not at the start of a round. (NOTE: some characters are never flat footed, to me, that would just give them in essence a free immediate action before their 1st initiative, allow them to AoO, ect).

So, how do you define a 'Normal Round'. It's referenced, but isn't really defined. Because if you didn't take a swift action during your turn in a round, in the next round before your turn, if you were to take an immediate action, then when your turn comes up, you couldn't take a swift action because you already took an immediate action that round (refer back to text- During a normal round, you can perform ....an immediate action or a swift action...). It's clear from the Rules Compendium that you cannot take an immediate and swift action in the same round. Honestly, that point really can't be refuted.

So, the question comes down to, is a NORMAL ROUND from highest to lowest init or is it the start of a players turn to the next start of a players turn.

In either case, a player cannot take a swift action during their turn and take an immediate action after their turn (UNLESS they are the lowest initiative and you consider a normal round to be highest to lowest initiative).

[NuSair]

I looked over it and I think it was still an issue, but I have evidence how a round is from your turn to the end of your next turn.  Look at True Strike.  It lasts 1 round and you're suppose to cast it, then next round attack someone.  If a round ended at the beginning of your turn you could never use that spell, so it clearly ends at the end of your turn.  That's when things reset, durations tick down, and so forth.

That is incorrect, here is the text on true strike:

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

It doesn't last one round, it last until either your next single attack roll or the end of the next round. It doesn't say the end of this round, it says the end of the next round.

[SolEiji]

I looked over it and I think it was still an issue, but I have evidence how a round is from your turn to the end of your next turn.  Look at True Strike.  It lasts 1 round and you're suppose to cast it, then next round attack someone.  If a round ended at the beginning of your turn you could never use that spell, so it clearly ends at the end of your turn.  That's when things reset, durations tick down, and so forth.

That is incorrect, here is the text on true strike:

You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

It doesn't last one round, it last until either your next single attack roll or the end of the next round. It doesn't say the end of this round, it says the end of the next round.

(EDIT: Oops wait, nm.  Original post had misread something.  Please ignore.)

[linklord231]

If the issue is in the wording of the Rules Compendium, I'd like to point out that the Rules Compendium is officially obsolete.  It is superseded by the reprinted editions of the Core Rulebooks.  The intro text on page 5 of the Compendium only grants authority over preexisting rulebooks.  The reprints were not preexisting at the time the Rules Compendium was printed. 

[ketaro]

(click to show/hide)

Just for convenience sake, here is a screen shot of the almighty page 7.

Well, that's the best quote so far.

  - thanks!

I disagree with the DMs reasoning (but, honestly, it is his game and what he says goes. I think it bad form for players to argue things past a certain point), but I feel there is a point there, which I made on the other thread. That is, when do actions reset?

Most of the people I've seen post, say that if you use a swift action during your turn, that immediately after your turn is over, you can take an immediate action. The quote the DM was making is the right one, but he was arguing the wrong point. It's here:

During a normal round, you can perform a standard action
and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
You can also perform an immediate action or a swift action,
and as many free actions as your DM allows.

That is a direct quote from the Rules Compendium. This is just the start of the issue. If you read in the PHB and other sources, there appears to be two different definitions for round.

The first is from the highest initiative to the lowest initiative. (Normal Round?)

The second is given more as an example, but is from the start of your initiative in a round to the start of your initiative in the next round.

The problem I am having with looking at these rules, is that taking a swift action during your turn and immediately following with an immediate action isn't allowed with either version. And honestly, I am mildly surprised with all the rules lawyers running around, this hasn't come up before.

For me, I am trying to simplify it more than that, and just worry more about when a players actions reset. Attacks of Opportunity are similar and worded that you can make one AoO per round.

For a player to take a swift action during his turn and then take an immediate action after his turn is up, would require a players actions to reset after his turn was done. None of the ways a round is described in any book that I can fine does that. Even in the start of combat. You are considered flat footed until your first initiative. That would seem to reinforce the idea that a players action pool (for lack of a better term) is reset at the start of each players turn and not at the start of a round. (NOTE: some characters are never flat footed, to me, that would just give them in essence a free immediate action before their 1st initiative, allow them to AoO, ect).

So, how do you define a 'Normal Round'. It's referenced, but isn't really defined. Because if you didn't take a swift action during your turn in a round, in the next round before your turn, if you were to take an immediate action, then when your turn comes up, you couldn't take a swift action because you already took an immediate action that round (refer back to text- During a normal round, you can perform ....an immediate action or a swift action...). It's clear from the Rules Compendium that you cannot take an immediate and swift action in the same round. Honestly, that point really can't be refuted.

So, the question comes down to, is a NORMAL ROUND from highest to lowest init or is it the start of a players turn to the next start of a players turn.

In either case, a player cannot take a swift action during their turn and take an immediate action after their turn (UNLESS they are the lowest initiative and you consider a normal round to be highest to lowest initiative).

Why does it have to have anything to do with when a round ends or when your actions available reset?
It doesn't.

Taking the immediate action removes the ability to use a swift action on your next turn. That is explicitly written out in the description for immediate actions.
It also is explicitly and very straight-forwardly said that immediate actions ARE swift actions and use up your swift action IF you use an immediate action when it IS your actual turn.
Using a swift action on your turn does not remove your ability to use a swift action on your next turn, thus allowing you the ability to still sacrifice your NEXT turn's swift action to use an immediate action AFTER your turn in which you used a swift action and before your next turn begins.
This is where is turns into stupid: This does mean you can use an immediate action on your turn and then use an immediate action after your turn ends, because immediate actions become swift actions instead when used during your turn. That is pretty dang stupid though despite how RAW it is, I'd throw that out personally if it came up in my game

I honestly, between both this thread and the other one on enworld, can not fathom how there could be anything to debate on this clear cut rule set.

References: Wizards definition for immediate actions
Wizards definition for swift actions

[NuSair]

If the issue is in the wording of the Rules Compendium, I'd like to point out that the Rules Compendium is officially obsolete.  It is superseded by the reprinted editions of the Core Rulebooks.  The intro text on page 5 of the Compendium only grants authority over preexisting rulebooks.  The reprints were not preexisting at the time the Rules Compendium was printed.

I don't have the hard copy or a PDF of the reprints. While that seems to be the case since according to the advertisement it says they contain the latest errata, it is hard to make a case either way without the text.

[X-Codes]

I believe much of what's in the revised core rulebooks is also in the current SRD?  In that case, we've got http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

No mention of "rounds" anywhere.

[Unbeliever]

I'm sorry that the OP had such an acrimonious gaming experience.  I just glanced at the EnWorld posts and it doesn't sound pleasant. 

Semi-Tangent:  I've always found the swift/immediate action interaction, namely the whole "if you took a swift action already this round and then you take an immediate action later, it steals your swift action for the next one" thing, to be cumbersome. 

I've toyed with the idea of just separating swift and immediate actions.  So, in theory, you could take a swift and an immediate action in each turn.  Assuming players are fairly well-behaved in our games, do people think this would wreck the world?  I don't usually see too many immediate actions flying around the table as it is.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

4e did a decent job with the EONT vs EONR difference.
However it's probably too fine a hair splitting
and I haven't looked at it in a looooong time ...  


d20srd has the Swift/Immediate stuff from XPH.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions
The language in the Immediate entry is clear enough.
_{idk how it's a problem, but that's just me}

edit --- and of course y'all already covered that.

[X-Codes]

I'm sorry that the OP had such an acrimonious gaming experience.  I just glanced at the EnWorld posts and it doesn't sound pleasant. 

Semi-Tangent:  I've always found the swift/immediate action interaction, namely the whole "if you took a swift action already this round and then you take an immediate action later, it steals your swift action for the next one" thing, to be cumbersome. 

I've toyed with the idea of just separating swift and immediate actions.  So, in theory, you could take a swift and an immediate action in each turn.  Assuming players are fairly well-behaved in our games, do people think this would wreck the world?  I don't usually see too many immediate actions flying around the table as it is.

It's not as simple as that, because you have to decide how to handle using Immediate actions during a player's turn.

I don't see it as all that complicated.  If you don't use a Swift action on your turn, then it's wasted.  If you use an Immediate Action before your turn, then you don't get a Swift action for that turn.

[MrRoboto]

I went to look up rounds and turns in the SRD and guess what I found!

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.

That's right! It's our old friend pg7 top left!

But he's looking a bit different. Is that a new haircut?

You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

No, but he lost some weight! Specifically, the words "swift or immediate action."

Looks like our long national nightmare is over.

[eggynack]

I went to look up rounds and turns in the SRD and guess what I found!

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.

That's right! It's our old friend pg7 top left!

But he's looking a bit different. Is that a new haircut?

You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

No, but he lost some weight! Specifically, the words "swift or immediate action."

Looks like our long national nightmare is over.

I'm not really sure what you're arguing for here. If you're trying to say that this proves that you can't take swift/immediate actions, well, you can. If I really need to prove this, look over here. Specifically, note the sentence, " You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions." So, y'know, there ya go.

[MrRoboto]

It makes sense if you're following the enworld thread Solo linked to.

Kexmal (the DM mentioned in the OP) has a dire bee in his bonnet over the first sentence in the rules compendium section on action types. Or, as he likes to call it, "pg7 top left."

He says "pg7 top left" a lot, with religious fervor.

That passage is identical to the one I quoted from the SRD except for a very minor detail. "Pg7 top left's" second sentence reads

"You can also perform a swift or immediate action and as many free actions as your DM allows."

It's that "swift or immediate action" (it's an EXCLUSIVE or!) that Kexmal insists is the final and only word on swift and immediate actions, over ruling every other published source and even its own descriptions of those actions later on that same page.

Which is why I wanted to draw attention to the SRD, a more recently updated source than the rules compendium, and the exact copy of that sentence with the exception of the confusing and contradictory text. In context, it strongly suggests that "pg7 top left" was a typo or oversight.